I was not arguing for a post tribulation rapture. My point was that neither rapture or tribulation are even mentioned in those verses from Acts 1.
What will the coming of Jesus be like?
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As far as I know, tthere are two ways to interpret it. One literal, the other one - spiritual. For the most part the literal is known, and so the Lord is expected to come literally in the clouds in the sky, above them, with the great hosts of the angels, which will play the trumpets. Also, the stars will fall on the earth, and there will be the processes affecting the sun and the moon.
The spiritual exposition, or the one, founded on the spiritual sense of the Word, is somewhat different, for it sees those prophecies under the spiritual aspect, and thus speaks about the events, which have affected the church spiritually.
"He shall return in like manner"
Definately the rapture.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
But the gathering of the bride is not mentioned in the account of the ascension.
He comes in the sky in like manner.
Are you saying he does not?
The sky, and Jesus being in it, are a no brainer.
The "like manner", is only in a pretrib rapture model.
Nothing else fits.
All rapture verses are in a pretrib model stting.
The postrib rapture theory, has to reconcile , a pretrib setting in the rapture as Jesus himself depicted. (nope, none of you do)
IOW that postrib rapture model can not possibly be true.
Jesus himself taught a pretrib rapture.
4 times.
4 separate times.
Was Jesus wrong?
out Lord will return with glory power and an a multitude of angels, all eyes will see Him. Here are the verses themselves from the ASV.
"But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:29-30)
"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory." (Mark 13:26)
"And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." (Luke 21:25-27)
"But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory." (Matthew 25:31)
"And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:31)
"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven." (Acts 1:11)
"Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen." (Revelation 1:7)
"And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself. And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure. And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (Revelation 19:11-16)
"I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." (Daniel 7:13-14)
"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the mount of Olives shall be cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south." (Zechariah 14:4)
"And ye shall flee by the valley of my mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azel; yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and Jehovah my God shall come, and all the holy ones with thee." (Zechariah 14:5)
"And Jehovah will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but Jehovah will be a refuge unto his people, and a stronghold to the children of Israel." (Joel 3:16)
"For thus saith Jehovah of hosts: Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land." (Haggai 2:6)
"Our God cometh, and doth not keep silence: A fire devoureth before him, And it is very tempestuous round about him." (Psalm 50:3)
"For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west, so shall be the coming of the Son of man." (Matthew 24:27)
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds." (Matthew 16:27)
"Watch therefore: for ye know not on what day your Lord cometh." (Matthew 24:42)
"Therefore be ye also ready; for in an hour that ye think not the Son of man cometh." (Matthew 24:44)
These passages together give one of the fullest biblical descriptions of the return of Christ: with signs in the heavens, clouds, great glory, angels, a trumpet, fire, shaking of heaven and earth, the gathering of His people, and judgment upon the nations.
Sorry, I obviously haven't been clear enough. I was not putting forward any argument about the rapture. All I was saying was that the accounts of His ascension mention neither the rapture nor the tribulation, so the fact that the angel told the disciples that His Second Coming would be in like manner to His Ascension.
(As far as pretrib/posttrib is concerned, I don't believe in a Second and Third coming of Christ, the Second for the saints, and the Third for unrepentant sinners, but these things are not stated, as far as I can see, in the account of the Ascension .)
When I read all the verses and compare scripture and the examples from the past all I can see is that God's people will go through the time of trouble and Jesus will come at the end.
The wicked will be sad and the saved will rejoice.
The thing that I don't agree with most people is where Jesus and the saved will be after He comes.
The wicked will be sad and the saved will rejoice.
The thing that I don't agree with most people is where Jesus and the saved will be after He comes.
The return from heaven with the saints on millions of horses blackening the sky, as a warrior executioner, in power and glory of Rev 19's " the second coming to earth", is definately not in "like manner" to the acts 1 ascention.
Miles from it.
That is the fact of that passage.
The gathering of the bride in mat 25 is pretrib.
(A coming)
The warrior with saints army on horses from Rev 19 .
(Another coming)
The Son sitting on a cloud holding a sickle in Rev 14.
( another coming)
If we are honest, we can embrace God's word.
Pretrib rapture doctrine reconciles all of that.
Postrib reframes, reinvents, and omits all of that.
Ask a postribber to interpret the 10 virgin parable.( and factor that into a "one coming" model)
("One coming" forever debunked, if we get honest with it.)
Actually nowhere did they say "second coming"
That is doctrine read into it.
They did say he will return in like manner.
