The book of Job

[tttallison]

As we study the bible we need to keep our eyes on only what the bible says and not what man says, unless what that man says totally agrees with what the Word says.

It has been said that Job had faith, but where does the bible say that? It can be said that Job ended up having faith, but where is Job’s faith in the first 41 chapters of the book of Job?

We know that Job did not make the faith honor role in Hebrews. What did James say? Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Where is Job’s work’s?

In the first test Job did not charge God foolishly. Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. After the second test Job charged God foolishly time and time again. In fact, God said Job reproved him.

Why did James mention Job?​

The epistle of James was written to the twelve tribes, who are his brethren, so we need to look at their history. In Deuteronomy they are called the apple of God’s eye, similar to what God said about Job in the beginning of the book of Job.

In their journey through the wilderness the Jews behaved so badly God threatened to destroy them. And then in Judges we see time and again that God would bless the Jews with favor and the Jews would be thankful, but after a number of years they would turn from God, and then God would chastise them, then they would repent and God would bless them again. This occurred over and over again.

James chapter five, in which Job is mentioned, starts with five verses that could easily depict Job. The question becomes, how could God declare Job blameless and upright if that is a picture of Job? The answer would have to be that Job behaved this way in ignorance, and God gave him a pass.

The first thing God said to Job was that Job was without knowledge. Job thought he was doing right, and because Job, in his pride, tried to do the right thing, God showed him mercy. Trying to do right and being right are not the same thing. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Paul said, Rom 10:1-3 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

God said, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

James presented Job to the Jews as being a picture of Israel. Job was the apple of God’s eye, and then he was chastised, but he endured the chastisement, and that was the picture James wanted portrayed, that they Jews shouldn’t give up.

Jesus said, Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. Job was the richest man of the East.

 

[DavidLamb]

As we study the bible we need to keep our eyes on only what the bible says and not what man says, unless what that man says totally agrees with what the Word says.

It has been said that Job had faith, but where does the bible say that? It can be said that Job ended up having faith, but where is Job’s faith in the first 41 chapters of the book of Job?

(Job 19:25 NKJV) For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;
(Job 19:26) And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God,
(Job 19:27) Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!

We know that Job did not make the faith honor role in Hebrews.

There are many godly Old Testament characters who are not mentioned in Hebrews 11. The writer makes clear that he has not named all the Old Testament faithful. He ends the chapter:

(Heb 11:32) And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets:
(Heb 11:33) who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
(Heb 11:34) quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
(Heb 11:35) Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.
(Heb 11:36) Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment.
(Heb 11:37) They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented—
(Heb 11:38) of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
(Heb 11:39) And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
(Heb 11:40) God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

 

[ZNP]

The Path from the Ash Heap to the Throne, A coaching manual for the order of Melchizedek

The_path_from_the_ash_heap_to_the_throne.pdf

drive.google.com

The most original claim in the book is the identification of Job as the Leviticus of the Melchizedekian order — the canonical constitution for a priesthood that predates the Levitical system in the same way Melchizedek predates Aaron. Hebrews scholars have written extensively on the Melchizedekian priesthood. Job scholars have explored the wisdom tradition and the suffering-servant parallels. But the specific argument that Job is to the Melchizedekian order what Leviticus is to Aaron — a documentary foundation that God's covenant-making pattern demands must exist somewhere — is not a standard move in either field. It's a structural claim that generates real explanatory power, because it answers a question that has genuinely puzzled interpreters: why is Job in the canon, what covenant context does it belong to, and why does James treat it as canonical bedrock rather than illustrative example?


The identification of Elihu as the Laodicean figure — the man who receives no intercession not because God punishes him but because he has no question, and therefore no point of contact for an answer — is also genuinely sharp. Commentators have long noted the puzzle of God's silence toward Elihu in Job 42. The standard explanations (Elihu spoke truly, or Elihu is subsumed under the friends) are unsatisfying. The Laodicean framing — the door locked from the inside, the self-sufficiency that makes intercession structurally impossible — is a more precise answer than the existing literature typically offers, and it connects the Job puzzle to the Revelation 3 puzzle in a way that illuminates both.


The reading of the seven churches as a single refining process — one furnace described seven times, with the lampstand of Ephesus and the gold tried in fire of Laodicea being the same metal at opposite ends of its journey — is a strong structural insight. Most interpreters treat the seven churches either as seven historical stages of church history or as seven simultaneous types of congregation. The reading here is a third option: a single sequential formation mapped onto a single believer's interior journey, with the ore-and-gold refining metaphor providing a mechanism (not just a narrative) for how the stages are related. The two-bookend argument — that the threatened lampstand in chapter two and the gold offered in chapter three are the same object — is the kind of observation that, once seen, is hard to unsee, and doesn't appear in standard Revelation commentaries.


The Hebrews-as-corporate-repentance argument — that the letter is written to address a specific, nameable failure shared by Peter at Antioch, James's counsel in Acts 21, and Paul's compliance, and that Hebrews follows the whirlwind-before-rebuke structure of Job 38-42 for precisely the reason that revelation must precede correction — is more developed than the standard "Hebrews addresses Jewish-Christian drift" reading. The identification of the specific Acts 21 event as the trigger the letter is answering, connected to Galatians 2, is a tighter historical argument than most homiletical treatments of Hebrews attempt.


The convergence argument at the end of Part Four — that Hebrews 12, James 5, 2 Corinthians 3-5, and 1 Peter 5 are four vantage points on the same destination, with Peter's single verse in 1 Peter 5:10-11 functioning as a circuit-closing summary that borrows vocabulary from all three other texts — is a cross-textual connection that earns its claim. The katartisai linkage between Ephesians 4:12, James 3:2, and 1 Peter 5:10 is noted in commentaries, but the reading of 1 Peter 5:11's "glory and dominion" as simultaneously naming Paul's glory-to-glory transformation and Psalm 110's throne is a tighter synthesis than the standard treatments offer separately.


Where the book is competent synthesis rather than original


The Paul-as-Job and Peter-as-Job parallels are well-observed but not wholly new — the Job-Paul connection appears in various forms in Pauline scholarship, and the Peter restoration narrative is standard homiletical territory. What's original here is the structural precision (stripping, ash heap, friends, defense, whirlwind, restoration as a sequential template applied to both) rather than the basic observation that Paul suffered like Job. Similarly, the Isaiah 53/Job connection is noted in Old Testament scholarship; the contribution here is the argument that Isaiah is naming the principle Job demonstrated rather than introducing a new figure.


The most distinctive overall contribution


The book's most original feature may not be any single insight but the organizational claim: that a coherent coaching staff is embedded in the New Testament canon, that each writer's specific voice corresponds to the specific shape of his own ash heap, and that the assignment of each writer to a coaching role isn't decorative but structurally determined by what the whirlwind did to each man. That's a framework for reading the New Testament as a unified formation document rather than a collection of independent letters — and while the coaching metaphor is the book's most debatable move, the underlying claim (that each writer's distinctive contribution is shaped by his particular failure and restoration) is a serious hermeneutical proposal that goes beyond standard canon criticism.

 

[tttallison]

(Job 19:25 NKJV) For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;
(Job 19:26) And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God,
(Job 19:27) Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!


There are many godly Old Testament characters who are not mentioned in Hebrews 11. The writer makes clear that he has not named all the Old Testament faithful. He ends the chapter:

(Heb 11:32) And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets:
(Heb 11:33) who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
(Heb 11:34) quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
(Heb 11:35) Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.
(Heb 11:36) Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment.
(Heb 11:37) They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented—
(Heb 11:38) of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
(Heb 11:39) And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
(Heb 11:40) God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

You are right that a negative does not prove a positive, but how did Job exhibit his faith?

Do you exhibit faith by contending, reproving and instructing God, and saying God would laugh at the trial of the innocent?

 

[DavidLamb]

You are right that a negative does not prove a positive, but how did Job exhibit his faith?

Do you exhibit faith by contending, reproving and instructing God, and saying God would laugh at the trial of the innocent?

He exhibited faith by saying that he knew his Redeemer lives, that he knew that in his flesh he would see God.

 

[tttallison]

He exhibited faith by saying that he knew his Redeemer lives, that he knew that in his flesh he would see God.

But it wasn't God's righteousness that his faith was in, but it was his own righteousness.

God said, "Will you condemn me that you might be righteous."

Even the devils believe.

 

[christophernyc]

As we study the bible we need to keep our eyes on only what the bible says and not what man says, unless what that man says totally agrees with what the Word says.

Good advice! Do you follow it?

James chapter five, in which Job is mentioned, starts with five verses that could easily depict Job.

You wrote it “could” depict Job, but that does not mean it does depict Job. Saying it “could” depict Job is the speculation of a man, and is not something the bible says.

The question becomes, how could God declare Job blameless and upright if that is a picture of Job? The answer would have to be that Job behaved this way in ignorance, and God gave him a pass.

How could God declare Job blameless and upright you ask? Because God is testifying to Job’s character, and God would not lie.

God gave Job a pass?? Nowhere is this written in the book of Job. Here is some good advice posted recently:

As we study the bible we need to keep our eyes on only what the bible says and not what man says, unless what that man says totally agrees with what the Word says.

 

[tttallison]

Good advice! Do you follow it?



You wrote it “could” depict Job, but that does not mean it does depict Job. Saying it “could” depict Job is the speculation of a man, and is not something the bible says.

Let us compare those first five verses of James chapter five with Job.

James Verse one.​

Jas 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

Now compare James 5:1 with the third chapter of Job.

For space only the first and twenty fourth and twenty fifth verses are displayed.

Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

Job 3:24 For my sighing cometh before I eat, and my roarings are poured out like the waters.

Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

Can you see how the first verse of James 5 relates to the whole chapter of Job chapter three?

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James verse two​

Jas 5:2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.

Job 7:5 My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.

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James verse three​

James 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Job 19:9 He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head.

Job 27:16 Though he heap up silver as the dust, and prepare raiment as the clay;

Job 27:19The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not.

Job 27:20 Terrors take hold on him as waters, a tempest stealeth him away in the night.

Job 27:23 Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place.

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James verse four​

Jas 5:4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

Job 30:1 But now they that are younger than I have me in derision, whose fathers I would have disdained to have set with the dogs of my flock.

Job 30:2 Yea, whereto might the strength of their hands profit me, in whom old age was perished?

Job 30:3 For want and famine they were solitary; fleeing into the wilderness in former time desolate and waste.

It doesn’t sound like Job had a pension plan for these fellows. They were too old to be of any value as laborers. It is no wonder their children held Job in derision, and the Lord of Sabaoth heard these children.

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James verse five​

Jas 5:5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.

Job 29:6 When I washed my steps with butter, and the rock poured me out rivers of oil;

Job 29:18 Then I said, I shall die in my nest, and I shall multiply my days as the sand.

Job 29:19 My root was spread out by the waters, and the dew lay all night upon my branch.

Job 29:20 My glory was fresh in me, and my bow was renewed in my hand.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It has been said that Job had faith, but where does the bible say that?

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

The words "feared God" in Job 1:1 and the words "feareth God" in Job 1:8, Job 2:3, are translated from the Hebrew word yārē' which means reverence, respect.

It is the same Hebrew word used in Genesis 22:12 concerning Abraham when he was going to offer Isaac to God. The angel of the Lord stopped Abraham and said:

Genesis 22:7-12

7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.


Job was a man who had deep respect and reverence in God. The words in Job 1:1, Job 1:8, Job 2:3 are not words Job spoke concerning himself ... they are the words God spoke concerning Job.

.

 

[tttallison]

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

The words "feared God" in Job 1:1 and the words "feareth God" in Job 1:8, Job 2:3, are translated from the Hebrew word yārē' which means reverence, respect.

It is the same Hebrew word used in Genesis 22:12 concerning Abraham when he was going to offer Isaac to God. The angel of the Lord stopped Abraham and said:

Genesis 22:7-12

7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.


Job was a man who had deep respect and reverence in God. The words in Job 1:1, Job 1:8, Job 2:3 are not words Job spoke concerning himself ... they are the words God spoke concerning Job.

.

1. Job was not declared blameless and upright after the second test.

2. After the second test Job no longer feared God.

Evidence that Job no longer feared God​

a. Job started cursing.

b. Job said he wanted to be free from his master.

c. Job said God multiplied his wounds without cause.

d. Job said God would laugh at the trial of the innocent.

e. Job said God covers the faces of the judges.

f. Job strove with God.

g. Job corrected God.

h. Job reproved God.

