Obviously doubts must be confessed/admitted in order to be intentionally doubted,
so they are in the same vein. (Lacking the gift of semantics?
)Doubting Salvation? What's Your Belief?
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Obviously doubts must be confessed/admitted in order to be intentionally doubted,
so they are in the same vein. (Lacking the gift of semantics?
)
That's an interesting way of putting it, but when we look at the context where Jesus gave the instruction for the necessity to persevere, we see a people and a time that's not related to us today. Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are a record of the same instruction, which relates to the time of the 70th week of Jacob's Trouble. You presented a good thought, in that it's goof for us to seek always after battling temptations and sin, but it's wonderful that we don't have to live in the dear of loss given that our salvation is based not upon our faithfulness but rather upon His faithfulness:
2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
This, however, seems to strike no chord in the thinking of the legalistic, works-based salvationists. I Created a thread where I discuss how there's no distinction between the Mosaic Law and good works today, for Torah defined the good works to which so many today point and claim to uphold as their retention of salvation, all without realizing that it all is laid out in the Law. This is why Paul argued about good works almost always in relation to the Mosaic Law, with modern, ignorant people claiming their good works are not codified within the Law. Paul made no distinctions, even though people today DO claim a distinction. Works of the Law are good works, with none of it being the basis for our salvation but rather reward and treasures in Heaven.
Good stuff.
I started a thread outlining the parallels between modern perceptions of good works and the Mosaic Law:
MM
That's where you depart from what scripture says. Falling away is just an expression of the same phenomenon addressed in other areas of scripture.
Psalm 119:176
I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.
Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Luke 15:6
And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Let's consider this, if we may:
2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Paul obviously is not saying here that all unbelievers will be saved on the basis of the faithfulness of Christ, so he must be addressing those who believed and then fell into unbelief. His emphasis is on the fact that our salvation isn't based upon our faithfulness to the Lord but rather His faithfulness to all where were ever saved no matter what stated they may be found at various points throughout their lives on this earth.
It's the pride of flesh to think our salvation has anything to do with our faithfulness, our efforts or anything else originating from the heart and the flesh.
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Even the wicked do good works, so it's not at all about good works in relation to salvation, as this verse emphasizes. Good works are in fact works of the Law, as I point out in the following thread. If works could at all affect salvation, then Christ died in vain and that Mother Teressa woman is saved by all her works. No. Not at all. We have no idea what her faith was in when it comes to believing the Gospel as Paul laid down for all in 1 Cor. 15:1-4, the gospel by which we are saved today. If she trusted in her works for salvation, then she had no salvation.
MM
The problem is a cart before the horse thing. We love, therefore we seek to figure out and obey. We love because we understand, and believe, the tremendous debt we owed, and the terrible price Jesus paid because of His great love for us while we were sinners and while we were still hostile towards Him.
This love all those with saving faith have, always creates an insatiable "Need" to get to the truth of all His word says and means so we can conform ourselves to it. 1Pe. 2:2-3 Those who are truly saved, who have this tremendous love for God, as a result of His great love poured out for them, creates a "Need", in those saved, to be pleasing to Him in all things. It results in tremendous grief when we discover we are off from His will, and in our doing absolutely everything we can to correct whatever is off. 2Co. 7:7-12
These are some of the ongoing habitual "Fruits" those with true saving faith have, that those lacking true saving faith can never possess. Mat. 7:15-20
Yes, "Faith without works is stillborn." Jas. 2:17, 26 It is a "birth" that didn't produce any life.
I think you may have missed one scenario.
What about the one who has been in Faith, personally surrendering their lives to Him continually for years? And their lives decisions have been inspired by such surrender for so many years that to even think about their own salvation would be an act of selfishness.
Keeping in mind this one has received the Spirit of Christ and the mind of Christ, so doubting He exists or that this one is not sealed with the grace deposit is just not their reality. And I am saying you will feel it continually.
What someone in that state may doubt or question and is more important than their own salvation is the salvation of their household. That would be the better question.
If someone is doubting their salvation , that means they are doubting they have the sealed Grace deposit and the mind of Christ. When the Holy spirit and the mind of Christ are given, doubting that happened is not an option. So if someone is doubting that happened, it hasn't happened and they need to make sure they understand what true faith and faithing is. And thats a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
In a manner of speaking, yes. I agree.
