Children are weaned from the breast at different times. Some are weaned by 1 year of age, some are still suckling at 5. This latter is not common, but it does occur. But I know of very few people who would call a 5-year-old and infant. When it comes to scripture, God knows when someone is mature, but the individual is a very poor judge of that, just as they can be a very poor judge as to when a voice is from God and when it is not. I have seen entire churches, of supposedly mature Christians, deceived by what they consider a voice from God. In one such case I know of one member who had been a Christian for over 30 years yet was deceived along with the rest of that church. The specific belief was that God assured them that the HS would descend regularly under specific circumstances. Yet scripture teaches that the HS moves when and where it will and cannot be predicted.
Was Judas Iscariot saved, or was he not?
- Thread starter Godsgood
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Not unbelievers in Jesus Christ as chosen apostles of Jesus Christ.
Only a false Christ chooses for himself unbelievers in Jesus Christ.
This is falsely taken out of context. No man or woman is made evil by the Lord God and Christ. He is the Creator and Maker of all men and women in His own image. And lightens every person coming into the world:
Jhn 1:2
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made…That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
The Scripture in Rom 9 is part of a rebuke to predeterminists, that accuse Jesus Christ of making some people to do good unto life, and makes some people to do evil unto destruction.
Eze 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live:
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Amen. Only believers in Jesus Christ are chosen by Him to serve and preach His faith.
Rom 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
True again. In John 6, those who turned back from the Lord Jesus, being offended at His word, were judged unbelievers by Jesus Christ. At that time, it did not include any of the chosen 12 apostles, who remained with Him. All the 12 were still believers in the Lord Jesus as the only One that had the words of life:
Jhn 6:67
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
?? Judas 'as himself'? Judas did not betray Jesus, because he was no 'really himself' that day? What is this psychology today? innocent by reason of insanity? "That was not me that did th
That kind of self justification also says it's God's fault, because "He made me this way..."
So when Lucifer was not himself, and so rose betrayed God Himself, who made him do it?
In any case, we don't preach pseudo-science, but the the truth of God's words: Judas made himself a vessel of Satan and wrath, by betraying Jesus to His accusers. And by hanging himself rather than repent like Peter, Jesus calls Judas himself the son of perdition, not the devil.
Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
So, now it wasn't even Judas Iscariot 'himself' given to Jesus by the Father for apostleship, but Satan himself.
2 Timothy{6:20}
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.
It's that predetermism combined with self-justifying OSAS, that leads to justifying Judas Iscariot, so that any believer doing any transgression against God, can also be justified by their pseudo-election faith alone.
And other faith alone justifiers have said that God will kill His own evil-doing believers, and take them to heaven, in order to preserve His testimony on earth. You just have a modernish psycho spin to it.
In any case, this whole thread is just confirmation, that the self-justification religion of election by faith alone apart from works, or the predeterminist election apart from faith and works, will go to any depth to justify evil doers that once believed Jesus is Christ, Son of God...
But hey, there are universalist Christians, that believe not only Judas, Hitler, Nero, Attila, but all men and women are now elect, saved, and justified with God forever, by the death, burial, and resurrections of Jesus Christ alone. It would be a blessing to them to wake up to that fact in this life, but not at all necessary. especially not to repent of any evil doing at all...
Who does that? Who claims "that they can save their fellow human beings by offering prayers to God" on behalf of others?
Unless you can quote someone who actually makes or has made that claim, you're just spouting empty wind from your rather fertile imagination.
That's not what Matthew 23 says.
As usual, you cite the Scripture while demonstrating that you don't understand it. You only quote it to appear knowledgeable and righteous, but in truth you are only full of resentment and false accusations.
Amen. And there you have the simple gospel answer, for the guilty to repent and receive mercy rather than sacrifice of death.
Jesus called Peter Satan, and Peter forsook Jesus, and was greatly grieved unto repentance, not unto death.
The simple difference between Peter and Judas was the response to betrayal and guilt:
2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Mangling scripture to come up with some faith-alone justification for Judas Iscariot, or to make him a nonbelieving chosen apostle, is just digging a false hole.
Of course not.
Inapplicable and contradictory.
You misapply context. The passages below refer to the beginning. Before the fall.
You contradict God's own teachings as relates to predetermination of all things.
Scripture must preset a consistent narrative. Which is why Jesus said to test all things.
The natural mind cannot understand the things of God. They are deemed foolishness to him. Atheists will demonstrate this. Some even write books so to prove this.
Only God changes this. As he tells us.
Yes. All whose names are in The Book.
Yes. They,being chosen by him are then given faith and understanding so to now understand the things of God. Which they cannot do otherwise.