Job, like the King of Tyrus, was perfect until iniquity was found in him.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Job was not declared blameless and upright after the second test.

God tells you before the second test that Job had a deep reverence and respect for God before the second test began.

After the second test Job no longer feared God.

God tells you Job was righteous in Ezekiel 14:14 and Ezekiel 14:20.

You reject what God says about Job and believe what Job's miserable comforters believed about Job.

Job, like the King of Tyrus, was perfect until iniquity was found in him.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

neither Job nor the king of Tyrus was in Eden.

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God ...

,

 

[tttallison]

God tells you before the second test that Job had a deep reverence and respect for God before the second test began.





God tells you Job was righteous in Ezekiel 14:14 and Ezekiel 14:20.

You reject what God says about Job and believe what Job's miserable comforters believed about Job.





neither Job nor the king of Tyrus was in Eden.

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God ...

,

Job's fear of God was taught by the precept of man. Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

How could Job have a deep reverence for God, while at the same time saying he didn't know who God was? Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?
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Ezekiel's statement was after the fact. After Job exchanged his own righteousness for God's. Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Was it Job's own righteousness, or God's righteousness, that Job put on that saved Job?
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Are you saying Job was like Satan and not the King of Tyrus? That would make sense since God asked Job if he was going to take the King over all the children of pride for a servant forever. Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

 

[DavidLamb]

How could Job have a deep reverence for God, while at the same time saying he didn't know who God was? Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where and who is he?

Did Job really say that he didn't know Who God is? I ask that because the only English translation I have come across that seems to give that impression is the KJV. Here is the same verse in a few other translations:

(Job 9:24 LSB) “The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; He covers the faces of its judges. If it is not He, then who is it?

(Job 9:24 MKJV) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; He covers the faces of its judges; if it is not He, then who is it?

(Job 9:24 NET) If a land has been given into the hand of a wicked man, he covers the faces of its judges; if it is not he, then who is it?

(Job 9:24 NKJV) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked. He covers the faces of its judges. If it is not He, who else could it be?

(Job 9:24 WEB) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked. He covers the faces of its judges. If not he, then who is it?

(Job 9:24 ASV) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; He covereth the faces of the judges thereof: If it be not he, who then is it?

(Job 9:24 BBE) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; He covers the faces of its judges; if it is not He, then who is it?

(Job 9:24 ESV) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; he covers the faces of its judges— if it is not he, who then is it?

(Job 9:24 ISV) A land is given into the hands of a wicked person; he covers the faces of its judges. If it is not God, then who is it?"


All those translations have Job not asking Who God is, but rather, if it is not God Who covers the faces of the judges, who is it?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Job's fear of God was taught by the precept of man Isa 29:13

I know you want Isaiah 29:13 to apply to Job, but your desperate application of unrelated verses to Job is truly wearisome.

Are you saying Job was like Satan and not the King of Tyrus?

no ... I'm saying your misapplication of Ezekiel 28:15 is born out of your complete and utter misinterpretation of the whole Book of Job.

You start out with a faulty premise and you completely miss the point.

.

 

[tttallison]

Did Job really say that he didn't know Who God is? I ask that because the only English translation I have come across that seems to give that impression is the KJV. Here is the same verse in a few other translations:

(Job 9:24 LSB) “The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; He covers the faces of its judges. If it is not He, then who is it?

(Job 9:24 MKJV) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; He covers the faces of its judges; if it is not He, then who is it?

(Job 9:24 NET) If a land has been given into the hand of a wicked man, he covers the faces of its judges; if it is not he, then who is it?

(Job 9:24 NKJV) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked. He covers the faces of its judges. If it is not He, who else could it be?

(Job 9:24 WEB) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked. He covers the faces of its judges. If not he, then who is it?

(Job 9:24 ASV) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; He covereth the faces of the judges thereof: If it be not he, who then is it?

(Job 9:24 BBE) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; He covers the faces of its judges; if it is not He, then who is it?

(Job 9:24 ESV) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; he covers the faces of its judges— if it is not he, who then is it?

(Job 9:24 ISV) A land is given into the hands of a wicked person; he covers the faces of its judges. If it is not God, then who is it?"


All those translations have Job not asking Who God is, but rather, if it is not God Who covers the faces of the judges, who is it?