When works of the Law are placed anywhere in relation to salvation. Faith, yes. A living faith produces good works of the Law, and when one's faith dwindles or dies out, it is that faith that is dead. The works-based salvationists, then, to err when forcing the deadness of faith into the arena of salvation itself once bestowed...referring to their false belief in the loss of salvation. That is not at all what James stated, contrary to those people's claims.
good question to ask someone you may encounter who believes in that man-made doctrine of loss of salvation, what level of deadness of faith was Paul addressing here?
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
It's reasonable to say that one's faith can't become any more dead than that. This clearly places the strength of all our salvation upon the faithfulness of Christ rather than upon us and our measure of faith. Dare we discuss the measure of our faith right now, the most faithful Christian who does the most good works, his faith is still not anywhere near the magnitude and stature of that which is in Christ Jesus. None of us would be saved if our salvation itself were based upon the measure of our faith, even at its peak.
If more people understood this, they would cast aside their foolish notions of salvation having anything whatsoever to do with works of the Law...yes, ALL good works have a parallel within the Mosaic Law, which is why Paul made so much reference to the Law because every good work one may do today has a parallel therein.
MM
It "sounds like" we agree. But then, "when one's faith dwindles or dies out, it is that faith that is dead" Unbelief = results in disobedience (Tons of scriptures on this (Search on Love / commandments) = the judgment of God for true Christians (Reproof Heb. 12:6-8) = sickness, weakness or death for those who are true Christians 1Co. 11:29-32 (For an example of "sleeping" 1Co. 5:5) It's along the lines of Heb. 6:8 how "close" can you get to being "cursed" without actually being "cursed"? You enter heaven with absolutely nothing to show for your time on earth. Everything you did gets burned up. 1Co. 13:10-15
This doesn't change the fact that every belief group, Christian or not, evaluates whether others love truth and possess the truth, when it comes to their core beliefs by whether or not those core beliefs align with their own or not. Every belief group, from the Atheists to almost all "Christians" do. If you have the same core beliefs, you pass. If you don't, you don't. But everyone passes their own tests. That is why God says what He does in 2Co. 10:12. Evaluating whether or not people are saved by the profession of beliefs and whether or not they align with their own means we have absolutely no understanding at all.
Jesus warns all true Christians to be judging based on ongoing "Fruits" not profession of beliefs. Mat. 7:15-20 Yet how do most "Christian" churches evaluate people for membership in their church? the narrow "Gate" that results in "life" is "Faith" "in the truth". Mat. 7:14 All other beliefs result in being lost and headed for hell: The exceedingly broad gate. Mat. 7:13 The question is, what "ongoing Fruits" the lost can never possess, whether they believe themselves to be Christian or not, will eventually result in them getting from ANY incorrect beliefs "to" truth, if they never leave that "path" Mat. 7:14 and what ongoing "Fruits" result in everyone being able to hold to the 10,000 non-Christian beliefs, and the 45,000 different "Christian" beliefs "as" truth, with absolutely none of them ever being willing to consider that their current beliefs might be lies and something "else" might be truth?
It's not about beliefs 2Co. 10:12. It's about the ongoing "Fruits" that would get people "from" ANY incorrect belief, "to" truth ... eventually ... if we never ever stop practicing those things. That's the path to the "exceedingly narrow" saving faith in the truth.
Those holding fast to their current beliefs "as" truth, regardless of their belief group, fail the fruits test. Noone ever seriously considers exchanging the "unquestionably true" beliefs they have for anything "else". By definition, everything "else" is just as "unquestionably", a lie.
Eventual salvation, or locking ourselves into being headed for destruction, is all dependent on one "Choice" every person makes. Make the wrong "Choice" and "for this reason" you will get everything you need to hold fast to what you "want to believe" "as" truth from God Himself. 2Th. 2:10-13
That's a broad-scoped set of verses and specifics. The broad-brush stroke approach to something this broad is to say, simply stated, that if one forces salvation into the meaning behind those verses and those contexts, that's not the right thing to do especially in those areas that specifically address Israel rather than Gentiles. I'm not assuming that's what YOU are saying in all this, but there are those who do believe such.
That's why the scriptures, as written, are the acid test for all those other group's beliefs.
Yes, the popular battering ram of " interpretation" ends up being the favorite go-to for those who embrace doctrines not supported within the texts of the Bible as written.
Well, beliefs are the soils within which one's "fruits" sprout.
Good point. It matters not what I may say that I believe. What matters is what's written and how that stacks up against what people say.
I don't know about others, but my salvation was instantaneous at the point I believed in Christ's death, burial and resurrection on the third day.
MM
Of late, I keep going over the aspect of fulfillment ever since I wrote some thoughts on Jesus fulfilling the Law. He gave it everything it wanted. I mean, He left it absolutely nothing to want, not even the death that it demands of the one that sins.That's an interesting way of putting it, but when we look at the context where Jesus gave the instruction for the necessity to persevere, we see a people and a time that's not related to us today. Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are a record of the same instruction, which relates to the time of the 70th week of Jacob's Trouble. You presented a good thought, in that it's goof for us to seek always after battling temptations and sin, but it's wonderful that we don't have to live in the dear of loss given that our salvation is based not upon our faithfulness but rather upon His faithfulness:
2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
This, however, seems to strike no chord in the thinking of the legalistic, works-based salvationists. I Created a thread where I discuss how there's no distinction between the Mosaic Law and good works today, for Torah defined the good works to which so many today point and claim to uphold as their retention of salvation, all without realizing that it all is laid out in the Law. This is why Paul argued about good works almost always in relation to the Mosaic Law, with modern, ignorant people claiming their good works are not codified within the Law. Paul made no distinctions, even though people today DO claim a distinction. Works of the Law are good works, with none of it being the basis for our salvation but rather reward and treasures in Heaven.
Good stuff.
I started a thread outlining the parallels between modern perceptions of good works and the Mosaic Law:
MM
And I think I'm closer to reaching the conclusion of the matter I brought up in an open-ended conversation with a friend. Maybe it was the weather affecting me or the day's trouble, but I said, "It just doesn't seem that I'm fulfilled." In her care, she offered ideas and doing what I'd rather be doing might seem to be the answer but, adding that to my meditations on Jesus' work, it would make sense that, whatever I'm doing, if I do it for others then I would have that experience of fulfillment. We were created for good works, prepared in advanced for us to walk in them so, I just have to figure out what I have (been given) that everybody not only needs but wants enough to ask me for in order that I might fulfill God's prescription of good works.
I pretty sure there are few that would include "making omelets" as any kind of morally commendable action but, I certainly felt some sense of accomplishment when I completed the order in timely fashion and delivered the plates to the table. That is, until I inquired, "Which one wanted the peppers?" and the reply was a confused and deflated, ".... we both wanted peppers." Dah!
Yes, there's the feeling of fulfillment in daily tasks coupled together with the belly flops, but then there's accomplishments in spiritual things by how much we allow Holy Spirit to live the Law and the Lord's own perfection through us.
Additionally, how we deal with those in the world around us in how we respond to them, those are mutually exclusive aspects of our lives when speaking of interactions with those who are of this world and in spiritual things through which the Lord lives His Life through us in ways we could never come close to mimicking.
So, when Jesus "fulfilled" the Law, that is a multifaceted topic that libraries of books could not express in totality. We can settle on what we would like to think it means, but that is the weakness of our lives lived out in these bodies of death. I'm not trying to say that it's wrong to settle on any one aspect of it, but rather that the Lord's accomplishment in fulfilling the Law speaks to us of many things, which only goes to show the amazing variety in our persons that He created by way of all our uniqueness He artistically fashioned within each one.
So, in the arena of justice, that is where the Law meets that narrow path upon which we walk toward that narrow gate through which we step once believing in the gospel message about His death, burial and resurrection on the third day for us. Simply stated, the curse of the Law against us who were under it before our salvation from it, that is what He fulfilled with our being buried and raised up with Him after He took the penalty of it all upon Himself. He lived perfectly for us what we could not.
On and on one could go on this topic, even scratching anywhere near the bottom of it all, but it's enough that He fulfilled for us what we could not in relation to salvation. Good works only store up treasure in Heaven, never a supplement to our salvation nor a retention of it. We are sealed with Holy Spirit, a seal that no power can break. We have the "earnest" of our salvation by way of that One and the same Holy Spirit of God. The Lord is never going to forfeit His own Spirit by taking back what He said is the Seal upon us.
Amen
MM
Why so many at times seem to have doubts about their salvation can be said to rest within an uneven understanding of doctrine, leading to confusion about what salvation means (faith vs. works, assurance vs. perseverance), which creates uncertainty.
Some hit a point of personal sin and guilt. They experience repetitions of failure or conscience about specific sins can make someone question whether they truly belong in the family of God. Sometimes it's the encounter of emotional/spiritual seasons; depression, spiritual dryness where fear can erode confidence even when beliefs haven’t changed.
Those who attend and practice religions built upon the horrors of legalism and performance faith where salvation is measured by personal performance or feelings instead of grace thus fostering fragile assurances.
Others encounter intellectual doubts, such as questions about scripture, theology, or difficult passages that produce uncertainty. Making things even worse are the multitudes of mixed teachings and/or community (group think of familial) influences, thus them hearing contradictory messages from various leaders or peers that tend toward unsettled assurance for those who don't have a solid foundation of trust in what the word of God actually says, thus gravitating over into the non-defined and unmapped territories of allegory and symbolism that have no absolute rules for interpretation.
Then there's the severe lack of discipleship and grounding within churchianity. Without teachings on the assurances for salvation, lacking the Spirit’s witness and how faith grows, the blind followers end up not knowing how to be confident in what scripture says, also fueled by the typical, severe lack in personal study and prayer to seek the Spirit for His instruction as instructed in 1 John 2:27.
MM
Some hit a point of personal sin and guilt. They experience repetitions of failure or conscience about specific sins can make someone question whether they truly belong in the family of God. Sometimes it's the encounter of emotional/spiritual seasons; depression, spiritual dryness where fear can erode confidence even when beliefs haven’t changed.
Those who attend and practice religions built upon the horrors of legalism and performance faith where salvation is measured by personal performance or feelings instead of grace thus fostering fragile assurances.
Others encounter intellectual doubts, such as questions about scripture, theology, or difficult passages that produce uncertainty. Making things even worse are the multitudes of mixed teachings and/or community (group think of familial) influences, thus them hearing contradictory messages from various leaders or peers that tend toward unsettled assurance for those who don't have a solid foundation of trust in what the word of God actually says, thus gravitating over into the non-defined and unmapped territories of allegory and symbolism that have no absolute rules for interpretation.
Then there's the severe lack of discipleship and grounding within churchianity. Without teachings on the assurances for salvation, lacking the Spirit’s witness and how faith grows, the blind followers end up not knowing how to be confident in what scripture says, also fueled by the typical, severe lack in personal study and prayer to seek the Spirit for His instruction as instructed in 1 John 2:27.
MM
A lot of these kind of controversies are resolved quite easily by simply taking at face value verses such as John 3:36:
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Other than the word "believeth" is a mistranslation of the Greek word pisteuo.
Theres no such thing as "believing " on or in the Son for everlasting life.
Hmm. I don't know what level of expertise you possess in language and translational skills, but Thayer's Greek Lexicon says the applicable definition in relation to the context and grammatical inflections, "to have a faith directed unto, believing or in faith to give oneself up to, Jesus..." Given that the wording does indicate that such faith leads to everlasting life, what's your contention? Please clarify.
MM
is about rediscovering NT pisteuo. We don't need to discover any new truths, we need to rediscover the old truths.
It's been apoximately 500 years since William Tindale realized he couldn't translate the most important word in the Greek texts into the English language.
What is the most important word in the NT?
It's the Greek word "pisteuo."
I'm aware of the word "Grace", but Grace avails nothing if pisteuo isn't fulfilled correctly.
Why couldn't Tindale correctly translate "pisteuo" into the English language?
It's because the English language has no word to translate pisteuo. The English language has no corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" like the Greek does.
What is the Greek word pisteuo?
"Pisteuo" is the corresponding verb to the noun "pistis". The Greek word "pistis" is where we get our English word "Faith".
Where is the corresponding verb to the noun "Faith" in the English language?
There is none! The words the English language should have had for Tindale and the other translators are "faithe", "faither", and "faithing". But those words are not in the English language and weren't available for Tindale and the others translators.
So what did William Tindale do?
Tindale had to make a choice, stop his translation into the English language, or choose a different word. He decided to use the words "believe", "believer", and "believing", 248 times.
Gods word specifically warns against anyone adding or subtracting from the primary texts. Even if done unintentionally, in my opinion he has laid the foundation for the wide path Jesus warns us about. Here we are, 500 years later, and most called out ones are standing on the mistranslated words "believe", "believer", and "believing". Thinking, if i simply "believe " in what Jesus said, did, and promised, I will immediately receive the Grace deposit or Holy Spirit. That's not the correct response to the call of the Father required to start, maintain, and complete the salvation journey here on earth.
Here are some facts about the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.
1) These words are not in the Greek language. Our teachers, churches, Bible colleges, and internet claim that if i look up the word "believe" in the Greek, it means "pisteuo". Pisteuo was mistranslated into the English, and then stamped back out onto the Greek. The Greek does not acknowledge a state of being where one is only " believing" in something. In the Greek, we are either moving towards something, "pisteuo", or the reverse action, moving away from something, "Apisteuo". No neutral or middle ground in the Greek
2) The mistranslated words believe, believing, and believer change the "object of faith" from a one on one personal relationship with God, a real living person, to what He did, said, and promised. Gods word cannot be the object of faith, it must be the living person.
3) Pisteuo is a verb, an action word that encompasses 3 parts. A specific act (the personal surrender to Him) based upon a belief (that he will accept the surrendered life) sustained by confidence (by making all the 100s of daily decisions supporting the fact our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.) "Believing " is only one of the 3, taken on its own is error.
4) Believe, believer, and believing are corresponding verbs to the noun "belief", not the noun "faith".
5) The definition of "believe " is "an opinion held in good faith without the necessary reference to its proof."
6) The Strongs gives the disclaimer "pisteuo means not just to believe. The Vines definition of pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " This is not a one time surrender, it's surrendering every day, all day if necessary, making a better one each day. This is the perfecting process. Saints are not people who are perfect, Saints are candidates for perfection. God is not looking a perfect surrendered life, simply a genuine one.
7) God sees us from A to Z, "A" being what He wants first. (And that's someone who will continuously surrender their lives to Him, and live a life that supports that surrender. )
We see God from Z to A, "Z" being what we want first. ( And that's His Grace deposit and His promises. )
Salvation is by Grace "through faith," (faithing) through a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
Jay
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I see that you appear to be fixated on singular word parallels rather than accepting a stated concept definition for meaning. That's what the Lexicon provided that I quoted.
Through the years, I've read many an article where people bemoan the lack of exact, singular word parallels between some Greek words and some Hebrew words, and so we then must resort to stated meaning that is adequate for conveying that foreign meaning within those other languages. People of other languages and cultures aren't so far removed from others that the understanding for meaning can't be conveyed by any means. The idea that the ancients had words with our having no way of expressing in English, which I find to be highly weaponized jargon used plentiously by cults like Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses in their respective literatures. They like to use that as their battering ram to silence other's objections to their contrived barriers as a defensive tactic for their concepts and ideas that are clearly not at all biblical.
I'm not saying that you're subscribing to such tactics, but I've seen enough of these studies to know that its a false dichotomy in translational practices.
"Pisteuo," then, is known to have meaning well within the confines of our Westernized vocabulary. Depending on context it can mean:
- believe (something is true)
- trust (in someone)
- have faith (in, or toward)
- be persuaded
Quite a few other words may be brought into play that can enrich the understanding, but I'm not so convinced that this is an insurmountable barrier.
MM
After thinking on this cause there seems to be many doctrines .What is probably the the problem is the baptism.I can only share what i know First believe then get baptized .How to be baptized is ibelieve in Jesus and be baptized in Jesus Name. Now Jesus has The Authority to Cut a place to again finish baptized The Holy Spirit Abode.This is How it should be done if you understood The Gospel property.? So if you are religion baptized, by all means go get baptized By Jesus its what All the apostles wrote about and recieved.