Because God gives us his understanding first.
Because they were of the men still possessed of their natural mind.
Which is the example of, many are called,as they were. Seeing the miracles Jesus performed,they thought to follow this man.
They left though because they were not called by the Father. Which was proven by their inability to understand the
teachings of Jesus. Only God,as he says, can change that.
Because,as Jesus,who was God,said. He chose,called,them. They did not choose him. Because he called,they understood his teaching.
He was possessed. Twice.
No. That's Bible.
Judas served God so the scriptures could be fulfilled. Satan entered Judas twice.
Lucifer's ego. Lucifer led angels to turn against God. And wage a war in the domain of Gods paradise . That realm we enter as redeemed Sinners was ground zero for Angels committing the first recorded willful Sin of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Everything I've said is found in the Bible .
Not true. You're ignoring scripture.
Judas did repent.
Not true.
Jesus knew the Devil was in Judas.
Precisely. The scripture was fulfilled because Satan entered Judas.
Jesus himself tells us this. Of all the Apostles God gave him,he lost none. No one. Which would,of 12 men,mean he lost none of those 12.
Except for,the exception as regards the lost,is the one that is already damned,lost. Satan. Who was within Judas and acting to betray Jesus so it appeared the man he possessed, Judas, did this
Judas was open to that possession because of the Sin he committed with regard to stealing the ministries money's.
No. Judas was called by Jesus.
As he said of and to his Disciples.
I'll leave you now. You appear as one who desnt understand the words of God but instead are an opponent of them.
Interesting response. I show that the Scripture refutes your claim, and instead of admitting that you are wrong, you post this veiled accusation.
It is clear to me that you are intending to imply that I don’t know the one true God, and therefore even plain Scripture that I post is somehow wrong.
There are two fatal problems with your statement: you have not presented any evidence for your implication (it’s just your opinion), and Scripture refutes your assertion regardless of who posts it.
I can post several more examples where Scripture calls newborn humans “children”(from any of several translations) but you are too stubborn to accept the truth.
??? you don't believe there are false Christs? Or, you don't believe false Christs would choose to use for servants, the unbelievers in Jesus Christ?
In any case, it's certainly applicable here, since some people are saying Judas was never a believer in Jesus Christ. And yet, he was a chosen apostle.
Since you agree unbelievers would never be chosen by Jesus Christ to serve Himself, then only a false Christ would do so.
You change context. The scriptures apply to the beginning and present creation the same.
Hebrews{13:8}
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
God and Christ did not change their manner of creation, because their creatures sinned against Him after creation.
Jesus Christ does not now create and make men and women evil in the image of the devil. Nor, is God now the cause and tempter for men and women doing evil after coming into the world:
Jas 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Nor has the devil now become the creator of men and women, because man and woman sinned.
Neither Jesus Christ the Creator, nor the devil and liar, now create and make any men and women evil from the womb.
Those who declare that the Creator now creates and makes men and women evil in the womb, are the devil's false accusers against the true God and Maker Jesus Christ. They only do so to justify their own evil doing, and declare, "It's not my fault, because God made me this way..."
No one can blame their own evil doing on God nor the devil. God never makes any person that way, and the devil doesn't make them do it.
I condemn the false predeterminism of Jesus Christ, that He should now create any people to do evil unto destruction.
No names in the Book of life are commanded to repent, lest they should perish.
'The Book' you speak of is not the Lamb's Book of life.
Only a book of death has names written that must repent, or perish.
No man is chosen by God without faith in Jesus Christ. No unbeliever is chosen by Jesus Christ to serve Him.
Only a false Christ chooses for service unbelievers in Jesus Christ.
The devil's greatest servants are unbelievers in Jesus Christ, that also preach false gospels in the name of Christ.
Such as, Jesus Christ is changed from the beginning, and now become the Creator and Maker of evil men and women from the womb...So that God becomes the evil Creator that makes people that way.
Yu conflate our Lord Jesus Christ with false professors. False Christ's are irrelevant to this issue.
Jesus Christ was Christ Almighty.
And Judas was called by Him to be His Disciple.
Please stick to the topic.
That's exactly right.
And Jesus knows the end from the beginning,and all things.
Judas did not turn on Jesus and thus take Jesus by surprise.
As stated earlier. Jesus knew the Devil was in him.
Consider the question, were it not for Judas-Satan acting within him,how would Jesus have come to be crucified? So to fulfill the scripture we are told Judas was meant to do?
You're going off on an off topic screed that is unsupported by scripture if one knows what God says in the proper context. Which is not in evidence above.
Then you condemn the word of God. Which,if you read it,you would never demonstrate there that you do not do so.
That's true. Because those named were called to repentance by God after he wrote their names in His Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world.
God knew them before they were in the womb.
Yes,it is.
If I may gently rebuke your remarks there by saying, I now realize you are here for your own amusement.
However,when you make statements like that,that becomes ever more obvious.
Yes,there are pretenders among us. Yes,there are disruptors who are about the business of their father.
However, when you are among those whom God called to understand His words, counterfeit debate is easily discerned.
It is a waste of one's life's time.
And is in evidence as inviting pity and prayer for the offenders depraved condition.
In short,you do not know of what you speak. And you,in your own words,have just proven this.
Satan entered into Judas once, at the last supper.
Judas was not possessed as them having no power over their actions in the tombs, or writhing on the ground, or speaking with devil's voices.
And innocent by reason of possession, is as false with God as by reason of insanity...
No. That's your pseudo-demonology.
Judas Iscariot served God by Jesus Christ as a believer and chosen apostle.
Judas Iscariot served the devil by betraying Jesus, making himself an unbeliever and false apostle, thus fulfilling the Scripture:
Psa 41:9
Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
Jhn 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Unbelievers are not chosen servants and friends of the Lord.
So also King Saul served the LORD as an anointed believer, until he served the devil by making himself a transgressor of the LORD's commandments.
1Sa 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Believers make themselves rejected by the Lord, because they rebel against Him, not because they were never anointed by Him.
As with Demas the fellowservant of Paul, who turned back from the Lord Jesus, to serve himself in the world:
Phm 1:24
Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.
2Ti 4:10
For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
So also are all believers that are chosen to serve the Lord, that if any betray Him and keep not His commandments, make themselves enemies of the cross they once preached:
Phl 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.
Your angelology is as bad as your demonology.
In any case, redeemed sinners is an oxymoronic gospel. Saints are saved and redeemed from sinning. Sinners are still sinning.
Acknowledging Jesus is innocent is not repenting of betraying Him. Even as Esau acknowledged his lost birthright was not repenting of selling it.
Heb 12:16
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Being sorry for loss and getting caught, is not godly sorrow that repents of doing the evil:
2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
God knows when anyone makes himself a vessel for Satan.
The believers in prechoosing determination and/or OSAS unconditional salvation and justification, will have any devil in heaven, so long as they are one of them.
It is the gospel of justifying the evil doers as innocent by prechoosing, and/or faith alone.
Except of course for the son of perdition Judas.
Satan was not a chosen apostle given to Jesus by God.
I suppose it's not too delusional for prechosen and/or OSAS faith aloners to have any devil in heaven, since they would have Satan himself as a chosen apostle of Jesus Christ.
You'll be back. All such self-justifiers return to the rebukes of Scripture, that they hate to hear, but can't keep themselves from returning to hear.
Like the moth to the flame...
Back so soon? I must have misread your departure.
False Christs are relevant to any Christ, that chooses unbelievers in Jesus Christ.
Still is, and ever shall be.
Jesus Christ also still is the Creator of all men and women in His own image, and makes no person in the womb to do evil unto destruction.
Prechoosing determination for some people to be created to do evil unto destruction, apart from faith or works, is the devil's lie against the good Creator and Jesus Christ, who created and creates all things good by His pleasure:
Rev 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Correct. Judas was a believer in Jesus Christ, not an unbeliever in Jesus Christ.
Only false Christs choose unbelievers in Jesus Christ to be their servants.
Of course not. Jesus already knew which chosen apostle would turn on Him.
He also knew all His chosen apostles would forsake Him, after He was betrayed by Judas.
Self-explanatory.
Since Scripture prophecies one of Jesus' chosen friends would betray Him, then for scripture to be fulfilled, if not by Judas, then by one of the others.
It simply became known by Judas' betrayal, that he was the one prophesied.
And since it was also prophesied Jesus' betrayer would perish, then Judas also fulfilled the scripture by making himself a son of perdition, by hanging himself rather than repenting.
Act 1:20
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Unlike Peter who would later repent after the resurrection of Jesus Christ....
You're the one that moved the topic of justifying Judas to prechosen determination.
Therefore, it's necessary to rebuke the predeternminist lie, that God prechooses from the beginning of creation, who He would create unto life, and who He would create unto destruction.
God does not will any to perish. And God does not choose against His own will. Therefore, God does not choose any to perish by will of creation...
If you so hate your doctrine being exposed as a false accusation against the good and true Creator Jesus Christ, then just stop teaching it. I can let it go as soon as you do...
Condemning prechosen determination apart from faith, is confirming the word of God.
If you would read the scriptures given to condemn prechosen determination, then you may believe and stop teaching it.
Unbelieverrs are not chosen by Jesus Christ to serve Him, and those written in the Lamb's book of life are not evil doers against Jesus Christ, that must repent:
Phl 4:3
And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
Only those not written in the book of life are evil doers that must repent:
Rev 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
But, in a convoluted way, it makes since for someone to preach names written in a book, are evil doers that must repent. Most notably including the son of perdition Judas Iscariot. But of course, that's just a false gospel's book of death, not the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Those saints written in the Lamb's book of Lamb are not commanded to repent of evil, that they are not doing. They are only commanded to continue overcoming evil unto the end, with resurrection in Jesus' likeness...
God knows all babes before they are in the womb. He creates them all in His own image.
Be careful about your manners all you wish. I only call it as I see it from others.
Any book with names written of evil doers, that must repent, is not the Lamb's book of life, but only a book of death to be delivered from...
True. Scripture easily rebukes the counterfeit gospels.
Such as any christ that chooses unbelievers in Jesus Christ, must be a false christ, not Jesus Christ.
And any teaching that Jesus Christ creates and makes any person to be an evil doer unto destruction, must be a false accusation of the devil against God's goodness and pleasure:
Rev 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
I said Yeshua picked them. That seems to be close in meaning to chose them.
But more importantly is that they said yes when Yeshua said, Follow Me.
If sharing the dish was something that only Judas did, and the other apostles did not dip their bread into it, that would explain why they asked Jesus one by one, "Is it I?". Because they did not do it.
MATTHEW 26:21-22
21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
On the other hand, "apostle" is not a title that applies to God. It is a designation given only to those whom He has chosen.
Anyone who does not know the one true God according to their faith may believe they are serving and loving God.
Yet because they do not truly know the one true God, they can easily be deceived by the devil.
As a result, without realizing it, they end up taking away titles that belong to God and attributing them elsewhere.
WARNING:
He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
TO GOD BE THE GLORY!
As Adam Clarke says in his commentary:
"As the Jews ate the passover a whole family together, it was not convenient for them all to dip their bread in the same dish; they therefore had several little dishes or plates, in which was the juice of the bitter herbs, mentioned Exo_12:8, on different parts of the table; and those who were nigh one of these, dipped their bread in it. As Judas is represented as dipping in the same dish with Christ, it shows that he was either near or opposite to him."
It wasn't that the other eleven didn't dip their bread, but they either didn't do it at the same time, or did it in a different bowl.
It cannot be assumed or speculated that the apostles did this on another occasion.
If that were the case, the Lord Jesus would surely have exposed them as well and revealed how they would betray Him.
For the Lord cannot be mistaken in the warning He gave:
"Whoever shares in His dish will surely betray Him."
I'm not sure if this will help. I've posted this before, but I'll say it again.
The Lord said, "I have spoken of earthly things so that you may understand heavenly things."(John 3:12)
Consider an earthly example.
A president or a king has his own desk in his office.
No one else is permitted to use that desk (I'm not referring to the desk literally).
Even when the president or king is absent, no one should use it, because that desk symbolizes the authority that belongs exclusively to the president or the king.
It would be considered a great act of betrayal if someone else were to use that desk.
In the spiritual sense, it is the same. It is a great act of betrayal against God for anyone to use or share in His dish.
Surely the important point is that Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him. The matter of whether only Judas and Jesus dipped their bread in the sauce of bitter herbs, or whether all those present dipped, but not at the same time as Jesus, r in a different dish, is not so important. We do know, from the institution of the Passover, that the Passover lamb was to be eaten with unleavened bread and bitter herbs:
(Exo 12:8 NKJV) Then they shall eat the flesh on that night; roasted in fire, with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
Jesus did not say that by dipping in the same dish as Him, Judas was betraying Him. I am not sure where in the Bible such a thing is stated.
The literal meaning of God's words is what people can readily understand.
That is why the Lord gave a warning not to interpret His words literally, because understanding His words only in their literal sense leads to destruction
2 CORINTHIANS 3:6
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Even if it was the custom of the Jews to share from the same dish, there is nothing inherently wrong with that in the literal sense. The Lord's primary message, however, is spiritual in nature.
Therefore, to those who do not know the one true God, the Lord will not reveal the spiritual message of His words.
Instead, He allows them to remain with only the literal meaning that they understand.
MATTHEW 13:10-14
10 ;And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
It is only to His chosen ones, or to those who know the one true God, that He reveals the true message contained in His words
MARK 4:34
34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples
