Repentance and Keeping Commandments is only the beginning of salvation.

[ATG]

No one has said one who is justified continues to transgress without repentance; only that obedience and repentance are results of salvation and not its cause.

No need to change the subject.

So you preach the gospel of salvation with repentance and no more transgressions, but only obedience to the commandments of the Lord?

You've repented with your salvation, and not transgressing His commandments, but only doing good now?

That is good. Amen.

 

[ATG]

Romans 4:2-3 KJV - 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

This is before he offered up his son Isaac

Correct. Not yet justified by works.

Jas 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

This is when he offered up his son Isaac. Now justified by works.

So, your point is?

 

[Cameron143]

So you preach the gospel of salvation with repentance and no more transgressions, but only obedience to the commandments of the Lord?

You've repented with your salvation, and not transgressing His commandments, but only doing good now?

That is good. Amen.

This was always true of me.

So you have come to understand that salvation is solely of grace, and that repentance and obedience result from salvation and are not its cause?

 

[ATG]

Romans 4:2-3 KJV - 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

This is before he offered up his son Isaac

Good observation, which leads to the explanation of why all works of the believer do not justify, but only certain works of faith toward God.

Rom 4:1
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

We see here the time that Abraham was not justified by works, which was before he offered up Issac. For at that time, if Abraham were justified by works of the flesh, then he could glory in his circumcised flesh.

Jas 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

We see here the time that Abraham was justified by works, when he offered up Isaac. For at that time, Abraham was justified by works of faith, and he could glory in God.

And so, works of the law and keeping of commandments are only the beginning of faith, and only works of faith in God's word of promise justifies the believer...

Heb 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

 

[ATG]

This was always true of me.

Amen to that brother. So, you were never arguing that believers, who continue to transgress God's commandment, are saved by their faith alone.

You are only arguing that keeping commandments before faith toward God, does not gain salvation by reward.

Totally agree, now that we are clear. However, I've never argued any salvation for reward by works of law before faith. Here's my opening arguments again:

"Transgressing the commandments of God must cease, in order to enter into the kingdom of God."

This is not saying we must keep commandments to enter the kingdom of God, but only that transgressions must cease at the door.

"No one is rewarded for keeping the commandments alone, since trasngression is death."

Clearly, keeping commandments before faith does not give life by grace.

"Once again, the beginning of faith toward God and salvation, is repentance and keeping His commandments."

And so in context, repentance and keeping commandments is with salvation by faith from the beginning, not before.

So, I don't see the reason for any counter-argument in the thread, of keeping commandments before faith and salvation of God.

[I]Cameron143[/I]​

The problem isn't obedience or disobedience. The reaction is to obedience being necessary for salvation verses being an outcome of salvation.

I can see the implied problem being only with keeping commandments before faith, is rewarded with justification and resurrection unto life.

However, in fairness, your quote here is in the context of the usual 'faith alone' Christians, that reject repentance and keeping commandments as a necessary part of salvation; So that even with unrepented transgressions a person is saved and justified by their faith alone.

Which we don't agree with...

 

[Cameron143]

Amen to that brother. So, you were never arguing that believers, who continue to transgress God's commandment, are saved by their faith alone.

You are only arguing that keeping commandments before faith toward God, does not gain salvation by reward.

Totally agree, now that we are clear. However, I've never argued any salvation for reward by works of law before faith. Here's my opening arguments again:

"Transgressing the commandments of God must cease, in order to enter into the kingdom of God."

This is not saying we must keep commandments to enter the kingdom of God, but only that transgressions must cease at the door.

"No one is rewarded for keeping the commandments alone, since trasngression is death."

Clearly, keeping commandments before faith does not give life by grace.

"Once again, the beginning of faith toward God and salvation, is repentance and keeping His commandments."

And so in context, repentance and keeping commandments is with salvation by faith from the beginning, not before.

So, I don't see the reason for any counter-argument in the thread, of keeping commandments before faith and salvation of God.

[I]Cameron143[/I]​

The problem isn't obedience or disobedience. The reaction is to obedience being necessary for salvation verses being an outcome of salvation.

I can see the implied problem being only with keeping commandments before faith, is rewarded with justification and resurrection unto life.

However, in fairness, your quote here is in the context of the usual 'faith alone' Christians, that reject repentance and keeping commandments as a necessary part of salvation; So that even with unrepented transgressions a person is saved and justified by their faith alone.

Which we don't agree with...

A person is justified by grace alone. But where one finds true justification, one will inevitably find repentance and obedience.

Read Ezekiel 36:26-27. What does God say is the cause of obedience?

 

[ATG]

So you have come to understand that salvation is solely of grace, and that repentance and obedience result from salvation and are not its cause?

So long as this is just a matter of the chicken and the egg, as you say, then Scripturally, no.

Mark{1:15}
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts{3:19}
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

The scriptures' gospel clearly writes repentance to salvation, not salvation to repentance.

Since repentance is always preached for faith, conversion, and salvation, then repentance cannot be a result of salvation, especially not after salvation as in later down the road...

However, in Scripture neither is salvation a result of repentance, but rather the necessary accompaniment:

Heb 6:9
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

The accompaniment being specifically repentance and faith toward God:

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Therefore, 'resulting' is the offending word in the gospel of repentance and salvation by grace. Even as faith 'alone' has no Scriptural part in salvation by grace, neither does resultant repentance.

And we may certainly also say, even as the Word and God is one with each other in the beginning of creation, so also is repentance and salvation one with each other in the beginning of a new creature in Christ Jesus.

Neither are one without the other, nor either being the 'result' of one another, as in only coming later than the other.

And so, it's best not to say resultant pertaining to repentance and salvation. And at least clarify that neither comes 'later', as if one is ever without the other:

Even as the Word was with God in the beginning, so also repentance is with salvation in the beginning, and neither without the other at any time.

However justification doesn't end there, as the title says: Repentance and keeping commandments is only the beginning of salvation, not the ending without also doing the word of faith, as Abraham offered up Isaac to God:

Heb 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

And we can say again, so also the Word made flesh was only the beginning of forgiving transgressions, not the ending without also dying for sins by word of the Father:

Luk 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

 

[Cameron143]

So long as this is just a matter of the chicken and the egg, as you say, then Scripturally, no.

Mark{1:15}
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts{3:19}
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

The scriptures' gospel clearly writes repentance to salvation, not salvation to repentance.

Since repentance is always preached for faith, conversion, and salvation, then repentance cannot be a result of salvation, especially not after salvation as in later down the road...

However, in Scripture neither is salvation a result of repentance, but rather the necessary accompaniment:

Heb 6:9
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

The accompaniment being specifically repentance and faith toward God:

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Therefore, 'resulting' is the offending word in the gospel of repentance and salvation by grace. Even as faith 'alone' has no Scriptural part in salvation by grace, neither does resultant repentance.

And we may certainly also say, even as the Word and God is one with each other in the beginning of creation, so also is repentance and salvation one with each other in the beginning of a new creature in Christ Jesus.

Neither are one without the other, nor either being the 'result' of one another, as in only coming later than the other.

And so, it's best not to say resultant pertaining to repentance and salvation. And at least clarify that neither comes 'later', as if one is ever without the other:

Even as the Word was with God in the beginning, so also repentance is with salvation in the beginning, and neither without the other at any time.

However justification doesn't end there, as the title says: Repentance and keeping commandments is only the beginning of salvation, not the ending without also doing the word of faith, as Abraham offered up Isaac to God:

Heb 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

And we can say again, so also the Word made flesh was only the beginning of forgiving transgressions, not the ending without also dying for sins by word of the Father:

Luk 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Right, a godly sorrow. In other words, a sorrow whose genesis is God.

You didn't answer my question: according to Ezekiel 36:26-27, what does scripture say is the cause of obedience?

 

[ATG]

A person is justified by grace alone. But where one finds true justification, one will inevitably find repentance and obedience.

Inevitably find repentance from all transgressions, and obedience to God always.

Unfortunately, due to much parsing by OSAS Christians, this clarification is necessary. They also preach 'resultant' repentance and obedience in part, but not God's commanded repentance from all sins and trespasses at once.

You agree then as before? the 'inevitability' is finding only obedience to God, and not disobedience also to His commandments?

Read Ezekiel 36:26-27. What does God say is the cause of obedience?

