The book of Job

[reneweddaybyday]

No one has answered it.

It's been answered many times. That you do not like the answer does not mean no one has answered your question.

You know you can't answer it because it will destroy your narrative.

I've already answered ... you are questioning another person's heart and no one knows the heart of another. Only God knows.

God already told you that Job was a man who reverenced God ... Job eschewed evil. you do not believe what God said about Job. And you will never understand the lessons taught in the book of Job until you rid yourself of your false premise.

.

 

[tttallison]

It's been answered many times. That you do not like the answer does not mean no one has answered your question.





I've already answered ... you are questioning another person's heart and no one knows the heart of another. Only God knows.

God already told you that Job was a man who reverenced God ... Job eschewed evil. you do not believe what God said about Job. And you will never understand the lessons taught in the book of Job until you rid yourself of your false premise.

.

OK! Is your answer then that you don't know whether Job was depending on his own righteousness, or God's righteousness for salvation? And are you saying it doesn't matter whether it was his own righteousness that Job was depending on for his salvation?

I ask this because God asked Job this same question, only with a little variation.

Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

 

[christophernyc]

In God himself what? That God exists! A lot of people believe that. Does that mean they are saved?

Job's faith is more than just believing that God exists. Job’s faith includes him trusting in God and walking in God's ways.

Job 13:15
Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him

Job's faith is in God Himself to save him.

Job 13:16
He also shall be my salvation

The answers are in Scripture. The evidence is in the written Word.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

OK! Is your answer then that you don't know whether Job was depending on his own righteousness, or God's righteousness for salvation? And are you saying it doesn't matter whether it was his own righteousness that Job was depending on for his salvation?

I'm saying it's a fallacious question.

I ask this because God asked Job this same question, only with a little variation.

Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

I have explained to you the meaning of Job 40:14 ... you rejected ... therefore, you believe God "asked Job this same question" ... when God did not ask the question you say He asked.

.

 

[tttallison]

Job's faith is more than just believing that God exists. Job’s faith includes him trusting in God and walking in God's ways.

Job 13:15
Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him

Job's faith is in God Himself to save him.

Job 13:16
He also shall be my salvation

The answers are in Scripture. The evidence is in the written Word.

Let me make it simple for you. Is the answer A. or is the answer B.?

A. Job was depending on God's righteousness for his salvation.

B. Job was depending on Job's righteousness for his salvation.

 

[christophernyc]

Just as I thought you have no evidence just as you have no motive.

Huh? This statement is unclear.

Evidence Eliphaz is lying was provided. Did you read what was written in the post? Here it is again:

Job 22:5
Is not thy wickedness great? and thine iniquities infinite?

Job 22:6
For thou hast taken a pledge from thy brother for nought, and stripped the naked of their clothing.

Job 22:7
Thou hast not given water to the weary to drink, and thou hast withholden bread from the hungry.

These are all lies. Eliphaz is lying. He is fabricating sins for Job. Job did not do any of these things, nor are these false accusations confirmed anywhere.

We know Job why Job is suffering based on what is written in the words in chapters 1 & 2.

Job himself also says his friends are lying.

Job 13:4-7
But ye are forgers of lies, ye are all physicians of no value.
O that ye would altogether hold your peace! and it should be your wisdom.
Hear now my reasoning, and hearken to the pleadings of my lips.
Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?

 

[christophernyc]

Job had a zeal for God, but Job had no knowledge. Just as Paul thought he was doing God's work in destroying Christians, so did Job think he was doing God's work when he made judgments about people that was wrong. Job seemed to have a disdain for the poor.

This is simply your conjecture.

The text does not say Job had “no” knowledge. It says Job “spoke” without knowledge. Job “spoke” without knowledge during his trial and tribulation. This is self-evident since neither Job, nor his friends, knew the actual reason for why he was suffering.

But what is significant about Job’s statement, which you have omitted, is that Job spoke of things which were “too wonderful for him”.

Job 42:3
Therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
You seem to be interpreting this as something negative. Does it makes sense to describe something that is negative as “wonderful”?

Consider Job 19:25 when Job says he knows his Redeemer lives. He knows this *because of his faith* but he did not know it as first-hand knowledge (like you and I know from reading the NT).

Job knows his Redeemer lives and He will one day stand upon the earth. Sounds pretty *wonderful* to me, too.

Also consider Job 28 where Job provides the very definition of wisdom. Nobody can rightly claim Job had “no” knowledge. To say so is utter balderdash.

Finally, Job does not have disdain for the poor. This is a false accusation. We know the opposite based on the text:

Job 4:3,4 (Eliphaz)
Behold, thou hast instructed many, and thou hast strengthened the weak hands.
Thy words have upholden him that was falling, and thou hast strengthened the feeble knees.

Job 29:12 (Job)
Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him.

 

[christophernyc]

You avoided answering the question. Yes, Job had faith that God would save him. Job knew he didn't have the power to save himself. But here is the problem, Job thought he deserved to be saved because he was a good person. We know, or at least I hope you know that no one is ever saved because they are a good person. Job needed to be clothed in God's righteousness, who we know to be Jesus Christ.

God said, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
The spirit said,Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Elihu said, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?
The three friends said, Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

In answer to your question, yes.

Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

Again...

So according to your own independent interpretation, Job is persevering in his pride the whole time he is suffering?

The discussion for the post was in regards to James commending Job for persevering. So your answer is “yes” Job is persevering and being steadfast and patient “in his pride”.

Really? You believe that??

So instead of the word “steadfastness” wouldn't the proper word for your independent interpretation be “stubbornness”?

And please tell us, why in the world would James commend Job for being steadfast in his pride?

Please explain how you can possibly defend that belief.

 

[Waden21]

Does anyone else in hear think this entire book is a story parable for teaching?

 

[Waden21]

There were many theories on why Job suffered the things he suffered. God rebuked several of the people with the opinions.

However, in this thread I would like to look at what the rest of the Bible says to figure out what God's role was and why this happened.

1. God is omniscient. The book of Job makes it clear that He knew what Satan was planning to do.

2. God is omnipotent. The book of Job makes it clear that God allowed it to happen.

If you deny that God is omniscient then that is considered Blasphemy. If you deny that God is omnipotent that also is blasphemy.

3. God said this about Job: "8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

So that has to be part of your explanation, it can't contradict what God says here because God cannot lie.

Now we have promises from God in Psalm 91 and Deuteronomy 28 to protect us from evil. That is a covenant that we have with God.

How can you reconcile the covenant and promises we have with God with what happened? By all means use your own personal experiences if that helps explain this.

Please look up Hebrew and Aramaic original scripture/ history the difference in the word meanings and what satins job is . It’s worth the work. Helpful hint you can learn a lot of this not all but a lot using Ai to do the translation and digging. I like setting up the conversation by telling it to look at the oldest original Hebrew and Aramaic, scriptures and history, excluding Greek and western influence.

 

[Waden21]

Part 1: The Role of Ha-Satan in the Original Hebrew Text
In the ancient Hebrew mindset, there is only One Supreme Will (Deuteronomy 6:4). The concept of a "cosmic war" between a good God and an evil Devil is completely foreign to the original scriptures; that is a Persian and Greek concept called dualism. In the Hebrew scriptures, God is the source of all things, and everything in the spirit world answers directly to Him.

1. It is a Job Title, Not a Name
In the Hebrew text, the word is written as הַשָּׂטָן (Ha-Satan).

• The prefix הַ (Ha) is the definite article "The."
• You cannot put "The" in front of a proper name (you wouldn't say "The Abraham" or "The Moses"). Therefore, he is The Adversary or The Prosecutor.
• His role is an office or a function within the heavenly courtroom, much like a district attorney or an auditor.

2. The Loyal Investigating Officer
Look closely at how Ha-Satan operates in the prologue of Job. He does not sneak into heaven, and he does not break the rules:

• Reporting for Duty: He arrives alongside the other Bnei Elohim (sons of God) to present himself before Yahweh (Job 1:6). He belongs there.
• The Assignment: God asks him where he has been. He responds that he has been "roaming through the earth and walking around in it" (Job 1:7). In the ancient Near East, this was the exact phrase used by royal secret service inspectors who traveled a king's empire to test the loyalty of his subjects.
• Testing Integrity: When God brags about Job's perfection, Ha-Satan challenges the motivation of that righteousness. He says, essentially: "Does Job serve you for nothing? Strip away his comfort, and he will curse you."

Ha-Satan’s job is to unmask hypocrisy. He is the ultimate investigator, ensuring that human righteousness is genuine and not just bought with blessings. He has zero authority of his own; he must ask God for permission before he can touch a single blade of Job's grass.

---

Part 2: Where the "Evil Fallen Angel" Story Actually Comes From
If the original scriptures paint Ha-Satan as a courtroom prosecutor, where did the Western story of a beautiful, rebellious angel thrown out of heaven come from? It happened entirely outside of the Hebrew scriptures through three distinct phases:

1. The Hebrew Text of Isaiah 14:12 (Without the Word "Lucifer")
The primary verse used by Westerners to manufacture a fallen angel story is Isaiah 14:12. In the original Hebrew, the word "Lucifer" does not exist. The text reads:

אֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר
How you have fallen from heaven, Helel ben Shachar [Shining One, Son of the Dawn]!

• The Real Target: The text explicitly states in verse 4 that this entire speech is a מָשָׁל (mashal — a satirical proverb/parable) directed at a human being: the King of Babylon.
• The Metaphor: The King of Babylon compared himself to the morning star (the planet Venus), which shines brighter than all other stars in the early dawn. Isaiah mocks him, saying that just as the morning star quickly fades and vanishes when the sun rises, this proud human king will be cast down into the dirt (Sheol) and die like any other man. It was a political taunt about human ego, completely unrelated to a spiritual angel.

2. The "Lucifer" Shift
When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Latin centuries later, the translators swapped the descriptive Hebrew phrase Helel ben Shachar (morning star) for the Latin word for the morning star: lucifer. Over generations of Western reading, people forgot this was a Latin translation of a star metaphor for a Babylonian king. They capitalized the word, turned it into a proper name ("Lucifer"), and invented a backstory for a fallen angel that the original Hebrew text never intended.

3. The Ezekiel 28 Metaphor
A similar distortion happened with Ezekiel 28, where the prophet addresses the King of Tyre, mocking his immense wealth and pride by poetically comparing him to a pristine "cherub in the Garden of Eden." Just like the King of Babylon, the King of Tyre's pride caused his downfall. Western interpreters stripped away the historical context of the Phoenician king and claimed this, too, was a literal description of Satan's secret past.

Summary: The Pure Hebraic View
In the original scriptures, Ha-Satan is a tool of the Almighty. He is the friction that tests the gold. Without Greek concepts of a cosmic war between equal forces of good and evil, the original text shows that God uses Ha-Satan to expose the deep truths of the human heart—just as he did with Job.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Does anyone else in hear think this entire book is a story parable for teaching?

do you believe the book of Job is "a story parable for teaching"?

do you believe there was no man from the land of Uz whose name was Job? ... no Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu ... they're all fictional characters, not historical people who lived?

.

 

[Waden21]

Ok this is a piece of digging please keep in mind for me it’s more about what I am supposed to learn from the book . Which is where I would love to go further with .

1. Internal Textual Evidence: The Perfect Symmetry
A primary indicator that Job is a parable is its rigid mathematical symmetry, a classic trait of ancient Middle Eastern poetic teaching allegories.

• The Perfect Numbers: Job is introduced with precisely 7 sons and 3 daughters (adding up to the divine number 10), possessing 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 yoke of oxen, and 500 female donkeys (Job 1:2–3).
• The Exact Mirror Ending: At the end of the teaching story, God restores Job’s fortunes by doubling his exact wealth: he receives exactly 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 oxen, and 1,000 donkeys, along with exactly 7 more sons and 3 more daughters (Job 42:12–13).

Real human history is messy, uneven, and random. This type of perfect, balanced numerology is a deliberate Hebrew literary signal that the author is weaving a structured mashal (parable) to teach a cosmic truth.

2. The Genre Shift: Prose vs. Poetry
The physical layout of the original Hebrew text points directly to a teaching presentation. The book is framed like an ancient play:

• It begins with a brief introductory story written in simple prose (the prologue in heaven and earth).
• It immediately shifts into a massive, highly structured, complex epic poetry section featuring long, alternating speeches between Job and his friends.
• It concludes with a brief prose epilogue.

In the Near East, everyday people suffering from immense grief and physical sores do not spontaneously debate their friends in flawless, meter-regulated Hebrew verse. The poetic dialogues are a stylized educational format meant to represent different schools of theological thought regarding why the innocent suffer.

3. The Unmarked Setting
In historical Old Testament books (like Kings or Chronicles), characters are carefully linked to known lineages, detailed genealogies, and specific reigns of Israeli kings. Job has none of these markers. He is simply described as a man from the "land of Uz" (Job 1:1). Uz is an ambiguous, poetic territorial name outside the borders of Israel. By placing Job outside the covenant land of Israel and leaving his lineage open, the author signals that Job is an archetype for all of humanity, making the parable applicable to anyone, anywhere.

4. Ancient Hebrew Oral Tradition: The Talmudic Consensus
The closest we can get to a perspective free from Western or Greek influence is the ancient Jewish oral tradition recorded by the sages. In the Babylon Talmud, within the tractate Bava Batra 15a, a prominent school of thought explicitly defines the book as an educational story:

איוב לא היה ולא נברא אלא משל היה
“Job never existed and was never created; rather, his story was a parable.” — Resh Lakish, Bava Batra 15a

While other rabbis argued over which era a historical Job might have lived in, ancient Hebrew scholarship actively embraced the reality that Job was a paradigmatic figure—a masterpiece of sacred fiction constructed to challenge shallow religious ideas about suffering, justice, and the nature of God.

 

[Waden21]

Also whose son is he?
What were his son’s names?
You find the daughters names.
This is a direct conflict with the rest of scripture. The genealogy shows sons of rarely mention daughters.

 

[Waden21]

do you believe the book of Job is "a story parable for teaching"?

do you believe there was no man from the land of Uz whose name was Job? ... no Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu ... they're all fictional characters, not historical people who lived?

.

1. Internal Textual Evidence: The Perfect Symmetry
A primary indicator that Job is a parable is its rigid mathematical symmetry, a classic trait of ancient Middle Eastern poetic teaching allegories

• The Perfect Numbers: Job is introduced with precisely 7 sons and 3 daughters (adding up to the divine number 10), possessing 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 yoke of oxen, and 500 female donkeys (Job 1:2–3).
• The Exact Mirror Ending: At the end of the teaching story, God restores Job’s fortunes by doubling his exact wealth: he receives exactly 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 oxen, and 1,000 donkeys, along with exactly 7 more sons and 3 more daughters (Job 42:12–13).

Real human history is messy, uneven, and random. This type of perfect, balanced numerology is a deliberate Hebrew literary signal that the author is weaving a structured mashal (parable) to teach a cosmic truth.

2. The Genre Shift: Prose vs. Poetry
The physical layout of the original Hebrew text points directly to a teaching presentation. The book is framed like an ancient play:

• It begins with a brief introductory story written in simple prose (the prologue in heaven and earth).
• It immediately shifts into a massive, highly structured, complex epic poetry section featuring long, alternating speeches between Job and his friends.
• It concludes with a brief prose epilogue.

In the Near East, everyday people suffering from immense grief and physical sores do not spontaneously debate their friends in flawless, meter-regulated Hebrew verse. The poetic dialogues are a stylized educational format meant to represent different schools of theological thought regarding why the innocent suffer.

3. The Unmarked Setting
In historical Old Testament books (like Kings or Chronicles), characters are carefully linked to known lineages, detailed genealogies, and specific reigns of Israeli kings. Job has none of these markers. He is simply described as a man from the "land of Uz" (Job 1:1). Uz is an ambiguous, poetic territorial name outside the borders of Israel. By placing Job outside the covenant land of Israel and leaving his lineage open, the author signals that Job is an archetype for all of humanity, making the parable applicable to anyone, anywhere.

4. Ancient Hebrew Oral Tradition: The Talmudic Consensus
The closest we can get to a perspective free from Western or Greek influence is the ancient Jewish oral tradition recorded by the sages. In the Babylon Talmud, within the tractate Bava Batra 15a, a prominent school of thought explicitly defines the book as an educational story:

איוב לא היה ולא נברא אלא משל היה
“Job never existed and was never created; rather, his story was a parable.” — Resh Lakish, Bava Batra 15a

While other rabbis argued over which era a historical Job might have lived in, ancient Hebrew scholarship actively embraced the reality that Job was a paradigmatic figure—a masterpiece of sacred fiction constructed to challenge shallow religious ideas about suffering, justice, and the nature of God.

 

[tttallison]

Does anyone else in hear think this entire book is a story parable for teaching?

I think it is about one of the most righteous men that lived and yet his own righteousness could not save him. I believe the story to be literal.

 

[tttallison]

1. Internal Textual Evidence: The Perfect Symmetry
A primary indicator that Job is a parable is its rigid mathematical symmetry, a classic trait of ancient Middle Eastern poetic teaching allegories

• The Perfect Numbers: Job is introduced with precisely 7 sons and 3 daughters (adding up to the divine number 10), possessing 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 yoke of oxen, and 500 female donkeys (Job 1:2–3).
• The Exact Mirror Ending: At the end of the teaching story, God restores Job’s fortunes by doubling his exact wealth: he receives exactly 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 oxen, and 1,000 donkeys, along with exactly 7 more sons and 3 more daughters (Job 42:12–13).

Real human history is messy, uneven, and random. This type of perfect, balanced numerology is a deliberate Hebrew literary signal that the author is weaving a structured mashal (parable) to teach a cosmic truth.

2. The Genre Shift: Prose vs. Poetry
The physical layout of the original Hebrew text points directly to a teaching presentation. The book is framed like an ancient play:

• It begins with a brief introductory story written in simple prose (the prologue in heaven and earth).
• It immediately shifts into a massive, highly structured, complex epic poetry section featuring long, alternating speeches between Job and his friends.
• It concludes with a brief prose epilogue.

In the Near East, everyday people suffering from immense grief and physical sores do not spontaneously debate their friends in flawless, meter-regulated Hebrew verse. The poetic dialogues are a stylized educational format meant to represent different schools of theological thought regarding why the innocent suffer.

3. The Unmarked Setting
In historical Old Testament books (like Kings or Chronicles), characters are carefully linked to known lineages, detailed genealogies, and specific reigns of Israeli kings. Job has none of these markers. He is simply described as a man from the "land of Uz" (Job 1:1). Uz is an ambiguous, poetic territorial name outside the borders of Israel. By placing Job outside the covenant land of Israel and leaving his lineage open, the author signals that Job is an archetype for all of humanity, making the parable applicable to anyone, anywhere.

4. Ancient Hebrew Oral Tradition: The Talmudic Consensus
The closest we can get to a perspective free from Western or Greek influence is the ancient Jewish oral tradition recorded by the sages. In the Babylon Talmud, within the tractate Bava Batra 15a, a prominent school of thought explicitly defines the book as an educational story:


While other rabbis argued over which era a historical Job might have lived in, ancient Hebrew scholarship actively embraced the reality that Job was a paradigmatic figure—a masterpiece of sacred fiction constructed to challenge shallow religious ideas about suffering, justice, and the nature of God.

If Job is not literal than you can't trust Ezekiel or James. Think about what you are saying.

 

[Waden21]

If Job is not literal than you can't trust Ezekiel or James. Think about what you are saying.

The Core Contrast: Geographic Fiction vs. Historic Coordinates

• Why Job is a Parable (Mashal): The Missing Footprints
  In the original Hebrew text, Job is completely detached from the physical history of Israel. He has no family genealogy and lives in the "land of Uz" (Job 1:1), an ambiguous, poetic region outside covenant borders. Furthermore, the narrative uses perfectly symmetrical, symbolic numbers—Job has exactly 7 sons and 3 daughters (Job 1:2), loses them, and is later restored with the exact double of his wealth and the same 7 sons and 3 daughters (Job 42:12-13). This mathematically perfect symmetry and lack of lineage are the deliberate markers of a Hebrew mashal—a universal teaching story designed to represent all of humanity.
• Why Ezekiel and James are True History: The Exact Coordinates
  Unlike the poetic vacuum of Job, Ezekiel and James anchor themselves in gritty, verifiable historical time and space:
  • Ezekiel names his exact location—the Kebar River in Babylon—and logs a precise calendar date: the fifth day of the fourth month in the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin (Ezekiel 1:1-3).
  • James addresses his letter to a specific, real-world political crisis: the twelve tribes scattered by Roman persecution (James 1:1), calling out the documented, corrupt 1st-century landowners who were withholding wages from real agricultural fields (James 5:4).

Summary: Job uses symbolic numbers and a placeless setting to teach a universal spiritual lesson, while Ezekiel and James provide chronological dates, real political figures, and exact geographic locations to document actual history.

 

[Waden21]

If Job is not literal than you can't trust Ezekiel or James. Think about what you are saying.

Proverbs 2:4

 

[christophernyc]

Let me make it simple for you. Is the answer A. or is the answer B.?

A. Job was depending on God's righteousness for his salvation.

B. Job was depending on Job's righteousness for his salvation.

Should be pretty clear nobody has any difficulty understanding your question or why you specifically are asking it. In fact, you have already answered your own question insisting that Job is trusting in his own righteousness to save him. We understand your position.

Here is my answer:

C. Neither

Again, Job is trusting in God Himself to save him.

That’s the answer.

Job 13:16 (Job)
He also shall be my salvation

Compare this statement from Job with the words of Moses, David, and Isaiah:

Exodus 15:2
The LORD is my strength and my song, and He has become my salvation;

Psalm 62:2
He alone is my rock and my salvation, my fortress; I shall not be greatly shaken.

Isaiah 12:2
Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid;
for the LORD GOD is my strength and my song, and He has become my salvation.

Job’s faith is in God. Job’s faith is in God before, during, and after his trial.