Calvinism is Gospel !

[PennEd]

My Bible teacher taught me a principle of sound exegesis that has stayed with me: just because a theological idea is true and biblical doesn’t mean that it is being taught here in the passage you’re studying. When someone interprets “dead” in Ephesians 2 by importing Paul’s teaching about the natural man from 1 Corinthians 2:14, they may be affirming something that is biblically correct—but that doesn’t guarantee they’re interpreting Ephesians correctly. Each passage has its own argument, context, and purpose, and responsible exegesis requires us to let the author speak on his own terms before bringing in other texts. In other words, we must first understand what Ephesians 2 is saying in its own context, and only then consider how it harmonizes with Paul’s teaching elsewhere.

Ummm. Paul’s the same author for both. Not to mention the Lord is the same author of all Scripture.

Are you one of those we are only “mostly dead” guys?

 

[Magenta]

The expression "natural man" comes almost entirely from one passage written by Paul. Jesus never used this expression, nor do the original twelve disciples in their teachings.

Thanks for admitting it is not my term as your first claimed. I know why your ilk does such things.
Typical that you would go on and on about how free will is in the Bible when it is not, just because
choice is spoken of, which is not the same thing at all, but you lack understanding on this point also.
... and then try to deny words that actually are in the Bible. Again I know why this is done. You deny Scripture.

Paul uses the word natural to refer to someone still in his original (sinful) state. He is devoid of the
Holy Spirit of God, still of the world, and cannot receive the Spirit of Truth. This is plainly laid out over a
number of verses but pretty much uniformly denied by the FW crowd. Why? Because they reject explicitly
articulated verses in favor of their opinion on something that is nowhere articulated at all in the Bible.

Jesus spoke of Gentiles, but you lack discernment there also. Paul speaks of Gentiles approximately 100
times! In the book of Acts, the Greek word for Gentiles, ethnos, is used by Luke close to 20 times.
The state of the natural man is denied outright by FW Pelagian heretics. See also Romans 11 v 21;
1 Corinthians ch 15 v 44-46 and also James 3 v 1. If you were truly interested in Truth you could
find others referring to this state prior to becoming the spiritual man. Stop pretending it isn't there.

 

[Roger316]

Jn 12:39

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

You skipped verse 40.

 

[brightfame52]

The Greek word translated "natural" is psychikos (ψυχικός). It comes from the word psyche, meaning "soul" or "natural life." It describes a person who lives according to ordinary human nature instead of being led by God's Spirit. The word itself does not mean that a person is incapable of choosing God or responding to Him. Those ideas come from later theological interpretations rather than from the word itself.

The natural man doesnt have the Spirit of God, so he has no alternative but to live according to the dictates of his nature Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

As long as he is a natural man in the flesh, he CANNOT PLEASE GOD Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Man by nature cannot chose God and his response to God is enmity against Him, because he is spiritually dead to God, alienated from God

 

[brightfame52]

You skipped verse 40.

No I didnt, you avoiding Vs 39

 

[Roger316]

Ummm. Paul’s the same author for both. Not to mention the Lord is the same author of all Scripture.

I think you understood what I said.

Are you one of those we are only “mostly dead” guys?

The word "dead" has a range of different meanings depending on the context.

 

[Mem]

A "charagma" 5480 is a mark, an image formed; the word origin is from [charasso to sharpen to a point (akin to G1125 "written") through the idea of scratching]
1. a scratch or etching, i.e. stamp (as a badge of servitude). or sculpted figure (statue).

Etching the gospel into the image of Calvin is taking upon oneself the mark of Calvin, which sharpens the Gospel to a Calvin point. whether the name or the number, rather than sharpening Calvinism to a Gospel point.

 

[GWH]

Tulip magnifies the Glory of God, Unconditional Election is Gods Glory, Moses once asked of the Lord God show me thy Glory Ex 33:18-19

18 And he[Moses] said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19 And he[God] said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Paul was inspired to write this in when writing the Romans about the purpose of election, how God chose one over the other even before they were born to have done any good or evil Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

So Sovereign Election, Unconditional, s a Manifestation of Gods Glory, so despise it and scoff it you want !

MFW does not have a problem with tulip glorifying God as long as it glorifies divine omnilove as well as omnipotence--
which it does not. Tulipists need/ought to pray for the gift of both-and logic.

