The book of Job

[tttallison]

You have asked exactly the right question, and it deserves a direct answer. Was Job depending on his own righteousness or God's through the first 41 chapters? His own. Absolutely. We agree on that completely.


But here is where I think your argument stops short of where the text is taking us.


The man born blind in John chapter nine said something that unlocks the entire book of Job: "Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth." (John 9:31)


That verse is the spine of the book of Job. God does not hear sinners. Therefore every prayer Job offered, every protestation of innocence, every demand for an audience with God through the first 41 chapters — none of it had Melchizedekian weight. Job was praying, but God was not receiving it in the intercessory sense. And then Job 42:8 happens. God turns to Eliphaz and says "my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept." That word accept is doing enormous theological work. It marks the precise moment a sinner becomes a priest. The moment God begins to hear Job is the moment the book has been building toward from page one.


So yes — Job sinned and fell short of the glory of God. But that is not the indictment of Job you are presenting it as. It is the universal human condition that makes the book of Job necessary in the first place.


Consider the company Job keeps in this regard.


Saul of Tarsus was not interceding for others before Damascus — he was dragging them off to prison and holding the coats of those who stoned them. Was that faith? Was that righteousness? By your standard, no. And yet Paul became the man who said "I could wish myself accursed from Christ for my brethren" (Romans 9:3) — the very definition of Melchizedekian intercession.


Peter did not begin as a priest after the order of Melchizedek. He began as a man who looked Jesus in the face and told Him He didn't need to pay the redemptive price for others. Jesus called that satanic (Matthew 16:23). And yet Peter became the man whose shadow healed the sick in the streets of Jerusalem.


James and Jude did not begin as pillars of the church. During the ministry of Jesus they were among those who said He was out of His mind (Mark 3:21, John 7:5). And yet James became the presiding elder of Jerusalem and Jude became a contender for the faith once delivered to the saints.


None of them started as Melchizedekian priests. Every one of them became one.


That word — become — is the word that unlocks Job. The book of Job is not a portrait of a finished priest. It is the constitution of how a priest is made. The suffering, the stripping away of self-righteousness, the whirlwind, the silence before God — these are not the story of a man who failed. They are the curriculum of a man being qualified.


Job 42:5 is the graduation: "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."


And Job 42:8 is the ordination: "him will I accept."


You ask whether Job was clothed in his own righteousness or God's. Through chapter 41, his own — and it was insufficient, which is precisely why God had to strip it away. By chapter 42, God's — which is why God could finally hear him, and why three men's eternal souls were placed in his hands.


The form of godliness was there from chapter one. Job offered sacrifices for his children. He was blameless and upright in his own conduct. But Paul warned Timothy about having the form of godliness while denying the power (2 Timothy 3:5). The power of godliness is the intercessory standing before God that only comes through Christ's righteousness. Job had to lose everything — including his own righteousness — before he could receive it.


That is not a flaw in the typology. That is the typology working exactly as God designed it.


The book of Job is showing us how a man becomes a priest after the order of Melchizedek. They do not start out as one. Neither did Saul. Neither did Peter. Neither did James or Jude. And neither did Job.

I had missed this post. You are saying Job was not saved until the end of the book?

 

[ZNP]

I had missed this post. You are saying Job was not saved until the end of the book?

No. I am not going to use New Testament terminology to describe Job, it adds to all the confusion.

I am saying what Hebrews says.
6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

At the start of the book Job does not have the power of intercessory prayer. That is what the whole 42 chapters that he goes through is doing, it is forcing him to leave the foundational principles and go onto perfection (the picture here is the foundation has been laid, Jesus did that, your job is to build on that foundation. Religion is trying to lay the foundation, that is its failure, they must see that your righteousness will never be sufficient, you must take Jesus Christ as your righteousness, and once you do then you can go on to interceding for others to be saved. This is what Jesus meant by the parable of the good Samaritan, he paid the price for him to be saved, that is what intercession means, and then he told the man listening to "go and do likewise".

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You are defying logic.

nope ... just telling you what God said about Job ... that Job was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil ... God tells you three times ... how many times does God have to tell you before you will believe Him?

You can't answer whether Job was relying on his own righteousness to save him, or God's righteousness, an yet you claim he was saved. How can this be?

Job was a believer before satan attacked him (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:3) ... that was what God said about Job ... not what job said about himself.

Are you saying it doesn't matter whether or not it was Job's righteousness, or God's righteousness that Job was depending on?

I'm saying that it is not up to you ... not up to me ... to determine what is in a person's heart. you want to believe Job was a self righteous unbelieving sinner? have at it, I'm not joining you in your folly.

.

 

[DavidLamb]

You said she made a statement and that is not true. She asked a question.

Yes, but the question she asked stated that Job was indeed retaining his integrity. The question would not make any sense at all if he wasn't maintaining his integrity. Likewise, it would be nonsense to ask somebody, "Why do you post on ChristianChat?" if that person had never posted a single message on ChristianChat.

 

[tttallison]

No. I am not going to use New Testament terminology to describe Job, it adds to all the confusion.

I am saying what Hebrews says.
6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

At the start of the book Job does not have the power of intercessory prayer. That is what the whole 42 chapters that he goes through is doing, it is forcing him to leave the foundational principles and go onto perfection (the picture here is the foundation has been laid, Jesus did that, your job is to build on that foundation. Religion is trying to lay the foundation, that is its failure, they must see that your righteousness will never be sufficient, you must take Jesus Christ as your righteousness, and once you do then you can go on to interceding for others to be saved. This is what Jesus meant by the parable of the good Samaritan, he paid the price for him to be saved, that is what intercession means, and then he told the man listening to "go and do likewise".

If Jethro was a Melchizedekian priest, how is it Jethro didn't know YAHWAH was above all other god's until Moses explained it to him?

 

[tttallison]

Yes, but the question she asked stated that Job was indeed retaining his integrity. The question would not make any sense at all if he wasn't maintaining his integrity. Likewise, it would be nonsense to ask somebody, "Why do you post on ChristianChat?" if that person had never posted a single message on ChristianChat.

Right, Job was retaining his integrity? Did he do that by cursing?

 

[DavidLamb]

Right, Job was retaining his integrity? Did he do that by cursing?

That's a separate matter. I was answering what you said about Job's wife asking a question rather than making a statement. Here's the verse with her question:

(Job 2:9) Then his wife said to him, "Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!"

If Job didn't have integrity, her question wouldn't make any sense.

As for cursing, which verse/passage are you thinking of that says that Job cursed? Here are all the verses in Job with the word "curse" in them:

Job_1:11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" (Satan's words)
Job_2:5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" (Satan's words)
Job_2:9 Then his wife said to him, "Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!" (Wife's words)
Job_3:8 May those curse it who curse the day, Those who are ready to arouse Leviathan. (Job's words, but Job is not cursing)
Job_31:30 (Indeed I have not allowed my mouth to sin By asking for a curse on his soul); (Job's words, but he is not cursing)

We do have the word "cursed" in this verse:

(Job 3:1) After this Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth.

However, whatever Job meant by those words, we nowhere see God reprimanding him for saying them.

 

[ZNP]

If Jethro was a Melchizedekian priest, how is it Jethro didn't know YAHWAH was above all other god's until Moses explained it to him?

That is not what he said, what he said was that the events that took place confirmed to him that YAHWAH was above all other Gods. It is the experience of death and resurrection. God declared Jesus to be the son of God after he went through the crucifixion. God told Abraham after he offered Isaac "For now I know that thou fearest God", it is the same thing James said "faith without works is dead".

 

[tttallison]

That's a separate matter. I was answering what you said about Job's wife asking a question rather than making a statement. Here's the verse with her question:

(Job 2:9) Then his wife said to him, "Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!"

If Job didn't have integrity, her question wouldn't make any sense.

As for cursing, which verse/passage are you thinking of that says that Job cursed? Here are all the verses in Job with the word "curse" in them:

Job_1:11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" (Satan's words)
Job_2:5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" (Satan's words)
Job_2:9 Then his wife said to him, "Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!" (Wife's words)
Job_3:8 May those curse it who curse the day, Those who are ready to arouse Leviathan. (Job's words, but Job is not cursing)
Job_31:30 (Indeed I have not allowed my mouth to sin By asking for a curse on his soul); (Job's words, but he is not cursing)

We do have the word "cursed" in this verse:

(Job 3:1) After this Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth.

However, whatever Job meant by those words, we nowhere see God reprimanding him for saying them.

I am sorry but you just don't reprove God and remain righteous.

 

[DavidLamb]

I am sorry but you just don't reprove God and remain righteous.

Where does Job reprove God? God calls Job "upright":

(Job 2:3) The LORD asked Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on earth. The man is blameless as well as upright. He fears God and keeps away from evil. He remains firm in his integrity, even though you have been urging me to overwhelm him without cause."

 

[tttallison]

Where does Job reprove God? God calls Job "upright":

(Job 2:3) The LORD asked Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on earth. The man is blameless as well as upright. He fears God and keeps away from evil. He remains firm in his integrity, even though you have been urging me to overwhelm him without cause."

Was God confused when he said to Job, Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

 

[ZNP]

Was God confused when he said to Job, Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

This is the problem with the Levitical mindset. If you are suffering it is because of sin. As you have done it will be done unto you. So when someone who has not done anything that would deserve the wages of sin suffers they complain. Why is this happening to me.

But wait a second, Jesus was without sin and He suffered. He was convicted of a crime worthy of death, he was mocked, scourged, and crucified and He hadn't done anything worthy of that punishment. So there is a second reason why one would suffer the wages of sin and that is if you are paying the price for someone else to be redeemed. Jesus did not owe that debt, we did, and He paid it for us.

Now we are given the ministry of reconciliation and that is what it means to reconcile a sinner, you have to pay their debt to make things right. The book of Job begins when Job wants to intercede on behalf of his children that God would forgive them of their sins. OK, if that is what you want you must pay the price for those sins for them.

 

[tttallison]

This is the problem with the Levitical mindset. If you are suffering it is because of sin. As you have done it will be done unto you. So when someone who has not done anything that would deserve the wages of sin suffers they complain. Why is this happening to me.

But wait a second, Jesus was without sin and He suffered. He was convicted of a crime worthy of death, he was mocked, scourged, and crucified and He hadn't done anything worthy of that punishment. So there is a second reason why one would suffer the wages of sin and that is if you are paying the price for someone else to be redeemed. Jesus did not owe that debt, we did, and He paid it for us.

Now we are given the ministry of reconciliation and that is what it means to reconcile a sinner, you have to pay their debt to make things right. The book of Job begins when Job wants to intercede on behalf of his children that God would forgive them of their sins. OK, if that is what you want you must pay the price for those sins for them.

That is a pretty tall assumption. You are assuming Job's children are not in the fiery pit. Don't you reap what you sow? You plant an apple seed and expect a mustard tree to grow?

 

[ZNP]

That is a pretty tall assumption. You are assuming Job's children are not in the fiery pit. Don't you reap what you sow? You plant an apple seed and expect a mustard tree to grow?

It is a model for the Melchisedek priesthood that Jesus Christ is our High priest and we all are priests according to this intercessory function. The Levitical priesthood has a provision for each person to pay for their sins with the blood of a sacrificial animal, but it doesn't wash away your sins, it merely allows you to atone for them for a year. Jesus came forward and offered Himself as the offering to pay for the sins and redeem us from sin. He wasn't paying for His sins, He was paying for ours. That is not a levitical offering it is an offering similar to God in Genesis 3, similar to Noah building an ark for the salvation of his family, similar to Jethro leading the Israelites through the wilderness, similar to the church age in which every apostle was taking part of this same ministry of reconciliation. This is what James said when rescuing someone from sins covers a multitude of sins. God did not listen to Job's intercession until he saw this one point, it wasn't his righteousness that gave him a stand to intercede for others, it was Jesus' blood that paid that price which gave him a stand. Once He had a revelation of God then God would hear His intercession and he interceded for the three friends.

 

[christophernyc]

What evidence do you present that Eliphaz is lying?

Job 22:5
Is not thy wickedness great? and thine iniquities infinite?

Job 22:6
For thou hast taken a pledge from thy brother for nought, and stripped the naked of their clothing.

Job 22:7
Thou hast not given water to the weary to drink, and thou hast withholden bread from the hungry.

These are all lies. Eliphaz is lying. He is fabricating sins for Job. Job did not do any of these things, nor are these false accusations confirmed anywhere.

We know Job why Job is suffering based on what is written in the words in chapters 1 & 2.

Job himself also says his friends are lying.

Job 13:4-7
But ye are forgers of lies, ye are all physicians of no value.
O that ye would altogether hold your peace! and it should be your wisdom.
Hear now my reasoning, and hearken to the pleadings of my lips.
Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?

Job, his wife, and God all know Job had not sinned to incur his suffering as evidenced in their words.

 

[christophernyc]

You avoided answering the question. Yes, Job had faith that God would save him. Job knew he didn't have the power to save himself. But here is the problem, Job thought he deserved to be saved because he was a good person. We know, or at least I hope you know that no one is ever saved because they are a good person. Job needed to be clothed in God's righteousness, who we know to be Jesus Christ.

Where does Job say he “deserves” to be saved because he was a good person? Show us.

Again, Job declaring his good works were a rebuttal to his friends’ false accusations claiming Job had done the opposite. (Previous post pointed out examples of the lies of Eliphaz in this regard.)

God said, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

To which Job effectively answers “no”. (This has been explained before.)

The spirit said,Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Elihu said, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?
The three friends said, Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Eliphaz assumes Job has sinned to incur his suffering, but this is not what the text tells us. So, more than likely Eliphaz is making up this story in order to manipulate Job and force a confession from him.

Elihu is lying. Job never says his righteousness is more than God’s. Again, chapter 9 reveals Job declaring the opposite. We know this from reading the written word. (This also has been explained before.)

Nothing the 3 friends accused Job of were true, so Job was right. He stood up to their lies and false claims against him.

In answer to your question, yes.

Lest we miss the *context* to you answering “yes” to my question, here is the question again which was posed to you:

So according to your own independent interpretation, Job is persevering in his pride the whole time he is suffering?

The discussion for the post was in regards to James commending Job for persevering. So your answer is “yes” Job is persevering and being steadfast and patient “in his pride”.

Really? You believe that??

So instead of the word “steadfastness” wouldn't the proper word for your independent interpretation be “stubbornness”?

And please tell us, why in the world would James commend Job for being steadfast in his pride? It makes no sense.

Please explain how you defend that belief.

 

[tttallison]

Job 22:5
Is not thy wickedness great? and thine iniquities infinite?

Job 22:6
For thou hast taken a pledge from thy brother for nought, and stripped the naked of their clothing.

Job 22:7
Thou hast not given water to the weary to drink, and thou hast withholden bread from the hungry.

These are all lies. Eliphaz is lying. He is fabricating sins for Job. Job did not do any of these things, nor are these false accusations confirmed anywhere.

We know Job why Job is suffering based on what is written in the words in chapters 1 & 2.

Job himself also says his friends are lying.

Job 13:4-7
But ye are forgers of lies, ye are all physicians of no value.
O that ye would altogether hold your peace! and it should be your wisdom.
Hear now my reasoning, and hearken to the pleadings of my lips.
Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?

Job, his wife, and God all know Job had not sinned to incur his suffering as evidenced in their words.

Just as I thought you have no evidence just as you have no motive. Job had a zeal for God, but Job had no knowledge. Just as Paul thought he was doing God's work in destroying Christians, so did Job think he was doing God's work when he made judgments about people that was wrong. Job seemed to have a disdain for the poor.

Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

Job 29:17 And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth.

Job 30:8 They were children of fools, yea, children of base men: they were viler than the earth.

Paul thought Christians were viler than the earth.

 

[tttallison]

Where does Job say he “deserves” to be saved because he was a good person? Show us.

Again, Job declaring his good works were a rebuttal to his friends’ false accusations claiming Job had done the opposite. (Previous post pointed out examples of the lies of Eliphaz in this regard.)



To which Job effectively answers “no”. (This has been explained before.)



Eliphaz assumes Job has sinned to incur his suffering, but this is not what the text tells us. So, more than likely Eliphaz is making up this story in order to manipulate Job and force a confession from him.

Elihu is lying. Job never says his righteousness is more than God’s. Again, chapter 9 reveals Job declaring the opposite. We know this from reading the written word. (This also has been explained before.)

Nothing the 3 friends accused Job of were true, so Job was right. He stood up to their lies and false claims against him.



Lest we miss the *context* to you answering “yes” to my question, here is the question again which was posed to you:

So according to your own independent interpretation, Job is persevering in his pride the whole time he is suffering?

The discussion for the post was in regards to James commending Job for persevering. So your answer is “yes” Job is persevering and being steadfast and patient “in his pride”.

Really? You believe that??

So instead of the word “steadfastness” wouldn't the proper word for your independent interpretation be “stubbornness”?

And please tell us, why in the world would James commend Job for being steadfast in his pride? It makes no sense.

Please explain how you defend that belief.

Why are you afraid to answer this question? Was Job's faith in God's righteousness to save him, or was Job depending on Job's righteousness to save him? You have refused to answer this question, God's righteousness, or Job's righteousness? It is a very simple question to answer. The answer is just one word. God's or Job's?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Why are you afraid to answer this question?

your question has been answered multiple times by multiple posters.

why do you continue to ask the same question over and over? are you just waiting for someone to affirm your errant reading of Job?

Was Job's faith in God's righteousness to save him, or was Job depending on Job's righteousness to save him?

no one's interested in in engaging in your straw man distortion of the book of Job.

.

 

[tttallison]

your question has been answered multiple times by multiple posters.

why do you continue to ask the same question over and over? are you just waiting for someone to affirm your errant reading of Job?





no one's interested in in engaging in your straw man distortion of the book of Job.

.

No one has answered it. A simple God's or Job's righteousness. You know you can't answer it because it will destroy your narrative.