Calvinism is Gospel !

[HeIsHere]

I would be here all day typing up a storm if I were to correct all the misunderstandings or willful misrepresentations and strawmen of what is called 'reformed theology'..

The doctrines of grace do not teach that the serpent on the pole didn't need to be looked at or that the Gospel isn't to be obeyed. The difference is that one side believes man can muster up that faith by himself and the other side believes faith is granted/given by God because man is in a state of spiritual death. One side believes man can escape this spiritual death by believing and the other side believes man cannot do anything unless it is given to him by God

Faith is not something one "musters" up.

Strange how you guys all sound alike .. same phrases, it should be of concern but is isn't.

The reality is "the doctrines of grace" are not taught by scripture but rather are imposed on the text.

 

[Churchgoer]

yes - they receive the promises through Christ

Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Correct, only thought Christ.

For those that reject Jesus, they are not in the covenant at all, no matter ethnicity.

 

[HeIsHere]

I agree the world cannot receive the spirit of truth. But that is why Peter says to save yourselves from this untoward generation. Repent and believe. That is when you are no longer of the world.

Jesus says you won't come to me so that you won't have life. So how can someone have life before coming to Christ? That is what would be required if regeneration precedes faith

Yes agree, another verse plucked out of context so that it sounds like it supporting the doctrine of total inability.
Of course the world cannot receive the Holy Spirit until they have learned about and accepted Christ Jesus.

As well, this was part of the instructions given to His disciples as they made their into the world and they knew Jesus and the Spirit was dwelling with them at that point in time.

 

[HeIsHere]

Neither Calvin, nor those of us who believe the Doctrines of Grace, to which Calvin's name has been applied, say that only a few are saved. This is perhaps one of the disadvantages of the "TULIP" acronym, because "Limited Redemption" can give the idea of fewness. (Of course the acronym wasn't Calvin's; I understand it was devised in the early 20th century.) I much prefer the term "Particular Redemption", because it avoids the idea of fewness, and reflects biblical teaching, as for example in this verse:

(Joh 6:37 NKJV) All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

We fully believe the following verse:

(Rev 7:9) After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

So please don't say that I believe that only a few people were created to be saved. And if ever I misrepresent what you believe, I hope you would (politely) point it out.

Really it is not whether it is a few or a multitude ... the scripture nowhere supports that Christ Jesus only died for a select, preferred group of people.

 

[Churchgoer]

True. The natural mind cannot understand the things of God.

I believe when we are filled with the breath of God,His Holy Spirit, we can only be civil to one another as members of His Body,as His Church. Regardless of the topics discussed.

Milk and Meat.
All of His Faithful are on their own journey,as He wills.

Then there are Disruptors. Who enter in for just that purpose. They enter in and talk with us. But they are not one with us.

Yeah the disruptor, not able to have civil discussion. Just showcase their true color.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yeah the disruptor, not able to have civil discussion. Just showcase their true color.

More like the instigator.

 

[HeIsHere]

The TRUE Gospel of Believing that you were dead in your sins and by putting your faith in Christ you are saved is totally different than

the Calvinist “gospel” of determinism where people are born never in any danger of hell and believing in Christ is an inevitable

formality.

 

[DavidLamb]

Really it is not whether it is a few or a multitude ... the scripture nowhere supports that Christ Jesus only died for a select, preferred group of people.

But I was replying to ShaunGutfeld777, who has written: "he (the God Calvinists believe in) decided only a few people were created to be saved." That was why I mentioned "few". Scripture does talk of some people being chosen by God before the foundation of the world:

(Eph 1:3-4 NKJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

We are not told that God preferred those people, or why He chose them. I believe it to be the spiritual equivalent of God's reason for choosing Israel:

(Deu 7:7) The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples;

 

[Churchgoer]

But I was replying to ShaunGutfeld777, who has written: "he (the God Calvinists believe in) decided only a few people were created to be saved." That was why I mentioned "few". Scripture does talk of some people being chosen by God before the foundation of the world:

(Eph 1:3-4 NKJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

We are not told that God preferred those people, or why He chose them. I believe it to be the spiritual equivalent of God's reason for choosing Israel:

(Deu 7:7) The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples;

Yes, please explain these scripture quoting.
Both sides welcome. Civil discussion if one is capable. If not capable of civil, please just showcase your true color.

 

[Komentaja]

Yes agree, another verse plucked out of context so that it sounds like it supporting the doctrine of total inability.
Of course the world cannot receive the Holy Spirit until they have learned about and accepted Christ Jesus.

As well, this was part of the instructions given to His disciples as they made their into the world and they knew Jesus and the Spirit was dwelling with them at that point in time.

There is so much explaining to do if you are a calvinist, WE can just read passages that say "Return to me, come to me" and conclude that God wants us to come to Him and He is telling us to do so. Very simple.

I am suggesting an Occam's razor situation here

Calvinism requires a lot of extra categories to make everything fit:

Two wills (decretive vs preceptive)
Natural ability vs moral inability
General call vs effectual call
Regeneration preceding faith
Visible vs invisible church
“Vessels of wrath” prepared for destruction, yet God pleading with them as if they could repent

Every time a verse says “you were not willing,” “draw near,” “repent and live,” or “God desires all to repent,” Calvinism has to add layers (“this is the general call,” “this is to the visible church,” “they are responsible even though they can’t,” etc.).

Its a mess man. Why even have so many of these draw near texts? Just to make people even more guilty of rejecting something they can't but reject based on their nature? Anyone who reads any literature like this would be deemed the archbishop of reading into the text, only with the Bible do you get away with this stuff.

 

[HeIsHere]

But I was replying to ShaunGutfeld777, who has written: "he (the God Calvinists believe in) decided only a few people were created to be saved." That was why I mentioned "few". Scripture does talk of some people being chosen by God before the foundation of the world:

(Eph 1:3-4 NKJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

We are not told that God preferred those people, or why He chose them. I believe it to be the spiritual equivalent of God's reason for choosing Israel:

(Deu 7:7) The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples;

Yes you were, and my point is no matter whether one states few or a multitude as an error or misrepresentation is not of any significance.. since the doctrine of Limited Atonement, in and of itself, is not supported by scripture.

Members can respond to any post.

 

[Roger316]

God allowing Satan to afflict Job does not mean God was responsible for the injury that Satan caused.

The Bible never says that God was responsible for Job’s afflictions.

For some reason, people seem to draw a distinction between "allowing" evil and "permitting" evil. We admit that God permitted Satan to injure Job, but God put limits on what he could do to Job.

Undoubtedly, if Satan were acting on his own initiative, God would not be responsible for the injury Satan caused. However, the text clearly implies that Satan needed permission from God before he acted. When someone in command gives his permission to act, he is taking responsibility for the act. Therefore, since God gave his permission, God takes responsibility for Job's injuries.

The central issue is motive. Why did Satan want to injure Job? Why did God permit it? These are two distinct questions.

Job set himself up, made himself vulnerable to, the attacks of Satan, by fearing bad things might happen.

Job is not portrayed as someone who believed in karma—the idea that bad things automatically happen to bad people. Instead, the text presents him as a man who feared the Lord and assumed that any suffering must be a punishment from God. Job wasn’t wrong to believe that God judges wrongdoing; Scripture affirms that he does and will. Job’s mistake was assuming that his suffering meant God was punishing him personally. He knew he had done nothing to deserve such treatment, and he desperately wanted to understand why God would allow him to suffer.

Job’s friends shared the same assumption: that suffering is always a sign of God’s disfavor. They insisted that Job must have sinned and that his pain was proof of divine judgment. Their error, like Job’s, was believing that every instance of suffering is directly tied to personal guilt.

Fear is sinful. Sin has consequences.

Fear is not sinful. Fear is God's gift to us. Those who fear are those who know the truth. Cowardice is sinful. Cowards are those who run from the truth, unwilling to face the danger.

 

[HeIsHere]

There is so much explaining to do if you are a calvinist, WE can just read passages that say "Return to me, come to me" and conclude that God wants us to come to Him and He is telling us to do so. Very simple.

I am suggesting an Occam's razor situation here

Calvinism requires a lot of extra categories to make everything fit:

Two wills (decretive vs preceptive)
Natural ability vs moral inability
General call vs effectual call
Regeneration preceding faith
Visible vs invisible church
“Vessels of wrath” prepared for destruction, yet God pleading with them as if they could repent

Every time a verse says “you were not willing,” “draw near,” “repent and live,” or “God desires all to repent,” Calvinism has to add layers (“this is the general call,” “this is to the visible church,” “they are responsible even though they can’t,” etc.).

Its a mess man. Why even have so many of these draw near texts? Just to make people even more guilty of rejecting something they can't but reject based on their nature? Anyone who reads any literature like this would be deemed the archbishop of reading into the text, only with the Bible do you get away with this stuff.

Yes, I call the doctrine of split-ology or splice-ology, either works.

If each time a Calvinist has propped up the verse 1 Cor. 2:14 and I was given a dollar I am sure would have plenty of money for an all inclusive, round trip, overseas.

Yes, they are very disingenuous how they use scripture and because they read in their doctrines into the text they are blinded to the truth and they have to find ways to deal with the verses that refute their doctrines, so that "all" does not mean "all..... much irony there.

Good point on your last line... I mean what does Satan want to attack the most, post the completed work of Christ Jesus, the true plan of salvation.

Very true what you state!!
How do they get away with it..... mostly by extreme confidence when asserting their false system, it is pretty impressive.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, please explain these scripture quoting.
Both sides welcome. Civil discussion if one is capable. If not capable of civil, please just showcase your true color.

Ephesians 1:3-4 has been dealt with many times in context, on this thread and others by many here, and it was found in no uncertain terms to support the doctrine of unconditional election or limited atonement.

 

[brightfame52]

And what if a brother refused to forgive another brother?

Hasnt nothing to do with it, being Justified by grace. You always bring in the doings of man

Would you conclude that he was being saved or would this raise doubts?

If Christ died for them Yes. Those whom Christ died for are Justified while they are living ungodly lives.m Of course they shall be eventually converted, but nevertheless, they were Justified by grace way before their conversion.

 

[Cameron143]

There is so much explaining to do if you are a calvinist, WE can just read passages that say "Return to me, come to me" and conclude that God wants us to come to Him and He is telling us to do so. Very simple.

I am suggesting an Occam's razor situation here

Calvinism requires a lot of extra categories to make everything fit:

Two wills (decretive vs preceptive)
Natural ability vs moral inability
General call vs effectual call
Regeneration preceding faith
Visible vs invisible church
“Vessels of wrath” prepared for destruction, yet God pleading with them as if they could repent

Every time a verse says “you were not willing,” “draw near,” “repent and live,” or “God desires all to repent,” Calvinism has to add layers (“this is the general call,” “this is to the visible church,” “they are responsible even though they can’t,” etc.).

Its a mess man. Why even have so many of these draw near texts? Just to make people even more guilty of rejecting something they can't but reject based on their nature? Anyone who reads any literature like this would be deemed the archbishop of reading into the text, only with the Bible do you get away with this stuff.

Salvation is by grace.

Grace is the exercise of God's power in/on/through an individual.

Ergo, salvation is by the exercise of God's power in/on/through an individual.

 

[Komentaja]

Salvation is by grace.

Grace is the exercise of God's power in/on/through an individual.

Ergo, salvation is by the exercise of God's power in/on/through an individual.

Cool. Now how does one obtain this grace? It is in CHRIST. So you gotta get in Christ to get it.

Hasnt nothing to do with it, being Justified by grace. You always bring in the doings of man

If Christ died for them Yes. Those whom Christ died for are Justified while they are living ungodly lives.m Of course they shall be eventually converted, but nevertheless, they were Justified by grace way before their conversion.

Not true, we are justified by FAITH, not prior to it.

 

[Komentaja]

Yes, I call the doctrine of split-ology or splice-ology, either works.

If each time a Calvinist has propped up the verse 1 Cor. 2:14 and I was given a dollar I am sure would have plenty of money for an all inclusive, round trip, overseas.

Yes, they are very disingenuous how they use scripture and because they read in their doctrines into the text they are blinded to the truth and they have to find ways to deal with the verses that refute their doctrines, so that "all" does not mean "all..... much irony there.

Good point on your last line... I mean what does Satan want to attack the most, post the completed work of Christ Jesus, the true plan of salvation.

Very true what you state!!
How do they get away with it..... mostly by extreme confidence when asserting their false system, it is pretty impressive.

Here we are, debating with Christians bringing dishonor to Christ and to the faith. All of this division of course going by God's secret will It is all going according to His plan they say

 

[Cameron143]

Wouldn't you say that the gospel includes that we are justified by faith, and saved by grace through faith? I'm sure you would. Didn't James say that a faith without works is dead? What would it mean if I make a claim to faith but don't do anything in accordance to faith? Surely, Paul wasn't suggesting that a mere claim to faith is enough? Did he?

The gospel is the foundational message of Christianity. It is the historical account of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, and the offer of salvation and forgiveness of sins. That's it. The implications and applications of this is doctrine. Whatever else Paul was suggesting is truth that results from and clarifies the gospel, but it is not the gospel.

I think you make this harder than it is.

 

[Cameron143]

Cool. Now how does one obtain this grace? It is in CHRIST. So you gotta get in Christ to get it.


Not true, we are justified by FAITH, not prior to it.

First, grace is the activity of God. We don't obtain it. It is given.
Second, we cannot place ourselves into Christ. The Spirit places us in Christ...for by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...1 Corinthians 12:13.

And God did this while we were still His enemies...when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God...Romans 5:10.