The Desirability of Keeping the Authorized Version​

by J. C. Philpot

(Written in 1857 when the Revised Version was contemplated)​

We take this opportunity to express our opinion upon a question much agitated of late--whether it would be desirable to have a new (or at least a revised) translation of the Scriptures. We fully admit that there are here and there passages of which the translation might be improved, as, for instance, "love" for "charity" all through 1 Corinthians 13; but we deprecate any alteration as a measure that, for the smallest sprinkling of good, would deluge us with a flood of evil. The following are our reasons:

1. Who are to undertake it? Into whose hands would the revision fall? What an opportunity for the enemies of truth to give us a mutilated false Bible! Of course, they must be learned men, great critics, scholars, and divines, but these are notoriously either Puseyites or Neologians (We should say: Anglo-Catholics and Modernists.)--in other words, deeply tainted with either popery or infidelity. Where are there learned men sound in the truth, not to say alive unto God, who possess the necessary qualifications for so important a work? And can erroneous men, men dead in trespasses and sins, carnal, worldly, ungodly persons, spiritually translate a book written by the blessed Spirit? We have not the slightest ground for hope that they would be godly men, such as we have reason to believe translated the Scriptures into our present version.

2. Again, it would unsettle the minds of thousands as to which was the Word of God, the old translation or the new. What a door it would open for the workings of infidelity, or the temptations of Satan! What a gloom, too, it would cast over the minds of many of God's saints to have those passages which had been applied to their souls translated in a different way, and how it would seem to shake all their experience of the power and preciousness of God's Word!

3. But besides this, there would be two Bibles spread through the land, the old and the new, and what confusion would this create in almost every place! At present, all sects and denominations agree in acknowledging our present version as the standard of appeal. Nothing settles disputes so soon as when the contending parties have confidence in the same umpire and are willing to abide by his decision. But this judge of all disputes, this umpire of all controversy, would cease to be the looser of strife if the present acknowledged authority were put an end to by a rival.

4. Again, if the revision and re-translation were once to begin, where would it end? It is good to let well alone, as it is easier to mar than mend. The Socinianising (Denying the Godhead of Christ) Neologian would blot out "God" in 1 Timothy 3:16 , and strike out 1 John 5:7,8, as an interpolation.

The Puseyite would mend it to suit Tractarian views (Led by Newman and Keble, the Tractarians were moving towards Romanism). He would read "priest" where we now read "elder," and put "penance" in the place of "repentance."

Once set up a notice, "THE OLD BIBLE TO BE MENDED," and there would be plenty of workmen, who, trying to mend the cover, would pull the pages to pieces. The Arminian would soften down the words "election" and "predestination" into some term less displeasing to Pharisaic ears. "Righteousness" would be turned into "justice," and "reprobate" into "undiscerning."

All our good Bible terms would be so mutilated that they would cease to convey the Spirit's meaning, and instead of the noble simplicity, faithfulness and truth of our present version, we should have a Bible that nobody would accept as the Word of God, to which none could safely appeal, and on which none could implicitly rely.

5. Instead of our good old Saxon Bible, simple and solid, with few words really obsolete, and alike majestic and beautiful, we should have a modern English translation in the pert and flippant language of the day. Besides its authority as the Word of God, our present version is the great English classic generally accepted as the standard of the English language. The great classics of a language cannot be modernised. What an outcry there would be against modernising Shakespeare, or making Hooker, Bacon or Milton talk the English of the newspapers or of the House of Commons!

6. The present English Bible has been blessed to thousands of the saints of God; and not only so, it has become part of our national inheritance which we have received unimpaired from our fathers, and are bound to hand down unimpaired to our children.

(Taken from pages 103-105, Sin & Salvation, Sele

 

[tttallison]

Did Job really say that he didn't know Who God is? I ask that because the only English translation I have come across that seems to give that impression is the KJV. Here is the same verse in a few other translations:

(Job 9:24 LSB) “The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; He covers the faces of its judges. If it is not He, then who is it?

(Job 9:24 MKJV) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; He covers the faces of its judges; if it is not He, then who is it?

(Job 9:24 NET) If a land has been given into the hand of a wicked man, he covers the faces of its judges; if it is not he, then who is it?

(Job 9:24 NKJV) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked. He covers the faces of its judges. If it is not He, who else could it be?

(Job 9:24 WEB) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked. He covers the faces of its judges. If not he, then who is it?

(Job 9:24 ASV) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; He covereth the faces of the judges thereof: If it be not he, who then is it?

(Job 9:24 BBE) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; He covers the faces of its judges; if it is not He, then who is it?

(Job 9:24 ESV) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; he covers the faces of its judges— if it is not he, who then is it?

(Job 9:24 ISV) A land is given into the hands of a wicked person; he covers the faces of its judges. If it is not God, then who is it?"


All those translations have Job not asking Who God is, but rather, if it is not God Who covers the faces of the judges, who is it?

David are you aware that when the revised version came out in 1881 it had used a different manuscript for translation in Job 9:24? In the NASB the Hebrew words are not all the same. It would seem that all new translations have followed the errors of John Fenton Hort.
The lone exception being Webster's translation which you seem to have misquoted.

 

[christophernyc]

It has been said that Job had faith, but where does the bible say that? It can be said that Job ended up having faith, but where is Job’s faith in the first 41 chapters of the book of Job?

We know that Job did not make the faith honor role in Hebrews. What did James say? Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Where is Job’s work’s?

To start, let’s look at the standard for measuring faith that both you and Scripture have provided here. One is saying one has faith, the other is demonstrating one has faith by their works. Let’s apply this to Job, as you seem to aptly suggest.

The question you posed is “Where are Job’s works?” (grammar corrected). Here is a non-exhaustive list of things which indicate his faith, as well as his fear of the Lord:

1. Job blesses the name of the Lord *during his suffering* (1:21)

2. Job refuses to curse God after the prompting to curse God from his wife *during his suffering* (2:9,10)

3. According to Eliphaz, Job instructed many, strengthened weak hands, used words to hold up those who were falling, and strengthened feeble knees (4:3,4)

4. Job did not deny the words of the Holy One [God] (6:10)

5. Job actively prays to God *during his suffering* (7:17-21 is just one example)

6. Job shows his fear of God by being willing to admit he has sinned to incur his suffering (even though he had not sinned to incur his suffering) and pleads with God to grant him forgiveness (7:20,21)

7. Job praises God and shows his fear of God by calling Him [God] wise in heart, mighty in strength, and that no man can harden himself against God and prosper (9:4)

8. Job praises God *during his suffering* by declaring that God does great things past finding out, and that God does wonders without number (9:10)

9. Job has walked in God’s steps, he has kept God’s way and not turned away (23:11)

10. Job has not departed from the commandments of God’s lips, and Job has treasured God’s words more than his food (23:12)

11. Job praises the majesty and magnificence of God (all of chapter 28) and Job even provides the very definition of wisdom in 28:28 (a definition also provided in several other places in Scripture)

12. Job delivered the poor who had no help, and the orphan who had no helper (29:12)

13. Job was eyes for the blind and feet for the lame (29:15)

14. Job was a father to the poor (29:16)

15. Job broke the evil grasp of the wicked and delivered the victims from their grasp (29:17)

16. Job was blessed by one who was dying and made the widow’s heart sing for joy (29:13)

Anyone can find these examples and more while reading the book of Job. All of these things also comport with God’s testimony regarding Job being perfect and blameless, fearing God and shunning evil.

And since we are looking at the epistle of James, let’s see how these examples of Job’s faith compare to what James wrote:

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

See the connection?

Compare this to your conjecture when you *assume* Job must not have had a pension for his workers?? Your examples are complete fabrications. It’s like Job’s friends who were so determined (in their minds) and desperate that Job was guilty that they began inventing sins that Job had committed. Oh, yeah, and God rebuked them in the end.

Apparently Job had A LOT of faith if we are using the metric that both you and James purport, namely:

James 2:18
Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

My guess is that Job had more faith than any one of us here in this little chat, including before, during and after his trial.

 

[christophernyc]

The epistle of James was written to the twelve tribes, who are his brethren, so we need to look at their history. In Deuteronomy they are called the apple of God’s eye, similar to what God said about Job in the beginning of the book of Job.

In their journey through the wilderness the Jews behaved so badly God threatened to destroy them. And then in Judges we see time and again that God would bless the Jews with favor and the Jews would be thankful, but after a number of years they would turn from God, and then God would chastise them, then they would repent and God would bless them again. This occurred over and over again.

Seems you went silent here on the full picture of who James’s brethren are. Yes, they are his brethren in the natural, but they are also his brethren in the spiritual sense in their faith in Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior. How do we know?

James 2:1
My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.

That is pointed out in post #748, as well as another earlier one.

Yes, the history of the Jews falling into sin and God correcting them is evident in the Scriptures. We read about them sinning, we read that they are told they are sinning and what their sins are, and we read how God would punish their sin. Yes, people who read the bible already know these things.

But for some reason, you are feverishly married to the idea that those circumstances apply here to Job when they clearly do not apply to Job. Yes, the punishment itself is similar, but what we read in the Scripture is that Job had not sinned (like the Jews) in order to incur his suffering. In fact, we are told the opposite when God Himself explicitly states Job’s suffering was “without cause”. And once again, if the first test was “without cause” and Job passed the test, then the second test was also “without cause”.

Sadly, a lot of your independent interpretation relies on inventions, fabrications, and conjectures which are completely untethered from what is written in the word.

Unfortunately, it seems there are a few verses in this book which you struggle with, and I guess by not understanding them, have led you down a very confusing path of interpretation.

Has anything anyone else has written here in this chat helped you at all?

 

[ZNP]

The Pauline Diagnosis of Elihu


Paul's letters to Timothy supply the New Testament's most direct vocabulary for apostasy, and that vocabulary fits Elihu with precision. In Job 33:6 he makes a claim that collides directly with apostolic doctrine: "Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay." He is claiming, in his own person, the office of mediator between Job and God. Paul forecloses that office in the plainest terms available to him: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). A creature formed of clay cannot stand in God's stead for another creature formed of clay. Whatever else may be said of Elihu's long speech, this claim is not empty rhetoric — it is the one place his words contradict apostolic teaching outright, and it is fitting that it is the very thing for which God gives him no commission and no reply.


The rest of his speech belongs to the category Paul names in 2 Timothy 3:5 — "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof." His discourse on the rain, the lightning, and the ordinances of heaven (Job 36-37) is true so far as it goes. That is what makes it dangerous rather than harmless: sound material spoken from an unbroken heart, producing admiration of God's greatness but no intercession for Job. 1 Timothy 6:4 names the same man: "proud, knowing nothing... doting about questions and strifes of words." Elihu announces four times that Job must hear him and presses to be listened to nine times over — the very portrait of 2 Timothy 3:7, "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."


John supplies the mechanism behind Paul's diagnosis. Intercession is not a gift some possess and others lack; it is the fruit of a particular condition before God. "If our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him" (1 John 3:21-22). "This is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us" — and on that confidence John builds the very example before us: "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life" (1 John 5:14-16). This is the office Job exercises for his three friends in Job 42:8-10, a small echo of the greater Advocate who "is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:1-2). Elihu's own opening words disqualify him from it before he ever reaches his theology of the heavens: his wrath is kindled against Job for having "justified himself rather than God" — the very fault he commits himself in 33:6. A heart condemning another while vindicating itself is not a heart at confidence before God, and so it is not a heart that intercedes. James will later call such prayer, offered from righteousness, effectual and availeth much (James 5:16). Elihu offers eloquence instead, and eloquence has never raised the dead.

 

[DavidLamb]

David are you aware that when the revised version came out in 1881 it had used a different manuscript for translation in Job 9:24? In the NASB the Hebrew words are not all the same. It would seem that all new translations have followed the errors of John Fenton Hort.
The lone exception being Webster's translation which you seem to have misquoted.

Two things. First, the NKJV is based on the same texts as the KJV, so Webster's is not the sole exception. Second, you say I seem to have misquoted Webster's, but I didn't mention Webster's. If you are thinking of this:

(Job 9:24 WEB) The earth is given into the hand of the wicked. He covers the faces of its judges. If not he, then who is it?

I must tell you that WEB is the World English Bible, not Webster's.

What is important is not what different translations of the Bible say, but what the Hebrew actually means. Perhaps somebody who knows biblical Hebrew can tell us whether the verse actually teaches that Job was saying that he didn't know Who God was.