Secret Rapture or Second Coming?

[Aussie52]

Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers insist that 1 Thes 4:16-17 is a description of the Rapture prior to the Great Tribulation, whereas Matt 24:30-31 is His coming after the Tribulation. However, on close inspection they appear to be one and the same event.

'For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord' 1 Thes 4:16-17 NKJB.

'Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in Heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And His angels with the sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other'. Matt 24:16-17.

Please note the following in both passages.
* The coming of Christ from Heaven.
* Angel(s).
* Trumpet sounded.
* The catching up of saints to where Jesus is.

It is clear to any impartial individual, that what is described in both passages is the same event. And that event is Christ's coming in glory at the end of the age.
If it is said that there are some things not mentioned in both passages, then neither is it the case with John 14:1-3 which Pre-Tribbers claim to be the Rapture.
Please note the word 'meet' as in meet the Lord in the air 1 Thes 4:17. The word is 'apantesis' in the Greek and describes civic officials going out to meet a VIP and escorting him back to the city. This means that after the dead in Christ are raised and those alive are caught up to be with Him, they then proceed back to earth where Christ will set up His Millennial Kingdom.

On a historical note. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine was unheard of in the whole of Church history, up until John Nelson Darby came up with the idea, in 1830. Food for thought.

 

[Psalm1]

Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers insist that 1 Thes 4:16-17 is a description of the Rapture prior to the Great Tribulation, whereas Matt 24:30-31 is His coming after the Tribulation. However, on close inspection they appear to be one and the same event.

'For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord' 1 Thes 4:16-17 NKJB.

'Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in Heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And His angels with the sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other'. Matt 24:16-17.

Please note the following in both passages.
* The coming of Christ from Heaven.
* Angel(s).
* Trumpet sounded.
* The catching up of saints to where Jesus is.

It is clear to any impartial individual, that what is described in both passages is the same event. And that event is Christ's coming in glory at the end of the age.
If it is said that there are some things not mentioned in both passages, then neither is it the case with John 14:1-3 which Pre-Tribbers claim to be the Rapture.
Please note the word 'meet' as in meet the Lord in the air 1 Thes 4:17. The word is 'apantesis' in the Greek and describes civic officials going out to meet a VIP and escorting him back to the city. This means that after the dead in Christ are raised and those alive are caught up to be with Him, they then proceed back to earth where Christ will set up His Millennial Kingdom.

On a historical note. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine was unheard of in the whole of Church history, up until John Nelson Darby came up with the idea, in 1830. Food for thought.

Your only verse from Matthew has angels gathering, not Jesus.
The gathering you refer to is from heaven, while the rapture is from earth.

Oh....and that 1830's weak deal has been debunked years ago.

So far, you have no verses or standing.
Is there anything else you can come up with?
A verse maybe?

 

[Psalm1]

Postrib rapture paints itself into several corners.
1) the 144,000 can not be what tge bible says
2) Rev 14 debunks the "one coming fallacy"
3) the 10 virgin parable forever destroys any hope of a postrib rapture....just look at how they change it. ...appalling.
4) every church rapture verse ( which you did not cover), is a pretrib setting
5) no postrib rapture teacher initiates ANYTHING of the marriage supper, or the bride/groom dynamic.
Red flags galore....since the rapture is the gathering of the bride.

So postribbers do not understand the rapture, it's purpose, or the purpose of the 7 yr trib.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Mystery Pre-Trib Rapture and Prophesied Second Coming 'same event'?

Respectfully disagree:

God's Great GRACE ( Pre-trib ) Departure!

------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[tablet123]

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

The Bible states that the saints will not be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first and the man of sin claims to be God.

The man of sin will negotiate peace in the Middle East resulting in a 7 years peace treaty which then starts the 7 years period.

He will push his agenda for three and one half years that interprets all religions according to the occult and evolution.

Which the time will come that people will not want to hear the Bible according to the truth but according to their own lusts.

The falling away first is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel which they stopped the preaching of the Gospel and the belief in a personal God.

The Orthodox Jews according to the Old Testament will rebuild their temple.

At the end of the three and one half years the falling away happened when the transgressors have come to the full.

Then the man of sin will step in to the Jews temple and claim to be their God.

Now the saints can be resurrected.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

For the last three and one half years the beast makes war against the saints and they are given in to his hands for three and one half years and at the end of that time all things are finished.

Then comes the end when Jesus will deliver up the kingdom.

Then He will put down all power, authority, and rule.

The resurrection cannot happen before the end of the 7 years period for the heathen would not continue.

But at the end of the 7 years the heathen do not continue.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

It will be known to the world and does have to be secret for it is over for the world.

 

[Aussie52]

Your only verse from Matthew has angels gathering, not Jesus.
The gathering you refer to is from heaven, while the rapture is from earth.

Oh....and that 1830's weak deal has been debunked years ago.

So far, you have no verses or standing.
Is there anything else you can come up with?
A verse maybe?

The events of 1830 are well documented in biographies of Darby. He fell from a horse injuring himself. During the days of his recovery, he 'discovered' dispensationalism and a pre-trib rapture., and the rest as they say, is history.

 

[GaryA]

Which the time will come that people will not want to hear the Bible according to the truth but according to their own lusts.

Me thinks we have this in existence today already...

 

[GaryA]

The events of 1830 are well documented in biographies of Darby. He fell from a horse injuring himself. During the days of his recovery, he 'discovered' dispensationalism and a pre-trib rapture., and the rest as they say, is history.

I suppose the whole world would have been much better off if Darby had just never gotten on that [high] horse...

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

 

[passion84god]

Please note the word 'meet' as in meet the Lord in the air 1 Thes 4:17. The word is 'apantesis' in the Greek and describes civic officials going out to meet a VIP and escorting him back to the city. This means that after the dead in Christ are raised and those alive are caught up to be with Him, they then proceed back to earth where Christ will set up His Millennial Kingdom.

I definitely don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, and I definitely do believe that these passages refer to Christ's second coming. However, I never knew what the word "meet" meant before reading your post. I did just check to make sure that what you said is true, and, apparently, it is. This solidifies my previously held belief even further. I learned something new today. Thank you so much for sharing.​

 

[Psalm1]

The events of 1830 are well documented in biographies of Darby. He fell from a horse injuring himself. During the days of his recovery, he 'discovered' dispensationalism and a pre-trib rapture., and the rest as they say, is history.

So your doctrine, as you are affirming, came from men of the early church, who were limited and had to be corrected from errors?

No thank you.
I will debate the bible.
Whether Darby lived ,died, or whatever he believed, is for your interest.
You are hoping to gain some traction, by skipping scripture and calling out truth vs error of the early church, when none of you postribber can reconcile the verses I invoke, or that Darby invokes.
Ironically, that means your doctrine is from men.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

The Bible states that the saints will not be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first and the man of sin claims to be God.

The man of sin will negotiate peace in the Middle East resulting in a 7 years peace treaty which then starts the 7 years period.

He will push his agenda for three and one half years that interprets all religions according to the occult and evolution.

Which the time will come that people will not want to hear the Bible according to the truth but according to their own lusts.

The falling away first is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel which they stopped the preaching of the Gospel and the belief in a personal God.

The Orthodox Jews according to the Old Testament will rebuild their temple.

At the end of the three and one half years the falling away happened when the transgressors have come to the full.

Then the man of sin will step in to the Jews temple and claim to be their God.

Now the saints can be resurrected.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

For the last three and one half years the beast makes war against the saints and they are given in to his hands for three and one half years and at the end of that time all things are finished.

Then comes the end when Jesus will deliver up the kingdom.

Then He will put down all power, authority, and rule.

The resurrection cannot happen before the end of the 7 years period for the heathen would not continue.

But at the end of the 7 years the heathen do not continue.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

It will be known to the world and does have to be secret for it is over for the world.

1) you do not understand the purpose of the trib.
2) every one that is a postrib rapture adherents, fails to understand that the rapture is the gathering of the bride.
3) postrib rapture doctrine is " tribulation centered", not bride/bridegroom centered.
(Not Jesus returning centered.)

There is no scripture pointing to a postrib rapture.
Postrib rapture defense uses conjecture against scripture.
Possibly the weakest doctrine ever invented by men, and uses dead men as it's origin
Oh the irony.

Btw....the only place we see the invented secret rapture concept is with postribbers....Further revealing you guys are debating a doctrine, that you invent what we believe.

Flat out crazy stuff.

 

[Psalm1]

I definitely don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, and I definitely do believe that these passages refer to Christ's second coming. However, I never knew what the word "meet" meant before reading your post. I did just check to make sure that what you said is true, and, apparently, it is. This solidifies my previously held belief even further. I learned something new today. Thank you so much for sharing.​

The bible destroys any possible hope of a postrib rapture.
The pretrib rapture doctrine is one of the easiest to defend.

 

[Xegomaniac]

The bible destroys any possible hope of a postrib rapture.
The pretrib rapture doctrine is one of the easiest to defend.

when the scales fell off my eyes as in miracle then suddenly Matthew 24 became blaring clear: one trumpet one return one gathering all saints 4 corners and sea. PTL the Bible is Truth Matthew 24:29. All scripture about the 2nd coming is tied to what Jesus says >after< being the operative word. Matthew 24:13 ONLY those who endure to the end (of the tribulation which will be cut short for the elect still on earth. Thanks Psalms 1 for your comment! Ive often wondered if the 10nm virgin parable is really about pre vs post trib camps, hmmm.

 

[Psalm1]

when the scales fell off my eyes as in miracle then suddenly Matthew 24 became blaring clear: one trumpet one return one gathering all saints 4 corners and sea. PTL the Bible is Truth Matthew 24:29. All scripture about the 2nd coming is tied to what Jesus says >after< being the operative word. Matthew 24:13 ONLY those who endure to the end (of the tribulation which will be cut short for the elect still on earth. Thanks Psalms 1 for your comment! Ive often wondered if the 10nm virgin parable is really about pre vs post trib camps, hmmm.

Amen it is clear.
Jesus taught the pretrib rapture 4 separate times.
Yes the bible has no scales.

 

[Aussie52]

Amen it is clear.
Jesus taught the pretrib rapture 4 separate times.
Yes the bible has no scales.

The pre-trib rapture position is built on inference not exegesis.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

when the scales fell off my eyes as in miracle then suddenly Matthew 24 became blaring clear: one trumpet one return one gathering all saints 4 corners and sea.

Precious friend, @Xegomaniac, this Bible study clears up the confusion of different
raptures for me = be blessed:

God's Great GRACE ( Pre-trib ) Departure!

==========
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[Psalm1]

The pre-trib rapture position is built on inference not exegesis.

Huh.
Lol
You don't even have a verse.
What are talking about.?
Jesus alone taught it 4 separate times.

Postrib rapture paints itself into several corners.
1) postrib rapture doctrine says the
144,000 can not be what the bible says
Go look it up in some postrib teaching...it is a laugh.
2) Rev 14 debunks the "one coming fallacy"
3) the 10 virgin parable forever destroys any hope of a postrib rapture....just look at how they change it. ...appalling.
4) every church rapture verse ( which you did not cover), is a pretrib setting
5) no postrib rapture teacher initiates ANYTHING of the marriage supper, or the bride/groom dynamic.
Red flags galore....since the rapture is the gathering of the bride.

Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers insist that 1 Thes 4:16-17 is a description of the Rapture prior to the Great Tribulation, whereas Matt 24:30-31 is His coming after the Tribulation. However, on close inspection they appear to be one and the same event.

'For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord' 1 Thes 4:16-17 NKJB.

'Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in Heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And His angels with the sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other'. Matt 24:16-17.

Please note the following in both passages.
* The coming of Christ from Heaven.
* Angel(s).
* Trumpet sounded.
* The catching up of saints to where Jesus is.

It is clear to any impartial individual, that what is described in both passages is the same event. And that event is Christ's coming in glory at the end of the age.
If it is said that there are some things not mentioned in both passages, then neither is it the case with John 14:1-3 which Pre-Tribbers claim to be the Rapture.
Please note the word 'meet' as in meet the Lord in the air 1 Thes 4:17. The word is 'apantesis' in the Greek and describes civic officials going out to meet a VIP and escorting him back to the city. This means that after the dead in Christ are raised and those alive are caught up to be with Him, they then proceed back to earth where Christ will set up His Millennial Kingdom.

On a historical note. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine was unheard of in the whole of Church history, up until John Nelson Darby came up with the idea, in 1830. Food for thought.

QUOTE:
"Matt 24:16-17.
Please note the following in both passages.
* The coming of Christ from Heaven.
* Angel(s).
* Trumpet sounded.
* The catching up of saints to where Jesus is.
It is clear to any impartial individual, that what is described in both passages is the same event. And that event is Christ's coming in glory at the end of the age."

Nope. Far from it.
Your verse from mat says "angels gather IN HEAVEN".
You changed it to "catching up of saints."
You can not differentiate "angels gathering", from "Jesus gathering"?
You want us to believe changing the wording, "from heaven" ,to, " from earth", is exegesis?... (as you ascribe to yourself)

Nice try.
Changing verses are we?
Your passages are Clear to impartial individual????
Skewing it is impartial.?

 

[Psalm1]

Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers insist that 1 Thes 4:16-17 is a description of the Rapture prior to the Great Tribulation, whereas Matt 24:30-31 is His coming after the Tribulation. However, on close inspection they appear to be one and the same event.

'For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord' 1 Thes 4:16-17 NKJB.

'Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in Heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And His angels with the sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other'. Matt 24:16-17.

Please note the following in both passages.
* The coming of Christ from Heaven.
* Angel(s).
* Trumpet sounded.
* The catching up of saints to where Jesus is.

It is clear to any impartial individual, that what is described in both passages is the same event. And that event is Christ's coming in glory at the end of the age.
If it is said that there are some things not mentioned in both passages, then neither is it the case with John 14:1-3 which Pre-Tribbers claim to be the Rapture.
Please note the word 'meet' as in meet the Lord in the air 1 Thes 4:17. The word is 'apantesis' in the Greek and describes civic officials going out to meet a VIP and escorting him back to the city. This means that after the dead in Christ are raised and those alive are caught up to be with Him, they then proceed back to earth where Christ will set up His Millennial Kingdom.

On a historical note. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine was unheard of in the whole of Church history, up until John Nelson Darby came up with the idea, in 1830. Food for thought.

You claim ascribing "Darby" promotes your deal ?

That is usually a last resort.
Once I work postrib doctrine over with the sword of God's word, then here comes the postribber,extra biblical, weak popsicle sticks.
But you invoke him as your main pillar.

Wow.
Sad.

 

[Aussie52]

Huh.
Lol
You don't even have a verse.
What are talking about.?
Jesus alone taught it 4 separate times.

Postrib rapture paints itself into several corners.
1) postrib rapture doctrine says the
144,000 can not be what the bible says
Go look it up in some postrib teaching...it is a laugh.
2) Rev 14 debunks the "one coming fallacy"
3) the 10 virgin parable forever destroys any hope of a postrib rapture....just look at how they change it. ...appalling.
4) every church rapture verse ( which you did not cover), is a pretrib setting
5) no postrib rapture teacher initiates ANYTHING of the marriage supper, or the bride/groom dynamic.
Red flags galore....since the rapture is the gathering of the bride.

QUOTE:
"Matt 24:16-17.
Please note the following in both passages.
* The coming of Christ from Heaven.
* Angel(s).
* Trumpet sounded.
* The catching up of saints to where Jesus is.
It is clear to any impartial individual, that what is described in both passages is the same event. And that event is Christ's coming in glory at the end of the age."

Nope. Far from it.
Your verse from mat says "angels gather IN HEAVEN".
You changed it to "catching up of saints."
You can not differentiate "angels gathering", from "Jesus gathering"?
You want us to believe changing the wording, "from heaven" ,to, " from earth", is exegesis?... (as you ascribe to yourself)

Nice try.
Changing verses are we?
Your passages are Clear to impartial individual????
Skewing it is impartial.?

You show yourself as really ignorant of what Historic Premillennialism teaches. Your hermeneutic is overly literalistic. You attitude is very pugnacious, unwilling to truly listen to another point of view. All signs of spiritual immaturity.

 

[Psalm1]

Ok.
So, the postribber doctrine, is from the early church?
That doctrine is celebrated by it's adherents as coming from man ?

Ok got it.
No wonder you guys are confused.
You should applaud Darby followers ...as you insist a doctrine from man is your foundation.

Or maybe your man is better that their man?
Your man following is guaranteed error...as you guys demonstrate.

I will stick to God's word no matter who you get to skew it.