Agree impossible to answer to know a person"s state of mind at those last breaths, yet I would qualify to certain OSAS believers not all.
Some do know unconditional election is not supported by scripture.
Was Judas Iscariot saved, or was he not?
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Agree impossible to answer to know a person"s state of mind at those last breaths, yet I would qualify to certain OSAS believers not all.
Some do know unconditional election is not supported by scripture.
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passion84god
Guest
When Jesus says that it would have been better for someone if they had never been born, you can be certain that they are not saved. How is this even a question?
If you are speaking about many Calvinists, that may be true of election.
Just so you know there's another POV, many Evangelicals, non-denominational and Baptists believe in the gift of eternal life is paid by God and received by faith with no merit. All who are saved are the elect, but that is based upon for knowledge rather than God's choice to chose for them.
Faith is not a work, however when you mix things like water baptism, obedience to the law (aka repent of sins), or giving your life to Christ as essential to salvation, that makes the object of faith the sinner rather than the Savior.
Judas turned from his sins to the point of utter regret and despair. He took back the money. Sadly, there's no indication that work of repenting of sins saved him.
I believe he was never saved to begin with. He was like so many people, a disciple but an unbeliever.
Doomed to destruction is not what I would call saved.
Obviously Jesus knew what He was talking about...
Was there regeneration/salvation prior to the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus?
Well, Jesus before His death and resurrection told Nicodemus, "You must be born again." He didn't add, "....but you'll have to wait until after My crucifixion and resurrection."
He was pointing forward, this became a real time reality after the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.
That seems to me to be reading something into the Bible that isn't there. How would Nicodemus know that being born again was not (in your view) to become a reality until after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus? Here is the account, and not one mention of a delay:
(Joh 3:3 NKJV) Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
(Joh 3:4) Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
(Joh 3:5) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
(Joh 3:6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(Joh 3:7) Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
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passion84god
Guest
There is more than enough evidence in the New Testament that proves Judas was not saved, and there very well may be even more evidence in the Old Testament. Peter had this to say about Judas:
Peter quoted two passages of scripture from the book of Psalms, Psalm 69:25 and Psalm 109:8, and he attributed them both to Judas. Here are those two bold-faced citations in their surrounding contexts:
25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.
13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the Lord; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
15 Let them be before the Lord continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
16 Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.
17 As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.
18 As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.
19 Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually.
20 Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the Lord, and of them that speak evil against my soul.
That doesn't sound like somebody who was saved to me.
Acts 1:20
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.Peter quoted two passages of scripture from the book of Psalms, Psalm 69:25 and Psalm 109:8, and he attributed them both to Judas. Here are those two bold-faced citations in their surrounding contexts:
Psalm 69:24-28
24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
Psalm 109:6-20
6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.
13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the Lord; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
15 Let them be before the Lord continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
16 Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.
17 As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.
18 As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.
19 Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually.
20 Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the Lord, and of them that speak evil against my soul.
That doesn't sound like somebody who was saved to me.
Genesis 4
And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.
26And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
Romans 10
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Think about it.
Salvation has never been meritorious according to works.
God revealed Himself to mankind more and more through history.
From the covering garments to the acceptable sacrifice of the lamb that Able offered, they all pointed to the substitutionary atonement.
Calling upon Him in faith has been the prescribed way.
While your conclusion is correct, Judas' actions and subsequent actions revealed he was not in Christ.
Judas obviously the "son of perdition" that was prophesied about....
Meaning a minimum of 600+ years before he was born....he was known precisely to God as the betraying weasel he was.
However.....
Judas was there when Jesus walked on water, made the blind to see, raised the dead to life, lame walk and the thousands of other miracles Jesus performed.
So....what we instantly become uncomfortable with is that Judas knew, believed, and understood that Jesus was the Son of God....of that there could be no doubt. Trusted by the others in that belief....to the point of carrying the money.
Jesus himself vouched for Judas by empowering him, along with the others, to perform miracles in his name....meaning Judas healed people of all sorts of physical maladies himself using Jesus's name.
But....Judas is the Son of Perdition......
And we grow VERY uncomfortable when both things are realized.....
John tells us that Judas was a thief and helped himself to the moneybags regularly and often.
But, if you know anything about how Telmademe operated....you knew that every financial need of Judas was provided for by his family.
AND
Iscariot was a city in Judah's territory. Not exactly a poor city as they had a fairly successful farm.(Judas was not broke)
So....
Can both sets of things be true?
A believer but yet not a believer at the same time?
And obviously for the church members.....
This is a VERY VERY important question.......
BUT NO ONE wants to discuss it.....
Bear in mind that the OP does not consider Scripture to say plainly what it means. He claims that everything in Scripture is a parable and that only special ones like himself are able to receive the Lord’s revelation on what the text “actually” means.
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passion84god
Guest
For real? I think that this is the first post that I have read by this poster, so I have no idea what he or she believes. If what you're saying is true, then this conversation is headed nowhere fast.
But Judas "Believed" Jesus was God's son....the Messiah. Of that there can be zero doubt.
But he also was the son of perdition...
He was never "saved"....he was in fact "doomed" before he was born.
Are you saying the men before the flood were calling upon the name of Jesus for salvation? They believed in the death, burial, and resurrection? Are you talking about another way of salvation?
Lots of people witnessed miracles of Jesus and still walked away unbelieving. Assuming Judas believed is an assumption.
Jesus explicitly said He knew who had not believed from the beginning, and that was referring to Judas.
Now let's see that particular verse....
What it says precisely....
Because often what we think it says is often not what it actually says....