The Law or Good Works? What's the Difference...if Any?

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For perspective, let's take a gander at this:

James 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James, then, was addressing Israel, not Gentiles under Paul's ministry. My fellow believing Jews in Israel and abroad were still practicing adherence to the Mosaic Law. That gospel is another gospel not preached by Paul, but it was preached by Peter and the other eleven. That is not FOR us today. So, when you speak of bridging "the gap," How does one do that without creating more problems than what they think they're solving? Please elaborate.



So, let's bring this into perspective:

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

How far afield of sin is a believer who falls into unbelief? Are they like a wife beater or an alcoholic? Is there a difference? Do you not still commit sin daily like all the rest of all who are believers?

Given that your references speak of "death," where in that context is it speaking of loss of salvation...spiritual death? I can't see that anywhere. Mere death from within this life isn't akin to loss of salvation. If you're going to transliterate or inject salvation into that context, please show how that is consistent with that context without redefining terms. Willful sin for believers can and has led to an early physical death for many, but I don't see spiritual death as the focus in that context, even though many professing believers have that painted on their lenses of subjectivity through which they tend to read scripture.

Thanks

MM
If James was preaching in essence a different gospel from Paul, why did Paul go to Jerusalem to have decided which Jewish laws gentiles be asked to follow? What business would it have been of theirs? James suggestion was accepted by the council, and sent in a letter via Paul to the gentile churches. Paul said, Peter, James and John were known as the pillars of the church, he did not say a different church.
I chatted to a young Israelite on the internet years ago. He said he followed as much as possible of Torah/Mosaic law, but it had nothing to do with his acceptance before God, that was through Christ alone. That would make his acceptance before God the same as ours wouldnt it.
I think you need to draw the distinction between intermittent doubts most believers may go through in their lives and a complete abdication of faith
I think discernment is needed
If you asked nearly all christians if you had to be sinless to be saved they would repond ''No'' for thewy know they are not without sin(1John1:8)
However, if you asked nearly all christians if you could live a wanton lifestyle of sin, or live a life described by Paul as a slave to sin, they would also respond ''No'' (1John3:9)
Personally for example, I've never met any christian who would believe such a person was saved as I previously described to you if they kept on and on living like that over a period of months let us say after they claimed to have gotten saved.
 
Folks, if our salvation were at all dependent upon our performance and/or our faithfulness, where is that imaginary line located for loss of salvation...if it existed at all?

Nobody can seem to answer that question given that we all sin, occupy bodies of sin, and so therefore sin even after faith and salvation.

MM
Do you not draw the line anywhere?
Example, someone claims to have gotten saved, they then go out and commit rape, murder, sexually assault children for a few months, and much more besides.
Would you say we cannot say they are not saved because of their performance/how they live as we all commit sin?
 
Folks, if our salvation were at all dependent upon our performance and/or our faithfulness, where is that imaginary line located for loss of salvation...if it existed at all?

Nobody can seem to answer that question given that we all sin, occupy bodies of sin, and so therefore sin even after faith and salvation.

MM
Jesus did speak about faithfulness AND perseverance. want these verses? I can provide.
 
If James was preaching in essence a different gospel from Paul, why did Paul go to Jerusalem to have decided which Jewish laws gentiles be asked to follow?

You've asked a reasonable question. In answer, let's go to scriptures:

Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Notice the grammar. The Lord could have inspired it to be written:

'The gospel of the uncircumcision unto me and to the circumcision unto Peter,' if they were one and the same, but they were not.

Why?

Galatians 1:11-12
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul persecuted the believing Jews on the basis of what he had been informed about from men, but what he preached to Gentiles and the body of Christ, he received it from no other man, but from Christ Himself. This shows conclusively that what he preached to Gentiles waS NOT WHAT HE LEARNED from the twelve apostles.

To say otherwise is to contradict the scriptures and many a professing believer does just that these days.

What business would it have been of theirs? James suggestion was accepted by the council, and sent in a letter via Paul to the gentile churches. Paul said, Peter, James and John were known as the pillars of the church, he did not say a different church.

