If I have free will to enter salvation, why is it that I don't have free will to depart from salvation?
OSAS, When does salvation take place?
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Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I will never forget reading Matthew 7:22-23 and being overwhelmed with despair and thinking good grief! These many people accomplished all of that but that still was not "good enough!" Then I thought to myself, "how am I going to top that and be good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is based on works. This is a clear warning to the danger of self-deception.That said, a number of things didn't add up for me the first time I read Matthew 7:22-23. First off, why did the Lord call the three deeds that the folks in Matthew 7:22 were claiming to have done (1. prophesying in Jesus' Name, 2. casting out demons in Jesus' Name, and 3. performing many wonders in Jesus' Name) "lawless deeds"They don't sound like lawless deeds to me, and I'll wager that they don't to you either, so why do you think that He calls them, "lawless"
We need to keep in mind that in context, Jesus is warning about false prophets. Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. Jesus never knew these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 which means they were never saved. They lacked a saving relationship with Jesus. (John 17:3) So much for prophesying, casting out demons and performing many wonders/wonderful works in Jesus' name.
*Outward religious displays performed from an unregenerate heart do not result in salvation and apart from saving faith in Christ, your sins remain, and all you have left is filthy rags of righteousness, hence those who practice lawlessness.
You do. However, if you are born again, then you have a new set of desires that govern you. The will follows desire, which is the basis for all advertising. I spent 30 years in sales and I understand the psychology. Some do temporarily backslide. Been there myself, to my shame. But God always brought me back.
To lose salvation you would have to die after being born again. Tell me, how can what is born of God die? God is not going to terminate the born again spirit. The life of Christ within us is indestructible. We have eternal life.
To lose salvation you would have to die after being born again. Tell me, how can what is born of God die? God is not going to terminate the born again spirit. The life of Christ within us is indestructible. We have eternal life.
You don't seem to be able to reconcile the men of mat 7 that Jesus casts into Hell. Men who believed in Jesus, who proclaimed with their mouths that Jesus was Lord, Men who where able to do miracles that those of us who believe in Jesus can not do. These men showed their faith when they called out to Jesus by Saying "Lord Lord."
In ancient Hebrew, repeating a word—a literary device called an epizeuxis—is a powerful way to add intensity, emphasis, and supreme degree. While English uses forms like “holiest” or suffixes like “-est” to show the highest degree of a quality, Hebrew frequently uses repetition to achieve the same superlative effect
Why is “Holy, Holy, Holy” repeated three times?
Isaiah had gotten off to a pretty good start in ministry. He had a good reputation and was making quite a name for himself. He was one of Israel’s premier preachers. But one day Isaiah had an encou…
www.joshhunt.com
So to Say Lord, Lord was a direct reflection of these men Faith/Belief and confidence in Jesus as Lord.
So when was this pronouncement of judgement that these men where not doing the will of the Father made? According to Jesus this pronouncement was man "ON THAT DAY." What day was that? Let's go back and look:
21Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
So what day Will We have the opportunity to not only see Jesus but to call out to Him? What day will He decide and proclaim that we are either welcome into the Kingdom of Heaven or be openly condemned by Jesus and sent to Hell?
Again, this pronouncement is made despite the fact that these men believed in Jesus/That Jesus was their "Lord, Lord."
AGAIN, I am saying Our salvation Happens when we are judged by Christ. The thief on the cross was Judged By Christ On The CROSS! He did not have to wait till judgement like everyone else does.
Your point is irrelevant because I am stating that salvation is determined by Jesus. This determination can be made on the day of Judgement, or it can be made in person as with the thief on the cross. This determination by Jesus does not change the defination of paradise in any way.
Again irrelevant for the state reasons above.
This comment does not address anything that is being discussed here. I recommend that you go back and read the OP, as you seem to be disconnected from the discussion.
Aussie52 said:
If I have free will to enter salvation, why is it that I don't have free will to depart from salvation?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Yes it does. You are no spring chicken in this debate.
You were bought with a price(HIS price) and you are not your own. You could try sinning all you want to lose your eternal life......You are NEVER going to perish.
A loser believer will be a student in the eternal state, while doctrinal believers will be your lords and kings....... teaching you Bible doctrine in the eternal state.
An impartial study of the Book of Hebrews would show that OSAS is not Scriptural.
Don't kid yourself I just about did it myself
However more to the point as per revelation there will be apostate this is a fact and an apostate was a saved person not somebody who pretended a real saved individual who left the faith and walked away from the grace.
You spent a lot of time only to show that you're not paying attention to what I was saying I'm not referring to people who are not saved in the first place I'm referring to people who are actually savedYou don't seem to be able to reconcile the men of mat 7 that Jesus casts into Hell. Men who believed in Jesus, who proclaimed with their mouths that Jesus was Lord, Men who where able to do miracles that those of us who believe in Jesus can not do. These men showed their faith when they called out to Jesus by Saying "Lord Lord."
In ancient Hebrew, repeating a word—a literary device called an epizeuxis—is a powerful way to add intensity, emphasis, and supreme degree. While English uses forms like “holiest” or suffixes like “-est” to show the highest degree of a quality, Hebrew frequently uses repetition to achieve the same superlative effect
Why is “Holy, Holy, Holy” repeated three times?
Isaiah had gotten off to a pretty good start in ministry. He had a good reputation and was making quite a name for himself. He was one of Israel’s premier preachers. But one day Isaiah had an encou…
So to Say Lord, Lord was a direct reflection of these men Faith/Belief and confidence in Jesus as Lord.
The devil knows who Jesus is and he's not saved all of your references as well as anybody else I've ever heard on the subject comes from a situation where the individual or individuals in question or not saved in the first place my reference is to the apostate who was saved
while not generally a good idea to appeal purely on a philosophical basis I want you to think a man who knew Jesus, was saying, lived a Christian Life with its ups and downs and then for some reason decided to screw it I'm working for the devil and living it up and they no longer want to participate or be in heaven or see Jesus. He becomes reprobate living and complete sin
Jesus isn't going to let this person into heaven or Jesus becomes a pushover.
Or was simply a mechanism the guy use to try to convince Jesus that he knew him but as per my previous post there's no need to go to this link to understand what I'm saying and that is simple a safe person can trash and salvation and there is nothing biblically to say that that can't happen and in fact there are examples through the apostates that it does happenYou don't seem to be able to reconcile the men of mat 7 that Jesus casts into Hell. Men who believed in Jesus, who proclaimed with their mouths that Jesus was Lord, Men who where able to do miracles that those of us who believe in Jesus can not do. These men showed their faith when they called out to Jesus by Saying "Lord Lord."
In ancient Hebrew, repeating a word—a literary device called an epizeuxis—is a powerful way to add intensity, emphasis, and supreme degree. While English uses forms like “holiest” or suffixes like “-est” to show the highest degree of a quality, Hebrew frequently uses repetition to achieve the same superlative effect
Why is “Holy, Holy, Holy” repeated three times?
Isaiah had gotten off to a pretty good start in ministry. He had a good reputation and was making quite a name for himself. He was one of Israel’s premier preachers. But one day Isaiah had an encou…
So to Say Lord, Lord was a direct reflection of these men Faith/Belief and confidence in Jesus as Lord.
If you could 'walk away' and lose salvation, that is meaning the indwelling of the Holy Spirit belongs to you and not God.
Once saved, salvation belongs to Jesus, not to the believer. It isn't merited or earned, so our acts after salvation don't affect the eternal state of salvation given. They determine our rewards in heaven, but not our eternal destiny.
If I swallow an apple, I can't then leave the apple. If I get saved, it's up to God whether He removes His indwelling, not me. And God says He won't do that.
Once saved, salvation belongs to Jesus, not to the believer. It isn't merited or earned, so our acts after salvation don't affect the eternal state of salvation given. They determine our rewards in heaven, but not our eternal destiny.
If I swallow an apple, I can't then leave the apple. If I get saved, it's up to God whether He removes His indwelling, not me. And God says He won't do that.
No it doesn't.
Granted it is not of us. but your conclusion isn't provable. Moreover if that was true then you just made a case for the Bible to be in error.
An apostate is a real thing. This is my argument..
apostate = beliver/saved/etc who then walks away from it to serve satan.. God gave us the statement and power : choose this day whom you will serve...
Yeah you can ypu can puke it up forcibly
There are two place in The bible where it's clear you can be blotted out... .. why us this so hard for you to grasp... why would a person who was saved, a then turned to the devil and rejected the gift end up in. Heaven, is jesus a pushover?
David prayed for God to 'take not your Holy Spirit from me'. Ps 51:11. Why would he pray that if it could never happen?
Jesus pays for that person's sin. It is forgiven. He will, through the Holy Spirit, discipline a believer when the fail. But like a real dad in a biological family, won't leave the child. If the child disown the dad, that doesn't mean the are actually disowned. Only that the think they are.