Eze 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Read Ezekiel 18:30-31. What does God say is the cause of giving a new spirit and heart?

 

[Cameron143]

Inevitably find repentance from all transgressions, and obedience to God always.

Unfortunately, due to much parsing by OSAS Christians, this clarification is necessary. They also preach 'resultant' repentance and obedience in part, but not God's commanded repentance from all sins and trespasses at once.

You agree then as before? the 'inevitability' is finding only obedience to God, and not disobedience also to His commandments?




Eze 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Read Ezekiel 18:30-31. What does God say is the cause of giving a new spirit and heart?

Your verses teach nothing concerning the cause of repentance or obedience; only that it is commanded. No cause is given for the new spirit and heart.

You still haven't answered: what is the cause of obedience according to Ezekiel 36:26-27.

Do you ever sin?

 

[ATG]

Right, a godly sorrow. In other words, a sorrow whose genesis is God.

Exactly. With a repentance granted by God:

Acts{11:18}
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the nations granted repentance unto life.
And so, we agree: The godly sorrow leading to any man's repentance and salvation and life, is all granted by grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Therefore, no man can boast of keeping His commandments and good works of faith, with all obedience justified by grace.

Eph{2:8}
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, that any man should boast.

No man should boast of his works and service to God, that bring Him glory by Jesus Christ:

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1Co 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.\

Mat 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

[ATG]

You still haven't answered: what is the cause of obedience according to Ezekiel 36:26-27.

??
Eze 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Isn't the answer in the verse? A new spirit and heart given by God.

Read Ezekiel 18:30-31. What does God say is the cause of giving a new spirit and heart?

 

[Cameron143]

??
Eze 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Isn't the answer in the verse? A new spirit and heart given by God.

Read Ezekiel 18:30-31. What does God say is the cause of giving a new spirit and heart?

The verses don't say what causes God to give a new spirit and heart.

 

[Magenta]

Ezekiel 36 v 27 I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[ATG]

The verses don't say what causes God to give a new spirit and heart.

??

Ezek 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

And child can see Ezek 36 is obedience by a new spirit and heart, and Ezek 18 is a new spirit and heart by repentance from all transgressions.

Do you still object to Scriptures' repentance to salvation with a new heart and spirit, rather than salvation with a new spirit and heart 'resulting' in repentance?

Or, is it the repentance from all transgressions, that God only grants to receive a new heart and spirit?

So, I'll ask again in your own words:

Does Jesus' salvation 'result' in repentance from all transgressions, and keeping His commandments without disobedience? Or, can Jesus' salvation also result in repentance in part with only partial obedience to God?

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1Jo 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Do the saints in Christ Jesus keep His commandments without transgressions, or are their also justified Christians, that do transgress His commandments?

Is it justification by faith with keeping the Lord's commandments, or is there ever justification by faith alone without keeping His commandments?

 

[ATG]

Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

1Jo 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

And so, we see here that once again, keeping the commandments of the Lord is the only beginning of salvation by grace, but is also only the beginning: We must keep the commandments and go on with Jesus to please God in all our works of love and faith.

Mat 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

1Jo 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Abiding in Jesus and walking as walked walked is not just keeping His commandments alone. But also pleasing God in all our works of faith, that are after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

1Th 4:1
Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

We are saved from transgressing God's commandments, but not justified to remain only babes in Christ Jesus.

And of course, transgressors are only children of wrath, not newborn babes in Christ Jesus, much less grown sons with Jesus doing those things that are pleasing in His sight...

 

[Cameron143]

??

Ezek 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

And child can see Ezek 36 is obedience by a new spirit and heart, and Ezek 18 is a new spirit and heart by repentance from all transgressions.

Do you still object to Scriptures' repentance to salvation with a new heart and spirit, rather than salvation with a new spirit and heart 'resulting' in repentance?

Or, is it the repentance from all transgressions, that God only grants to receive a new heart and spirit?

So, I'll ask again in your own words:

Does Jesus' salvation 'result' in repentance from all transgressions, and keeping His commandments without disobedience? Or, can Jesus' salvation also result in repentance in part with only partial obedience to God?

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1Jo 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Do the saints in Christ Jesus keep His commandments without transgressions, or are their also justified Christians, that do transgress His commandments?

Is it justification by faith with keeping the Lord's commandments, or is there ever justification by faith alone without keeping His commandments?

The verses are dealing with 2 different things. In the first case, it is God who not only giving the new spirit and heart as well as His Spirit which causes a change of nature in the nature of the individual. This is the new covenant promise. This is referring to salvation.

In the latter verses, God is calling His covenant people back into right relationship with Him. This is repentance and rededication.

Only God can do the first. Only man needs to do the second.

 

[ATG]

The verses are dealing with 2 different things.

Different but working together: The first is repentance from all transgressions, and the next is receiving a new heart and spirit to obey God: both being granted by God unto life.

In the first case, it is God who not only giving the new spirit and heart as well as His Spirit which causes a change of nature in the nature of the individual. This is the new covenant promise. This is referring to salvation.

Which is also for all the nations by the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, not only the nation of the Jews that slew Him.

Acts{11:17}
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Whether it be for the heathen turning to God, or it be for the disobedient son turning from the Father; God would still have all men come to repentance and life in the Spirit of Christ.

Luke{15:24}
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

In the latter verses, God is calling His covenant people back into right relationship with Him. This is repentance and rededication.

True again. Repentance to receive a new heart and spirit, is not only for the heathen, but also for the sons that transgress as Adam.

Whether it be Jews of old that slew the Lord of glory, of Christians crucifying Him afresh by transgression, we can repent anew and be restored to life in Christ Jesus:

Rom 11:18
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

1Jo 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
As with the body of Christ, there is no difference between Jew and Greek, but only obedience to Christ; So also with the transgressors, there is no difference between Christian, Jew, and Heathen, but only repentance from transgressions...

Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Rom 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Even if the just living by faith turn back to unjust transgressions, it doesn't mean that the gift and calling to repentance is taken away without hope.

Them that do turn back are as them that do transgress, and Jesus Christ is still the advocate and propitiation for the sins of all transgressors without respect of persons. By the spirit of grace any transgressor can repent unto life, whether unbelieving Jew, disobedient Christian, and lost heathen:

1Jo 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Only God can do the first. Only man needs to do the second.

Exactly. Only God can grant repentance to salvation, and only man can repent of transgressions for salvation from sins and trespasses.

Jesus Christ can die for sins, and is glad by resurrection to grant repentance, but He cannot repent for the transgressors.

 

[Cameron143]

Different but working together: The first is repentance from all transgressions, and the next is receiving a new heart and spirit to obey God: both being granted by God unto life.



Which is also for all the nations by the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, not only the nation of the Jews that slew Him.

Acts{11:17}
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Whether it be for the heathen turning to God, or it be for the disobedient son turning from the Father; God would still have all men come to repentance and life in the Spirit of Christ.

Luke{15:24}
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

True again. Repentance to receive a new heart and spirit, is not only for the heathen, but also for the sons that transgress as Adam.

Whether it be Jews of old that slew the Lord of glory, of Christians crucifying Him afresh by transgression, we can repent anew and be restored to life in Christ Jesus:

Rom 11:18
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

1Jo 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
As with the body of Christ, there is no difference between Jew and Greek, but only obedience to Christ; So also with the transgressors, there is no difference between Christian, Jew, and Heathen, but only repentance from transgressions...

Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Rom 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Even if the just living by faith turn back to unjust transgressions, it doesn't mean that the gift and calling to repentance is taken away without hope.

Them that do turn back are as them that do transgress, and Jesus Christ is still the advocate and propitiation for the sins of all transgressors without respect of persons. By the spirit of grace any transgressor can repent unto life, whether unbelieving Jew, disobedient Christian, and lost heathen:

1Jo 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.




Exactly. Only God can grant repentance to salvation, and only man can repent of transgressions for salvation from sins and trespasses.

Jesus Christ can die for sins, and is glad by resurrection to grant repentance, but He cannot repent for the transgressors.

Wrong. In the second instance, God is calling upon those in covenant with Him to something they could do. In the first, God is performing the activity.

 

[wattie]

Correct. Not yet justified by works.

Jas 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

This is when he offered up his son Isaac. Now justified by works.

So, your point is?

Different type of justification. That is a work acceptable in God's eyes. Not to do with receiving eternal life