When we read scripture for what it says, we see that Paul adopted more than one means by which he established his apostleship in the face of some who cast shadows upon his authority to preach. Paul's gospel included preaching to Jews that they should forsake the Law and to not circumcize their children...something the believing Jews clearly were opposed:

Acts 21:20-21
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

See that? I encourage you to read the context to see for yourself that Paul did not defend himself against that accusation because it was absolutely true, as recorded in other of his epistles.

So, it makes perfect sense that Paul would seek out the twelve for verification of his apostleship and to verify his teaching to those under his preaching that they were not required to follow the Mosaic Law. The Judaizers were not in error except for when they tried to preach the Kingdom Gospel of the twelve to those under Paul's Gospel and ministry. Therein is why Paul said:

Galatians 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul wasn't saying the Kingdom Gospel was false, but was and is ANOTHER gospel, and when that gospel is preached to those under his gospel, those doing so are to be accursed. Notice that the accursedness only applied when that other gospel was preached UNTO YOU. That is a direct address to those under his gospel and preaching. Again, they could not be one and the same, otherwise it would have made no sense to establish that wedge of division between the two groupings. Paul only preached to those who had not yet been under the preaching of the twelve:

Romans 15:20
Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

I chatted to a young Israelite on the internet years ago. He said he followed as much as possible of Torah/Mosaic law, but it had nothing to do with his acceptance before God, that was through Christ alone. That would make his acceptance before God the same as ours wouldnt it.

Is that a question or a statement. I'm Israeli who was once among the Messianic Jews, but I have long since walked away from them because of their strong adherence to Torah and the traditions. Some groupings are more adamant than others about that, but I could not in good conscience continue with them.

I think you need to draw the distinction between intermittent doubts most believers may go through in their lives and a complete abdication of faith
I think discernment is needed
If you asked nearly all christians if you had to be sinless to be saved they would repond ''No'' for thewy know they are not without sin(1John1:8)
However, if you asked nearly all christians if you could live a wanton lifestyle of sin, or live a life described by Paul as a slave to sin, they would also respond ''No'' (1John3:9)
Personally for example, I've never met any christian who would believe such a person was saved as I previously described to you if they kept on and on living like that over a period of months let us say after they claimed to have gotten saved.

Judgment for salvation rests ONLY in the Hands of the Almighty, not yours, mine or anyone else. If we see a brother in sin, we are to restore them in loving rebuke and exhortation, not tell them that they've strayed from God and are no longer saved. Those who engage that kind of Satanic mindset against others are themselves tools in the hands of the enemy of our souls.

MM
 
Do you not draw the line anywhere?
Example, someone claims to have gotten saved, they then go out and commit rape, murder, sexually assault children for a few months, and much more besides.
Would you say we cannot say they are not saved because of their performance/how they live as we all commit sin?

I noticed that you stick to safer wording. In other words, rather than to speak in relation to someone who was genuinely saved who then goes to rape and murder, etc. Instead, you slide along the cliff edge of hypotheticals by pointing at someone who CLAIMS to have been saved.

Which is it? Anyone can claim anything. What matter is the reality of their salvation or the lack thereof before going off into the life of sinful endeavors.

So, who have you ever known who was truly saved and went off into those things? If you're going to point to what appears to be straw men arguments posed in the form of hypotheticals, tell me your true experience with such, for I suspect that you lack any personal experience with such people.

Far too many professing believers inject salvation into key areas of scripture where the context is not at all dealing with salvation itself. It's too easy to do that, just like Charismatic whacko, charlatans who allegedly lengthen shorter legs by slightly slipping off the heel of the shoe of the person to make it look like there was a genuine lengthening of their leg. Never once have they raised up a dead body, but they will tell tales of all sorts that are not at all verifiable.

MM
 
I noticed that you stick to safer wording. In other words, rather than to speak in relation to someone who was genuinely saved who then goes to rape and murder, etc. Instead, you slide along the cliff edge of hypotheticals by pointing at someone who CLAIMS to have been saved.

