Reconciled to God while enemies !

[Roger316]

When you hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and acknowledge that you believe, then you are saved (Romans 10).

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,
you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses,
resulting in salvation.

Your repentance, water baptism, endurance, theology, blah, blah, blah, has nothing to do with that reconciliation that
Jesus gave to us.

Salvation is simply a free gift given to those that believe in Him.

Christ's perfect sacrifice which granted us immortality was through Christ alone.

I don't think I could argue that such things "have nothing to do with the repentance Christ gave us." The verse you quoted says that we will be saved if we confess and believe. Those seem important right?

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, I know what 'bring' means

It doesnt seem like it

But think about it a minute. Yes, προσαγάγῃ (“bring”) is a movement verb — but we can't assume that “movement” must mean physical relocation rather than relational access. In Greek, especially in Jewish‑Greek, this verb is technical temple language, and its “movement” is ritual, relational, and covenantal, not spatial.

You just denied 1 Pet 3:18, it says He brings us to God, and you ratinalize it away

 

[brightfame52]

Peter is not talking about salvation in the technical, Pauline sense, and certainly not about expiation for the elect.

Yes it is about salvation, the elect had went astray, they were lost and dead, out of fellowship, estranged. Jesus healed that and returned the elect back to God. You denying the work of Christ

 

[brightfame52]

You still gotta repent.

He gives it, causes it.

 

[brightfame52]

So you admit, you changed your mind and converted.

Christ gave me repentance caused it. Its like here Jer 31:19

Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

 

[brightfame52]

Are you asking me what a minister does? When he talks about being a minister of reconciliation this means that he calls on people to reconcile with God. He literally says, "Be reconciled to God." But you want to say, "Don't worry silly, Christ already did that for you."

You sound foolish

 

[brightfame52]

You have some strange ideas

The gospel is foolishness to many

That is only true for those who actually and in fact, reconcile with God.

Christ reconciles us to God in fact Rom 5:10 for 1000th time

 

[brightfame52]

Where does it say that something is true simply by believing it?

I didnt say that, false misrepresentation

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The imperative mood is the mood of command;

I already stated that, but its also passive voice, the subject is being caused to obey God is the cause.

brightfame52 ... here is the full quote from Blue Letter Bible:

The imperative mood is the mood of command; i.e., it is requiring something of someone or someones that is volitionally possible from those of whom the action is being required. With the present imperative, the action conveyed is keep on doing whatever one is doing, and with the aorist imperative, the action is start doing something.​

https://www.blueletterbible.org/assets/pdf/grammars/Simplified_Greek_Grammar_v5_2018.09.18.pdf​

when you quote from a post submitted by me (or anyone else for that matter) wherein information from an outside source is included, you need to include the full information from the source ... even if you do not like it because it does not align with your erroneous dogma.

Blue Letter Bible is a very good site and you should honor its source documents ... even if you do not agree ... smh ...



fyi ... the second aorist passive imperative found in 2 Corinthians 5:20 is also used in 1 Corinthians 7:

1 Corinthians 7:10-11

10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [second aorist, passive, imperative] her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

If a wife separates from her husband, she is to remain unmarried ... or reconcile with her husband. The wife is to reconcile with her husband. God does not reconcile her to her husband ... and the husband is not to divorce his wife.


and Matthew 5:

Matthew 5:23-24

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled [second aorist, passive, imperative] to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

If you bring your gift to the altar and remember a brother has a cause against you ... you go and reconcile with your brother ... then offer your gift. You are to reconcile with your brother ... God does not reconcile you to your brother.



Here's what Thayer's says about "be ye reconciled" as used in 2 Cor 5:20:

allow yourselves to be reconciled to God; do not oppose your return into his favor, but lay hold of that favor now offered you, 2 Corinthians 5:20.​

Here's what Thayer's says about "be reconciled to" as used in 1 Cor 7:11:

let her return into harmony with ... her husband, 1 Corinthians 7:11​

God has done all that is necessary for all mankind to be reconciled to Him ... God reconciled Himself to mankind before the foundation of the world ... then God displays His eternal power and Godhead in creation (Rom 1:20) ... then God sends His faithful believers to preach ... all that is left for mankind to do is to stop resisting God when God sends His faithful believer to preach His life-giving Word (Hebrews 4:12).

Contrary to your erroneous dogma, not resisting when God's Word is preached is not work, nor is it adding anything to all the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished.

It is actually man's own "work" when he or she resists.

Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

well, if you're going to go to that record in Ezekiel as your proof text concerning 2 Cor 5:18-20 ... then you better start packing and skedaddle to Israel for then God will sprinkle clean water upon you and give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you:

Ezekiel 36:24-28

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.


that's what happens when you try to force your favored verses into an unrelated context ... now I'll wait for your usual nonsensical comment ("you don't understand" or words to that effect) ... meanwhile it is wholly obvious you do not understand God's Word concerning 2 Corinthians 5:18-20, nor do you understand Ezekiel 36:24-28.

.

 

[Inquisitor]

I don't think I could argue that such things "have nothing to do with the repentance Christ gave us." The verse you quoted says that we will be saved if we confess and believe. Those seem important right?

If we stay strictly with Scripture, the New Testament repeatedly connects receiving the Holy Spirit with believing in Christ, not with first completing a process of Christian obedience.

Paul asks the Galatians:

"Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:2)

His expected answer is: by faith, not by works.


Likewise:

"That we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:14)

And:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise." (Ephesians 1:13)

Notice the sequence: hear the gospel → believe → be sealed with the Holy Spirit.


Paul also says:

"If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:9)

That implies there is no category of true believer who belongs to Christ but has not yet received the Spirit.


The account of Cornelius is often cited because the Holy Spirit came upon the Gentiles while Peter was still preaching:

"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word." (Acts 10:44)

Why was there no repentance?

"God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us... purifying their hearts by faith." (Acts 15:8-9)

Again, faith is emphasized.


As for whether someone must live the Christian life in order to finally become saved, passages on the gift of salvation are very strong:

"To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." (Romans 5:1)

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24)

The tense is significant: "hath everlasting life" and "is passed from death unto life."


At the same time, the New Testament also teaches that genuine faith produces fruit:

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works..." (Ephesians 2:10)

But notice the order. Ephesians says:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works" (Ephesians 2:8-9)

and then

"created in Christ Jesus unto good works" (Ephesians 2:10)

The works follow salvation; they do not purchase it.


Does a person receive the Holy Spirit when they believe, or only after they have sufficiently lived the Christian life?"
The weight of passages such as Ephesians 1:13, Galatians 3:2, Romans 8:9, and Acts 10:44-48 points to receiving
the Spirit upon believing. The Christian life is presented as the result and evidence of God's saving work, not the
prerequisite that earns it.

Did you repent of your sin before you called on the name of Jesus for salvation.

If so, you cannot repent without the Holy Spirit illuminating you to your own fallen state.

Therefore, how can someone repent before receiving the Holy Spirit?

If repentance was practiced by you after receiving the Holy Spirit then that is during your Christian life,
not at the time of salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

The imperative mood is the mood of command;

For the 1000th time I know what the imperative is, I stated it earlier

the second aorist passive

I know what a passive voice is, the subject is receiving the action or being acted upon. God is doing the work behind the command, He is doing the changing. Its similar to Phil 2:12-13

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The phrase "work out your own salvation" is the imperative, but in Vs 13 its Gods work or working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, So they are receiving the action from God, who is working in them, they are passive when God is working

 

[brightfame52]

Here's what Thayer's says about "be ye reconciled" as used in 2 Cor 5:20:

allow yourselves to be reconciled to God; do not oppose your return into his favor, but lay hold of that favor now offered you, 2 Corinthians 5:20.

Thats wrong, we dont allow God nothing, that's blasphemy, furthermore the ones to whom that imperative is issued have already legally been reconciled to God Rom 5:10 and 2 Cor 5:19 sins are not imputed to the reconciled, period !

 

[Hakawaka]

Thats wrong, we dont allow God nothing, that's blasphemy, furthermore the ones to whom that imperative is issued have already legally been reconciled to God Rom 5:10 and 2 Cor 5:19 sins are not imputed to the reconciled, period !

This argument is rock solid. I read it many many times and for some reason it just never clicked with me I read it but didnt think about it or look into it. All that stuff about aorist tenses goes over my head, but late at night i was just compelled to take a look into it. Its sad to admit your wrong but hey, glory to God for leading His sheep to truth. Im glad i saw it, im sad i didnt understand it earlier.

 

[rogerg]

This argument is rock solid. I read it many many times and for some reason it just never clicked with me I read it but didnt think about it or look into it. All that stuff about aorist tenses goes over my head, but late at night i was just compelled to take a look into it. Its sad to admit your wrong but hey, glory to God for leading His sheep to truth. Im glad i saw it, im sad i didnt understand it earlier.

You're not unique at all, Hakawaka - so don't feel bad. Just about everyone who becomes born again, started as you did, me included.
Very, very glad that God opened your eyes through @brightfame52!

 

[brightfame52]

Here's what Thayer's says about "be reconciled to" as used in 1 Cor 7:11:

let her return into harmony with ... her husband, 1 Corinthians 7:11

This is a passive imperative but kinda different, its a The Middle-Passive Nuance. This is human relationship, different context from 2 Cor 5:20 where the parties are legally reconciled men and God:

Now AI knowing my reformed position, I asked how does the imperative passive works in 1 Cor 7:11 ? And AI broke it down as following:

In 1 Corinthians 7:11, the phrase "be reconciled" (Greek: καταλλαγήτω / katallagētō) is indeed an Aorist Imperative Passive. [1, 2, 3]
Just like in 2 Corinthians 5:20, an imperative passive means the subject is commanded to yield to an action done by someone else, rather than forcing it through their own independent strength.

Because this is happening between two humans in a broken marriage rather than between a human and God, the passive voice shifts how the action works in three distinct ways: [1, 2, 3]

1. It Requires Giving Up the "Right to Fight"

• The Active Alternative: If Paul had used the active voice, it would mean "Go out and aggressively fix this marriage by your own terms."
• The Passive Reality: By using the passive, Paul is telling the separated wife to stop resisting the restoration of the relationship. It is a command to lower her defenses, lay down her grievances, and make herself reconcilable. [1]

2. It Requires Two-Way Cooperation

• You cannot force a relationship: You can actively force yourself into a room, but you cannot actively force a reconciliation. Reconciliation is inherently something that happens to you when two parties mutually yield. [1, 2]
• The Open Door: The passive command means: "Put yourself in a posture where, if the husband moves toward peace, you are completely open to receiving him." It bars her from permanently locking the door to the relationship.

3. It Relies on a Divine Subtext (The Middle-Passive Nuance) [1]

• Let God do the heavy lifting: In interpersonal relationships, the Aorist passive also carries a hint of letting God act as the broker. It implies: "Allow yourself to be changed by God so that peace can happen."
• The Contextual Shift: In 2 Corinthians 5, you are entirely passive because God is the perfect initiator. In 1 Corinthians 7, you are dealing with an imperfect human spouse, meaning the passive voice acts as a restraint on pride. It stops you from demanding your own way and forces you to wait for a mutual, peaceful restoration. [1, 2, 3, 4]

 

[brightfame52]

Those reconciled by His Death shall be saved ?

Those that Christ died for and reconciled to God by His death, even while they were being enemies/unbelievers, but reconciled nonetheless, they shall [promise] be saved by His Life. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now what does that mean, they shall be saved by His Life ? That means by His resurrected Life they shall believe and be saved Luke 8:12

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Acts 16:31

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

So in Essence, Rom 5:10 guarantees that all for whom Christ died for and reconciled to God by His Death even while they were unbelievers/enemies, that they shall become believers and be saved by His Life ! 3

 

[Roger316]

It doesnt seem like it

You just denied 1 Pet 3:18, it says He brings us to God, and you ratinalize it away

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with discussion boards and don't realize that when someone disagrees with another person's interpretation, they are not disagreeing with the text.

 

[Roger316]

Yes it is about salvation, the elect had went astray, they were lost and dead, out of fellowship, estranged. Jesus healed that and returned the elect back to God. You denying the work of Christ

Four Key Verses Showing Peter’s Focus Is *Suffering*, Not *Salvation*
1 Peter 2:19–21 — Peter explicitly says believers are *called* to suffer because Christ suffered, making suffering the *theme* of the letter’s exhortation.
1 Peter 3:14 — “Even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you are blessed.” This frames the entire section leading into 3:18.
1 Peter 3:17 — “It is better to suffer for doing good…” This is the immediate context of 3:18 and sets the interpretive lens.
1 Peter 4:1 — “Since Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking.” Again, Christ’s suffering is exemplary, not expiatory in this context.

Why these four matter
Together they show:

- Peter is building a pastoral argument about unjust suffering
- Christ’s suffering is used as a pattern and encouragement
- The theme is endurance, vindication, and faithfulness, not atonement mechanics
- 1 Peter 3:18 fits into this flow as the climactic example of righteous suffering leading to vindication

This is why importing “expiation for the elect” into 3:18 is anachronistic — it ignores Peter’s own rhetorical structure.

 

[Roger316]

He gives it, causes it.

If he caused you to repent, did you actually repent?

 

[Roger316]

Christ gave me repentance caused it. Its like here Jer 31:19

Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

What do you mean he caused it?