So that RULES OUT the coming in Rev 19 on millions of horses.
So yes, acts 1 is definately pointing to the pretrib rapture.
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
Amen.
The ac revealed, pretrib, then the pretrib rapture.
Thank you Jesus for your word.
What about Noah?
He went through the trouble
He went through the flood.
God protected him.
What about Israel?
They went through the plagues in Egypt
All Ten of them.
They walked out free.
God protected the faithful.
The faithful will go through the hard times but God will protect His people.
The seal of God is placed in the foreheads of the saved.
With all His saints...
Saints = G40 hagios
Thayer Definition: most holy thing, a saint
Origin: from hagos (an awful thing) [cf G53, H2282]
Strong's Definition: From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
This could very easily apply to the Holy beings in heaven that come to the earth with Jesus. Which we know from other verses is going to happen. Matt 24:30,31
That one verse does not imply Jesus will reign 1000 years on Earth.
The order of events ...
Jesus returns with power and glory.
1 Thes 4:16.
Ascension of the Saints to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Destruction of the Wicked by the brightness of His coming and the plagues.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
2 Thessalonians 2:8
The earth is left in a state of total desolation, "without form and void," served as a prison for Satan for the duration of the 1000 years
Jeremiah 4:23-27
Revelation 20:1-3
Judgment in Heaven: During this millennium, the saints sit on thrones in heaven, and judgment is given to them as they reign with Christ. Revelation 20:4
There are several conclusive reasons why the millennial reign takes place in heaven rather than on the earth:
The Earth is Empty: Multiple prophecies state that the Lord "maketh the earth empty" and that the land shall be "utterly spoiled" and "without inhabitant" at His coming. Isaiah 24:1-3
Jeremiah 4:25
Jesus said ... Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jesus promised The Destination of the Saints was going to be a place for them in His "Father’s house" and He would return to take them there so they could be where He is. The sin stained Earth is not God's House.
Christ currently sits on His Father's throne in heaven; the idea that He would occupy two separate thrones—one in heaven and one on earth—simultaneously for 1000 years is a something the scriptures do not support. Hebrews 8:1
Revelation 3:21
The "rest of the dead" (the wicked or second resurrection) do not live again until the thousand years are finished, meaning there are no subjects on earth for the saints to reign over if they were on Earth. Revelation 20:5
The Final Purification: The elements only melt with fervent heat and the earth is purified by fire after the 1000 years, when the wicked are raised and the New Jerusalem descends
2 Peter 3:10-12
Revelation 21:1-2
The Close of the Millennium
At the termination of the thousand years, the final scenes take place:
The Third Advent: Christ, the saints, and the Holy City descend to the earth.
Zechariah 14:4-5
Revelation 21:2
Resurrection of the Unjust: The wicked dead are raised in the second resurrection, providing Satan with subjects to deceive once more Revelation 20:5, 7-8
Final Destruction: Satan marshals the resurrected wicked to attack the "camp of the saints," but fire comes down from God and devours them, which is the second death Revelation 20:9-10
The New Earth: After the earth is purified by fire, it is renewed, and the saints inherit it forever 2 Peter 3:13
Revelation 21:1.
That for me is not the 2nd Coming. 2nd coming is Him setting foot on the earth.. He did not say where you are I will be. We look at time.. there is not time there. So its been about 3 days.. since He went up.. And He can not lie.. He will come receive us unto Himself so "where" He is we will be. I just take Him at His word.. To be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. Yet some well disagree with that saying you die you stay in the grave.. no no you die you go right to the Father.
I was not promised tomorrow.. so I make the free choice to watch be ready for Him now.. I expect Him every moment I live.. live for Him. I will never miss Him. He came.. died for the worlds sin.. was buried.. rose the 3rd day.. is seated at the right hand of the Father.. the only way to the Father.. He will come in the Air.. voice shout trump and dead will rise.. I like what Paul said.. he put himself in that.. "we which remain" will be caught up together to be with Him forever. We are the ones in this world that have been given all power all authority over the enemy. As long as we are still here .. I believe.. the enemy can never come out in the open. Something has to be taken out of the way.. then and only then will the lawless one come out in the open.
For me.... if Lot had to be gone.. as long as you are here I can do nothing. What's coming from what I read.. is coming on the whole earth and all in it. No place to hide. I will never see my Fathers wrath. There are millions and millions of righteous in this world. In the end.. I have this moment.. so I focus on it.. to share Him.. to all.. I don't want to do it because I was told to.. I want to because ...its just in me.. and you the same.