Which is it? Anyone can claim anything. What matter is the reality of their salvation or the lack thereof before going off into the life of sinful endeavors.

So, who have you ever known who was truly saved and went off into those things? If you're going to point to what appears to be straw men arguments posed in the form of hypotheticals, tell me your true experience with such, for I suspect that you lack any personal experience with such people.

Far too many professing believers inject salvation into key areas of scripture where the context is not at all dealing with salvation itself. It's too easy to do that, just like Charismatic whacko, charlatans who allegedly lengthen shorter legs by slightly slipping off the heel of the shoe of the person to make it look like there was a genuine lengthening of their leg. Never once have they raised up a dead body, but they will tell tales of all sorts that are not at all verifiable.

MM
You could just admit, there would be occasions, given extreme enough circumstances where you would not consider someone saved by their actions
 
You've asked a reasonable question. In answer, let's go to scriptures:

Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Notice the grammar. The Lord could have inspired it to be written:

'The gospel of the uncircumcision unto me and to the circumcision unto Peter,' if they were one and the same, but they were not.

Why?

Galatians 1:11-12
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul persecuted the believing Jews on the basis of what he had been informed about from men, but what he preached to Gentiles and the body of Christ, he received it from no other man, but from Christ Himself. This shows conclusively that what he preached to Gentiles waS NOT WHAT HE LEARNED from the twelve apostles.

To say otherwise is to contradict the scriptures and many a professing believer does just that these days.



When we read scripture for what it says, we see that Paul adopted more than one means by which he established his apostleship in the face of some who cast shadows upon his authority to preach. Paul's gospel included preaching to Jews that they should forsake the Law and to not circumcize their children...something the believing Jews clearly were opposed:

Acts 21:20-21
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

See that? I encourage you to read the context to see for yourself that Paul did not defend himself against that accusation because it was absolutely true, as recorded in other of his epistles.

So, it makes perfect sense that Paul would seek out the twelve for verification of his apostleship and to verify his teaching to those under his preaching that they were not required to follow the Mosaic Law. The Judaizers were not in error except for when they tried to preach the Kingdom Gospel of the twelve to those under Paul's Gospel and ministry. Therein is why Paul said:

Galatians 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul wasn't saying the Kingdom Gospel was false, but was and is ANOTHER gospel, and when that gospel is preached to those under his gospel, those doing so are to be accursed. Notice that the accursedness only applied when that other gospel was preached UNTO YOU. That is a direct address to those under his gospel and preaching. Again, they could not be one and the same, otherwise it would have made no sense to establish that wedge of division between the two groupings. Paul only preached to those who had not yet been under the preaching of the twelve:

Romans 15:20
Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:



Is that a question or a statement. I'm Israeli who was once among the Messianic Jews, but I have long since walked away from them because of their strong adherence to Torah and the traditions. Some groupings are more adamant than others about that, but I could not in good conscience continue with them.



Judgment for salvation rests ONLY in the Hands of the Almighty, not yours, mine or anyone else. If we see a brother in sin, we are to restore them in loving rebuke and exhortation, not tell them that they've strayed from God and are no longer saved. Those who engage that kind of Satanic mindset against others are themselves tools in the hands of the enemy of our souls.

MM
There is nothing in what you have written that shows Paul did not believe he belonged to the same church as the other apostles.
The fact he was taught of Christ his message certainly does not prove that:

“We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” Acts10:39-43

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures 1Cor15:3&4

Seems the same to me.
 
Yes. Please do. One thing I will ask you to do is to also comment upon to whom He was speaking to at the time.

MM
oh you are one to think Jesus spoke only to the Jews! then I leave you in your crass voluntary ignorance, there is nothing I can do for you you would not listen anyways but I provide the verses as I said, i have little hope for you as you will not change. May the lord wake you up from the false doctrines you follow and preach here on this forum.

Jesus did not speak only about believing. He also taught faithfulness and perseverance. He said, “He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13, ASV). He warned, “Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life” (Revelation 2:10, ASV). He taught His disciples, “If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples” (John 8:31, ASV), and, “He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit” (John 15:5, ASV). In the parable of the sower, those who bear fruit are those “who in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, hold it fast, and bring forth fruit with patience” (Luke 8:15, ASV). Jesus consistently taught that true faith continues, remains faithful, and endures to the end.

Repent before its too late, you follow the wide path! what I wrote sounds harsh but its from the knowledge imparted to me by the Holy spirit, I am serious.
 
oh you are one to think Jesus spoke only to the Jews! then I leave you in your crass voluntary ignorance, there is nothing I can do for you you would not listen anyways but I provide the verses as I said, i have little hope for you as you will not change. May the lord wake you up from the false doctrines you follow and preach here on this forum.

Jesus did not speak only about believing. He also taught faithfulness and perseverance. He said, “He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13, ASV). He warned, “Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life” (Revelation 2:10, ASV). He taught His disciples, “If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples” (John 8:31, ASV), and, “He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit” (John 15:5, ASV). In the parable of the sower, those who bear fruit are those “who in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, hold it fast, and bring forth fruit with patience” (Luke 8:15, ASV). Jesus consistently taught that true faith continues, remains faithful, and endures to the end.

Repent before its too late, you follow the wide path! what I wrote sounds harsh but its from the knowledge imparted to me by the Holy spirit, I am serious.
Dispensationalists believe the covenant mentioned in Heb10:15-18 is only for Israelites at a future date.
However, their Apostle Paul believed:
The law was written in gentiles hearts(Rom2:14&15&2Cor3:3
He also believed gentiles sins and lawless deeds would be remembered no more
He also knew there were no more sacrifices for sin
So, the covenant dispensationalists insist is not for gentiles, is now practically speaking fully reflected in the lives of gentiles according to Paul
 
43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” Acts10:39-43

Thank you. Another verse to add to my list showing that all of the prophets were prophesying about Christ when they foretold the restoration of Israel

To this one all the prophets are witnessing, all the ones believing into him are obtaining pardon of sins through his name . Acts 10:43
 
Thank you. Another verse to add to my list showing that all of the prophets were prophesying about Christ when they foretold the restoration of Israel

To this one all the prophets are witnessing, all the ones believing into him are obtaining pardon of sins through his name . Acts 10:43
Didnt you already know that verse?
 
Notice the grammar. The Lord could have inspired it to be written:

'The gospel of the uncircumcision unto me and to the circumcision unto Peter,' if they were one and the same, but they were not.

Why?

Maybe he ordained it be written the way it is written to cause people like you stumble.
 
I noticed that you stick to safer wording. In other words, rather than to speak in relation to someone who was genuinely saved who then goes to rape and murder, etc. Instead, you slide along the cliff edge of hypotheticals by pointing at someone who CLAIMS to have been saved.

Which is it? Anyone can claim anything. What matter is the reality of their salvation or the lack thereof before going off into the life of sinful endeavors.

So, who have you ever known who was truly saved and went off into those things? If you're going to point to what appears to be straw men arguments posed in the form of hypotheticals, tell me your true experience with such, for I suspect that you lack any personal experience with such people.

Far too many professing believers inject salvation into key areas of scripture where the context is not at all dealing with salvation itself. It's too easy to do that, just like Charismatic whacko, charlatans who allegedly lengthen shorter legs by slightly slipping off the heel of the shoe of the person to make it look like there was a genuine lengthening of their leg. Never once have they raised up a dead body, but they will tell tales of all sorts that are not at all verifiable.

MM
But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2@17&18

Can you answer some questions pertaining to the passage please

Justification is instantaneous when someone accepts Christ as their saviour. The justification Paul is writing about clearly takes time to be seen. What justification is he writing about?
Why does he ask the question:
Doesn't that mean that Christ promotes sin?
And what does he mean when he states:
Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker.