Calvinism is Gospel !

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Calmador said:

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Ephesians 1:13​

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13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,


Key word is AFTER... you heard the word of truth, trusted, and believed.

...You were sealed.

Step 1: Heard, trusted, believed

Step 2: Sealed by Holy spirit

That's one of the ends of Calvinism

Here's another verse

John 1:12

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [a]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Keyword is become. These non-children of God were given the right to become children of God... to as many as RECEIVED and BELIEVE on his name. This is obvious to me , but if Calvinism were true, then it should read in reverse. It's based off as many RECEIVED and BELIEVED, not based off as many have been regenerated.

These have been given the right to become children of God. And of course man has no power or ability to become children of God. So, the next verse reads "who were born out of the will of God, not of man's will"

Read these carefully, and think outside a little of your Calvinist box and you'll see it.

Issue is Calvinists are indoctrinated heavily and have invested so much... I think it's hard for them to see
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Do not confuse the process with the result. Salvation is not just a different way of thinking or believing. It is not just a vertical relationship mankind - God. It is also a new mission and a new axis. Christianity (as was Judaism) was all about both a vertical relationship with God thru Christ but just as importantly there is a horizontal axis. If you hate your neighbor then you hate God. If you love God you will love your neighbor as yourself. Paul is clear, love trumps faith. Love can only be transacted on the horizontal - earthly - axis. Jesus says if you love me you will keep my commandments and God will love you too. Jesus commandments have to do with your life, your heart and your mission. So we cannot stop our definition of salvation at square 1 - real faith. There is way more required of us than our Christian birth just as we expect and require more of our newborns.
 
brightfame52 said:
Thats you.
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I help you then... and it seems you don't wanna listen to Dr. Flowers. I'll let you know his comments.

John 10 is a transitional time. There are two kinds of believers. Those who genuinely believe in the Old Testament. And those who are introduced into the New Testament. The term sheep is refering to these two types of believers. Both are referred to as sheep. These sheep recognize the shepherd's voice because those who believe in the Old Testament should have a relationship with God and genuinely are connected and when they hear the New Testament, they will hear His voice. This is context.

Reading this... John 10 seems more fleshed out and zero Calvinism is needed.

Also, even before I understood what Dr. Flowers was saying... it was clear that nothing about regeneration first, then faith in Christ happened second. It looks like your reading into it
 
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Inquisitor said:
You hear the gospel and believe.

When you believe the gospel then you receive the Holy Spirit.

After you receive the Holy Spirit then you can live the Christian life.

We boast in Jesus daily, we worship Jesus, we rejoice in Jesus.

We pray without ceasing.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
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You have not yet touched the hem of the garment of the Gospel. The segmentation, the steps, the processes of becoming a Christian is the beginning not the end. We are born again to a mission, to a purpose, to life change, to spiritual maturity in love and service. Perhaps expanding on what you consider living the christian life would be helpful.
 
Calmador said:

​

​

Ephesians 1:13​

​

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,


Key word is AFTER... you heard the word of truth, trusted, and believed.

...You were sealed.

Step 1: Heard, trusted, believed

Step 2: Sealed by Holy spirit

That's one of the ends of Calvinism

Here's another verse

John 1:12

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [a]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Keyword is become. These non-children of God were given the right to become children of God... to as many as RECEIVED and BELIEVE on his name. This is obvious to me , but if Calvinism were true, then it should read in reverse. It's based off as many RECEIVED and BELIEVED, not based off as many have been regenerated.

These have been given the right to become children of God. And of course man has no power or ability to become children of God. So, the next verse reads "who were born out of the will of God, not of man's will"

Read these carefully, and think outside a little of your Calvinist box and you'll see it.

Issue is Calvinists are indoctrinated heavily and have invested so much... I think it's hard for them to see

To be frank, that's how it always reads, but these verse are the clearest to me.
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You are conflating the baptism WITH the Spirit and the baptism OF the Spirit. The first is what Ephesians 1:13 is concerned with. It is the promise of the Father that John the Baptist referred to in Matthew 3:11, and Jesus in Acts 1:4-5 referred to. The promise of the Father was a baptism WITH the Spirit that imparted power and sealed individuals. The manifestations that accompanied it were all outward and known to all.
The baptism of the Spirit is an inward work of the Spirit that places an individual into the body of Christ. This is what 1 Corinthians 12:13 teaches.

Do you believe the 11 Apostles were saved on the day of Pentecost?
 
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CS1 said:
I am sorry. Many Calvinist said to me, Jesus saves only those he wants.

To think otherwise would mean the Blood would have been wasted on those who would not be saved to begin with.

I was told that the blood of Jesus can't be wasted or ineffective NOT to save those he has called and chosen. Therefore They were predestinated for salvation even if they were not seeking to be saved to begin with. I hope that is clearer.
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Oh, I thought you were telling us about a specific person, someone who fell away after receiving the gospel message because
they did not believe they were chosen. So it just looked like an excuse someone was using to apostatize. My apologies.

Jesus does save those He wants. He reveals Himself to whom He chooses. This is how people come to
know Him personally. His Word will accomplish what He wants, what He pleases. It does not return void.

Those given to Jesus do come to Him. The text does not say maybe or perhaps they will.
His sheep hear and follow Him. They were sheep before He went looking for them.

These things are explicitly articulated in Scripture. Not everyone hears. Some say
everyone does. FWers say everyone does when Jesus told us everyone does not.

God says He will make those who are not His people, His people. The Bible also says He circumcises our hearts
so we may love Him, and live, this comes from obedience, we will obey be cause He causes us to. Obedience
does not come from someone with a God hating heart, which is the estate of the natural man. I mentioned
this to a relative newcomer a few day ago and they scoffed at the idea; people react emotionally to what the
Bible says because they don't like it. Of course when anyone says these things and get that kind of reaction,
other free willers agree because they don't like what the Bible says, either. They contradict and deny many verses.
 
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brightfame52 said:
False, Jesus Christ saves His People from their sins Matt 1:21 and Faith believes that fact.
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That is so dumb to think, sir.
How can you?

I said:

....For belief in Jesus Christ saves us from Hell.

Did Jesus contradict that?

John 11:25​
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Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.
He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.​

You suffer from... Compulsive argumentation.
It seems to be pathological.


Compulsive argumentation—or excessive rationalization—is a deeply ingrained habit or mental compulsion where a person feels compelled to debate, dispute, or disprove thoughts to relieve anxiety or establish control. Instead of resolving distress, it traps the brain in an endless cycle of looping thoughts, overanalysis, and frustration. Google AI

.........
 
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Cameron143 said:
Do you believe the 11 Apostles were saved on the day of Pentecost?
Click to expand...


They were already saved like any other OT saint had been in the past when they had believed in the Lord.
But, Pentecost entered them into the new realm of breaking through into becoming a New Creation in Christ!

The Greek that is translated "new creation" means something new that had never existed before.

The apostles had been saved. But only as OT believers prior to Pentecost.
At Pentecost they then became a new creation in Christ.

OT believers were saved. As evidenced when Moses and Elijah appeared next to Jesus at his transfiguration.
At that time of the transfiguration the Church age had not yet begun. Moses and Elijah were most definitely saved!
 
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Genez said:
They were already saved like any other OT saint had been in the past when they had believed in the Lord.
But, Pentecost entered them into the new realm of breaking through into becoming a New Creation in Christ!

The Greek that is translated "new creation" means something new that had never existed before.

The apostles had been saved. But only as OT believers prior to Pentecost.
At Pentecost they then became a new creation in Christ.

OT believers were saved. As evidenced when Moses and Elijah appeared next to Jesus at his transfiguration.
At that time of the transfiguration the Church age had not yet begun. Moses and Elijah were most definitely saved!
Click to expand...
Tell me about you know of Moses before 780 BC?
 
Genez said:
They were already saved like any other OT saint had been in the past when they had believed in the Lord.
But, Pentecost entered them into the new realm of breaking through into becoming a New Creation in Christ!

The Greek that is translated "new creation" means something new that had never existed before.

The apostles had been saved. But only as OT believers prior to Pentecost.
At Pentecost they then became a new creation in Christ.

OT believers were saved. As evidenced when Moses and Elijah appeared next to Jesus at his transfiguration.
At that time of the transfiguration the Church age had not yet begun. Moses and Elijah were most definitely saved!
Click to expand...
Did they belong to Christ?

We're they in the Spirit and not the flesh?
 
Genez said:
God's power is His Grace!
Grace is God's power to enable the helpless and hopeless to be made able to choose and to do for what is right! (2 Corinthians 12:9)

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Right, and that's my point. But I'm asking particular people particular questions based on discussions we are engaged in. If you follow along, you might learn something.
 
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Cameron143 said:
Did they belong to Christ?
Click to expand...
They were saved. But, not as His Bride.
They were like what John the Baptist spoke about his salvation.

You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ ​
but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ He who has the bride is the bridegroom; ​
but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly ​
because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. John 3:28-29​

Note!
John the Baptist called himself the friend of the bridegroom, not the groom's bride!

Not everyone saved will be the bride of Christ in eternity.
 
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Genez said:
They were saved. But, not as His Bride.
They were like what John the Baptist spoke about his salvation.

You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ ​
but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ He who has the bride is the bridegroom; ​
but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly ​
because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. John 3:28-29​

Note!
John the Baptist called himself the friend of the bridegroom, not the groom's bride!

Not everyone saved will be the bride of Christ in eternity.
Click to expand...
That's not exactly what those verses mean. John is simply answering the question is he the Messiah. His answer is no. Like a bridegroom, his job is to point to someone more important than himself. That's the context. He wasn't explaining the difference between being saved under the old and the new.
 
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Cameron143 said:
Can you define grace?
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Grace is undeserved divine favor. It is God’s mercy to sinners.


Romans 5:8

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.



Romans 3:24

Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.


2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us to a holy life – not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.
 
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Anchorite said:
Grace is undeserved divine favor. It is God’s mercy to sinners.



Romans 5:8

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.



Romans 3:24

Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.


2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us to a holy life – not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.
Click to expand...
So grace is the manifestation of God's power to confer undeserved blessing on/in/through an individual?
 
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