What exactly is our soul?

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@Gideon300 thinks we are spirits because the word spirit is used over 300 times in the OT. Unfortunately, he has yet to show where any one of those verses calls man a spirit.


I disagree with what you are saying.

God created two souls in Gen.1:27, formed one body in Gen2:7 and breathed into that body 2 lives, ( the breath of lives, plural) the breath of spiritual life and the breath of human life that he created in Gen.1:27. In so doing, Adam became a living soul, a soul alive in space and time. Our spirits are not created, they are generated by the Holy Spirit. Jn.3:6 Just as our flesh is of the substance of our parent's flesh, so too is the human spirit of the substance of God for our spirit is born of God the Holy Spirit. This why we are not born with a human spirit for what has righteousness to do with unrighteousness? Until we identify with Christ we are soul and body only.

That is your meaning, not obvious to me at all. Body + spirit does not equal soul. The souls under the altar in Revelation should make that obvious for they do not have bodies at that stage, they still await the Resurrection. Rev.6:9

Soul is a unique creation that only God can create and is the essence of who and what we are as human beings, created in the image of the Son who is Spirit and Soul in union.

Hmm. My Bibles (RSV, NIV, ASB, etc.) have "a living being", although because Adam means mankind (every human soul),
I guess "lives" could be viewed as implied.

Everything/one other than the One/God is created!

In Rev. 6:9, John could see the souls because they had bodies.
Do you baptize for the dead?
 
Hmm. My Bibles (RSV, NIV, ASB, etc.) have "a living being", although because Adam means mankind (every human soul),
I guess "lives" could be viewed as implied.

Everything/one other than the One/God is created!

In Rev. 6:9, John could see the souls because they had bodies.
Do you baptize for the dead?

How could they have bodies when the Resurrection had not occurred?

I don't believe in water baptism at all. One baptism and that is with the Spirit.

ps the man in Gen.1:27 is singular
 
How could they have bodies when the Resurrection had not occurred?

I don't believe in water baptism at all. One baptism and that is with the Spirit.

ps the man in Gen.1:27 is singular

How could John see souls without bodies (Rev. 6:9)?

Yes man is them, male and female, in Gen. 1:27.
Thus, living being/soul implies living beings/souls.

Spirit baptism is essential for salvation, but water baptism is an apt rite
portraying/memorializing Christ's death and resurrection, so there is nothing wrong
with doing it with the right understanding--which Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 do not convey,
so Paul cleaned the doctrine up in Eph. 4:4-6, 1Cor. 12:13, Rom. 5:5 & 8:9.
 
God breathed the breath of life into man. Yes, man is a being with a soul and that soul has life in itself. It is the natural life that enabled Adam to function. However, it was not God's intent for Adam to live from his soul indefinitely. The tree of Life was to be Adam's life. But Adam chose the fruit tree of the tree of knowledge of good and evil instead. The rest is history.

That man is spirit, soul and body is clear from God's word. It is the spirit of man that was in the image of God - God is Spirit - and that is the part of man's being that died. Death is not the end of existence. Fundamentally, it is separation from God. It is also the spirit of man that is born again.

Amen!
 
Surely, God would have spoken to them in a language that they could understand. We are not told what that language was. There weren't even any Hebrew people when Adam and Eve were here, let alone a Hebrew language. So whether or not the Hebrew for "Thou shalt not eat" could have more than one translation, that would make no difference to Adam and Eve. Surely you are not saying that God gave them a command that was unclear to them in its meaning.
In man communication there are always four messages, but since God is involved, we can reduce that to just three. For humans though there is what we want to send as a message (verbally or however), what we do send, the message the other person receives and what the other person understand the message to be. With God the first two messages are the same, but the last two remain.

But that does not address what the message God delivered was, nor the point that Adam and Eve decided that there was an Adam and an Eve who could ignore the message from God, and I maintain that it was the "discovery" of this second Adam and Eve who could get away with ignoring what God said that was, and is, the original sin, the exact same sin that every human participates in, that there is a "me" who can get away with whatever,
 
I cannot decide whether you and sawdust disagree or not regarding the meaning of Gen. 2:7,
which clearly indicates that God breathed the spirit/life into the body and the result was a soul: body + spirit = soul.
At least agree regarding that obvious meaning before moving on to other passages, and when you do so, harmonize!

Obviously the HS is not a body, saved souls receive a spiritual/supernatural body in heaven, being in the image of God means being able to fellowship with God--or not, being born again means that a soul is indwelt by the HS, etc. Isn't harmony wonderful? :love:
Sawdust does not believe that the unsaved have a spirit. God's word says otherwise.
 
That reply does not explain why you became emotionally defensive, but okay.
That was gaslighting....

So.... " OK... stay where you are."

I do not know why I am trying to help you out. ;)

.......
 
Yes, Gen. 2:7 clearly means every human soul has a spirit and body.
Only saved souls receive the Holy Spirit.
Saved souls before the Church age did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Some received power for a needed task by means of the Holy Spirit.
But, most only received their human spirit when they believed.

Many get confused about "born again."
They fail to see that when Jesus told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again before the Holy Spirit was being given.

He needed a HUMAN SPIRIT!
 
How could John see souls without bodies (Rev. 6:9)?

Yes man is them, male and female, in Gen. 1:27.
Thus, living being/soul implies living beings/souls.

Spirit baptism is essential for salvation, but water baptism is an apt rite
portraying/memorializing Christ's death and resurrection, so there is nothing wrong
with doing it with the right understanding--which Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 do not convey,
so Paul cleaned the doctrine up in Eph. 4:4-6, 1Cor. 12:13, Rom. 5:5 & 8:9.

How can they have bodies without a resurrection?

How could the witch of Endor see Samuel but Saul could not, yet Saul could hear him? 1Sam.28:12-15
Why do you think Paul was unsure whether "in the body or out" when he was transported to heaven? 2Cor.12:3
Perception works differently. The realm of the unseen works as differently to the realm of the seen as quantum physics works to macro physics.

How you insist in spirit and body equals soul has me baffled as upon death the spirit returns to God Ecc.12:7 yet the soul descends to Sheol (prior to the Cross). Ps.30:3 The body is with neither for it is in the earth.

As for baptism, I'm not interested in the discussion. If people want to get dunked that's their business. I don't much care either way as long as they believe the Gospel.

As for your middle paragraph? No idea what you are trying to say. :unsure:
 
With God's word. Fine. Your argument is with God, not me.

No, my argument is with you not God. God calls us souls, you are the one insisting we are spirits, not God.

Show me, of those 387 verses, which one calls us spirits and I may change my mind but as far as I am aware not a one will be found, it will only speak of man as having a spirit, not being a spirit.
 
Saved souls before the Church age did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Some received power for a needed task by means of the Holy Spirit.
But, most only received their human spirit when they believed.

Many get confused about "born again."
They fail to see that when Jesus told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again before the Holy Spirit was being given.

He needed a HUMAN SPIRIT!

It is true that the OT did not teach much about the HS, but it said a lot about GW, which the NT indicates is essentially synonymous.
Thus, the questions is, "Did OT believers manifest godly fruit without having the HS or was the HS working without their knowledge?"
Here is my understanding of Spiritual dynamics, referring to how God’s HS interacts and communicates/communes with humans.

It begins primitively when selfish but innocent babies attain the stage of moral accountability or conscience as they are able to understand what their parents deem to be right and wrong beliefs and behavior, which is normally well-developed by the age of eight or the stage of pre-pubescence, comparable to when Adam and Eve became aware it was wrong to eat from the forbidden tree (Gen. 2:17).

During this stage a soul’s relationship with God begins when the person becomes a truthseeker (2Thes. 2:10), cf. Matt. 7:7, Heb. 11:6), because God’s Spirit is Truth (1John 5:6), although the young soul may not realize it (Mark 12:33-34, Rom. 1:17). As a truthseeker at any time in history contemplates creation, Paul indicates that they will be able to discern God’s being and loving will in nature (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-15, Gal 5:14) by means of what theologians call general revelation. In this regard it is good to plumb the depths of Gen. 1:1-3 describing the Spirit of God’s presence as God spoke creation into existence and connect it with John 1:1-3 saying the Word was in the beginning and through Him all things were made (cf. Acts 17:27-28).

When truthseekers realize that God has a moral requirement, if they worship Him they become like Abraham, and the relationship with God becomes personal (Rom. 4:1-25). Presumably God provides such believers the opportunity to learn the proto-gospel, so they may repent of sin and accept the pre-incarnate foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Christ (cf. Gen. 3:21), whether in the form of Abraham’s ram (Gen. 22:13) or Moses’ lamb (Exo. 12:21). At the moment of worship and saving faith like Abraham, the Spirit of Christ/God’s Holy Spirit enters the believer’s spiritual heart— again even though they may not realize it–because Paul taught that whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ (Rom. 8:9).

Paul referred to Abrahamic faith as spiritual circumcision (Rom. 2:29, 4:3-12). Of course, partial knowledge of GW and spiritual dynamics will limit ability to cooperate with God, so there is a need for evangelism and learning the full Gospel (Matt. 28:19-20). For those who died as pre-NT believers, this must occur in heaven (cf. 1Pet. 4:6). Again, if a moralist truthseeker (on the basis of general revelation) encounters God (perhaps via the OT revelation), then he/she may believe or become a theist, like Abraham and Moses. If theists are taught the Gospel (NT revelation), then they may choose to believe/accept Jesus as Christ and receive the HS. In all cases salvation is a gift/grace from God received by faith “from first to last” (Rom. 1:17).

With greater awareness because of learning the NT Gospel, when a truthseeker confesses Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Acts 20:21, Rom. 10:9), the HS indwells the convert’s heart (Rom. 5:5) and unites him/her with God as heavenly Father (Rom. 8:9)–which moment is called spiritual rebirth (John 3:3-8), baptism by the Spirit (Matt. 3:11/Mark 1:8/Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, 1Cor. 12:13) and receiving the Spirit of adoption/sonship (Rom. 8:14-16).

The outward evidence that someone was baptized by the HS (Rom. 5:5) and is Spirit-filled (Eph. 5:18) or walking with God is the fullness of Christ (Eph. 3:19, 4:13) or fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23), which is signified by “love” (Gal. 5:6, Matt. 22:37-40). Jesus said “All men will know that you are my disciples if you love one another” (John 13:35, 1John 4:7-21), because divine love sums up the moral character of God (1John 4:7-8).

There seems to be no reason not to think these spiritual dynamics happened before the church age without people realizing it,
because these truths were not fully revealed.

Over...
 
How can they have bodies without a resurrection?

How could the witch of Endor see Samuel but Saul could not, yet Saul could hear him? 1Sam.28:12-15
Why do you think Paul was unsure whether "in the body or out" when he was transported to heaven? 2Cor.12:3
Perception works differently. The realm of the unseen works as differently to the realm of the seen as quantum physics works to macro physics.

How you insist in spirit and body equals soul has me baffled as upon death the spirit returns to God Ecc.12:7 yet the soul descends to Sheol (prior to the Cross). Ps.30:3 The body is with neither for it is in the earth.

As for baptism, I'm not interested in the discussion. If people want to get dunked that's their business. I don't much care either way as long as they believe the Gospel.

As for your middle paragraph? No idea what you are trying to say. :unsure:

Yes, it may be complicated, but Gen. 2:7 seems simple.

I interpret/harmonize Ecc. 12:7 with 1Cor. 15:35-54.

My main interest regarding WB is to teach folks that it is symbolic of SB rather than salvific
per harmonizing Mark 16:16 & Acts 2:38 with 1Cor. 12:13 & Eph. 4:4-6.

My middle paragraph was trying to express agreement by harmonizing the singular and plurals in Gen. 1:26-27 & 2:7,
by viewing Adam as both mankind and a man.
 
It is true that the OT did not teach much about the HS, but it said a lot about GW, which the NT indicates is essentially synonymous.
Thus, the questions is, "Did OT believers manifest godly fruit without having the HS or was the HS working without their knowledge?"
Here is my understanding of Spiritual dynamics, referring to how God’s HS interacts and communicates/communes with humans.

It begins primitively when selfish but innocent babies attain the stage of moral accountability or conscience as they are able to understand what their parents deem to be right and wrong beliefs and behavior, which is normally well-developed by the age of eight or the stage of pre-pubescence, comparable to when Adam and Eve became aware it was wrong to eat from the forbidden tree (Gen. 2:17).

During this stage a soul’s relationship with God begins when the person becomes a truthseeker (2Thes. 2:10), cf. Matt. 7:7, Heb. 11:6), because God’s Spirit is Truth (1John 5:6), although the young soul may not realize it (Mark 12:33-34, Rom. 1:17). As a truthseeker at any time in history contemplates creation, Paul indicates that they will be able to discern God’s being and loving will in nature (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-15, Gal 5:14) by means of what theologians call general revelation. In this regard it is good to plumb the depths of Gen. 1:1-3 describing the Spirit of God’s presence as God spoke creation into existence and connect it with John 1:1-3 saying the Word was in the beginning and through Him all things were made (cf. Acts 17:27-28).

When truthseekers realize that God has a moral requirement, if they worship Him they become like Abraham, and the relationship with God becomes personal (Rom. 4:1-25). Presumably God provides such believers the opportunity to learn the proto-gospel, so they may repent of sin and accept the pre-incarnate foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Christ (cf. Gen. 3:21), whether in the form of Abraham’s ram (Gen. 22:13) or Moses’ lamb (Exo. 12:21). At the moment of worship and saving faith like Abraham, the Spirit of Christ/God’s Holy Spirit enters the believer’s spiritual heart— again even though they may not realize it–because Paul taught that whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ (Rom. 8:9).

Paul referred to Abrahamic faith as spiritual circumcision (Rom. 2:29, 4:3-12). Of course, partial knowledge of GW and spiritual dynamics will limit ability to cooperate with God, so there is a need for evangelism and learning the full Gospel (Matt. 28:19-20). For those who died as pre-NT believers, this must occur in heaven (cf. 1Pet. 4:6). Again, if a moralist truthseeker (on the basis of general revelation) encounters God (perhaps via the OT revelation), then he/she may believe or become a theist, like Abraham and Moses. If theists are taught the Gospel (NT revelation), then they may choose to believe/accept Jesus as Christ and receive the HS. In all cases salvation is a gift/grace from God received by faith “from first to last” (Rom. 1:17).

With greater awareness because of learning the NT Gospel, when a truthseeker confesses Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Acts 20:21, Rom. 10:9), the HS indwells the convert’s heart (Rom. 5:5) and unites him/her with God as heavenly Father (Rom. 8:9)–which moment is called spiritual rebirth (John 3:3-8), baptism by the Spirit (Matt. 3:11/Mark 1:8/Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, 1Cor. 12:13) and receiving the Spirit of adoption/sonship (Rom. 8:14-16).

The outward evidence that someone was baptized by the HS (Rom. 5:5) and is Spirit-filled (Eph. 5:18) or walking with God is the fullness of Christ (Eph. 3:19, 4:13) or fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23), which is signified by “love” (Gal. 5:6, Matt. 22:37-40). Jesus said “All men will know that you are my disciples if you love one another” (John 13:35, 1John 4:7-21), because divine love sums up the moral character of God (1John 4:7-8).

There seems to be no reason not to think these spiritual dynamics happened before the church age without people realizing it,
because these truths were not fully revealed.

Over...

No one received the *permanently indwelling* Holy Spirit until after Jesus had ascended back to Heaven and was glorified!


On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice,
“Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as
Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.
Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
John 7:37-39​
 
My middle paragraph was trying to express agreement by harmonizing the singular and plurals in Gen. 1:26-27 & 2:7,
by viewing Adam as both mankind and a man.

Except each verse has "man" in the singular, not the plural.