 

[GWH]

I think you understood what I said.


The word "dead" has a range of different meanings depending on the context.

Dead means physically dead like Lazarus was twice or else spiritually dead as A&E became when they sinned twice.

 

[brightfame52]

The expression "natural man" comes almost entirely from one passage written by Paul. Jesus never used this expression, nor do the original twelve disciples in their teachings.

Paul's writings are authoritative, the word of God, they have Christ/Gods authority because they are inspired by the Spirit of God. Peter wrote 2 Pet 3:15-16

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 ;As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[brightfame52]

MFW does not have a problem with tulip glorifying God as long as it glorifies divine omnilove as well as omnipotence--
which it does not. Tulipists need/ought to pray for the gift of both-and logic.

It does magnify the Love of God as it does His Mercy, its Sovereign, He loves who He will. and hates whom He wills

 

[Magenta]

I noticed that sometimes someone will disagree with me, but in their lengthy explanation it turns out they actually agree with me. It's as if they need to hear it in their own wording. Right?

Open theism is one of those fictional stories parents tell their children so they can sleep at night. It isn't true, but I think it comforts people.

I do tend to avoid lengthy explanations, although there are times when
they are necessary. Some people seem to do or be the opposite way LOL

Well we are all different and see things differently and I do not subscribe to
the cookie cutter Christianity I notice in FWers with their cardboard God.

Such as those saying God would not command something if it cannot be obeyed. The law was
given specifically to show man his sinful nature... added to act as a mirror that reveals our
inability to achieve God’s perfect righteousness. Its purpose is to make us conscious of sin and
drive us toward divine grace. Through the law comes the knowledge of sin, entering "so that the
offense might abound." FWers even deny this. The law was brought in so that the trespass might
increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more. Romans 5 v 20. I hope they learn this.

I do not consider you to be a FWer. I may not agree with everything you say but I do
recognize that your understanding is well above and beyond the FWers here on that
topic. Eh I thought we were in the other thread... so I have moved my response to here.

 

[HeIsHere]

This shows

I realize it brings Arminians comfort to believe that.

I am not Arminian, so that point is moot.

 

[HeIsHere]

When someone says “the penalty of sin is separation/dead,” they’re trying to make *dead* function as a synonym for *separated*, and then use that definition to support the Calvinist idea of inability. But Scripture doesn’t speak of sinners as *unable* to believe—it speaks of them as unwilling to believe. The problem is not incapacity but hardness of heart. That’s why the Bible consistently uses transformation language: a heart of stone must become a heart of flesh, the stubborn must be softened, the rebellious must be turned. These images describe moral resistance, not metaphysical inability. So while sin does alienate us from God, “dead” in passages like Ephesians 2 highlights the seriousness of our condition—not the removal of our responsibility. The call to believe the gospel is meaningful precisely because the issue is our unwillingness, not an inability that would make faith impossible.

Absolutely agree.
They cannot understand this though.
My concern was your addition of the concept of eternal punishment to the phrase.
It is not there in Ephesians.

 

[HeIsHere]

Notice the extreme arrogance of the Calvinism advocates.

You never hear anyone say Finneyism is the Gospel, or Billy Grahamism is the Gospel, or Lutheranism is the Gospel, or DL Moodyism is the Gospel, or Erwin Lutzerism is the Gospel, or any other theologian-ism is the Gospel.

It’s only “Calvinism is the Gospel” — which is equating one deeply flawed and murderous man’s system with the scriptures.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the Gospel.

Very true!
Tremendous arrogance displayed..... but typically a cover for profound insecurity internally.

 

[HeIsHere]

The expression "natural man" comes almost entirely from one passage written by Paul. Jesus never used this expression, nor do the original twelve disciples in their teachings.

Yes exactly, because of the audience, the Greeks, the Romans etc.,

 

[ShaunGutfeld777]

It seemed as if Martin Luther was initially stirred, by a real hunger for God. Unfortunately, he was eventually deceived, first by an evil anti-semetic spirit which drove him to kick them out of their homes, take possession of their lands and crops. After that, Luther he set his eyes on other independent Christian groups who were living in Germany such as the Mennonites and Anabaptists. Luther led mobs into their villages exterminating them by drowning and burning them alive. I have yet to find any evidence that Luther ever repented of his sins yet many Lutherans still defend him or at least they downplay his actions.

The Apostle John writing about this kind of thind said:
…14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that eternal life does not reside in a murderer.
(1 John 3:14-15)

Yeah, I had almost forgotten about Hitler having learned hatred for the Jews from Martin Luther after reading Luther's writings back when Hitler was a young impressionable man trying to find his way in life.

Luther's legacy includes his writings (doctrines of demons) contributing to the death of millions of people by enticing the Germans to despise and hate the Jews because Luther put racism in his writings.

 

[HeIsHere]

The expression "natural man" comes almost entirely from one passage written by Paul. Jesus never used this expression, nor do the original twelve disciples in their teachings.

The phrase appears in 1 Corinthians 2:14. Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. (1 Corinthians 2:14 ASV)

The Greek word translated "natural" is psychikos (ψυχικός). It comes from the word psyche, meaning "soul" or "natural life." It describes a person who lives according to ordinary human nature instead of being led by God's Spirit. The word itself does not mean that a person is incapable of choosing God or responding to Him. Those ideas come from later theological interpretations rather than from the word itself.

The same Greek word appears in the letter of Jude. These are they who make separations, sensual, having not the Spirit. (Jude 19 ASV) Here, "sensual" is the same Greek word, psychikos. Many modern translations render it as "worldly," "natural," or "unspiritual." In both places, the emphasis is on a person's present way of living, not on an unchangeable condition.

Jesus never described people as "natural men." Instead, He used simple language that everyone could understand. He spoke of those who hear His words and obey them, and those who hear His words and refuse to obey. He spoke of good trees and bad trees, sheep and goats, wise builders and foolish builders, and those who love light and those who love darkness. His teaching always places the responsibility on the person's response to God's call.

Jesus invited everyone to come to Him. Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.(Matthew 11:28 ASV) He also said, If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God. (John 7:17 ASV) Notice that Jesus says, "If anyone is willing." He appeals to the person's willingness to follow God's will.

When speaking to those who rejected Him, Jesus did not say they were unable to come because they were "natural men." Instead, He said, And ye will not come to me, that ye may have life. (John 5:40 ASV) The problem was not that they lacked the ability to respond, but that they refused to do so. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus continually calls people to repent, believe, follow Him, keep His commandments, and remain in His word. These commands assume that people are responsible for how they respond to God's invitation.

The expression "natural man" became much more prominent many centuries later through theological systems that developed after the New Testament was written. During the Protestant Reformation, theologians such as John Calvin built doctrines around this passage, teaching that fallen man is spiritually unable to respond to God unless God first regenerates him. However, this conclusion goes beyond what the expression itself says. The verse states that the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit because they are spiritually discerned, but it does not explicitly teach that a person is incapable of responding to God's call or of turning to Christ. This is all from Man and not God.

If we allow Jesus' own words to be our primary guide as it should always be, then the expression "natural man" should not become the foundation for understanding salvation. Jesus consistently presents God as calling people, inviting them, warning them, pleading with them, and holding them accountable for their response. He said, For many are called, but few chosen.(Matthew 22:14 ASV) The call is broad, but only those who answer it in faith and obedience become the chosen. Jesus' teaching is centered on God's invitation and man's responsibility to respond. Rather than dividing humanity into fixed categories, He continually urges every person to hear His voice, repent, believe, obey His words, and enter into life.

I have shown verses that clearly express that God does gives us a choice, it is written.

Thank you for taking the time to do this, you have tremendous patience... there have been several of us for years demonstrating in all the various ways that Calvinism is a false system, over and over again, just beware it will fall on deaf ears.

We know that they must pile onto the concept of the "natural man" the concept of "total nability" .. the more they defend TULIP it is quite evident how it really is a construct superimposed on scripture.

 

[Roger316]

I do tend to avoid lengthy explanations, although there are times when
they are necessary. Some people seem to do or be the opposite way LOL

Well we are all different and see things differently and I do not subscribe to
the cookie cutter Christianity I notice in FWers with their cardboard God.

Such as those saying God would not command something if it cannot be obeyed. The law was
given specifically to show man his sinful nature... added to act as a mirror that reveals our
inability to achieve God’s perfect righteousness. Its purpose is to make us conscious of sin and
drive us toward divine grace. Through the law comes the knowledge of sin, entering "so that the
offense might abound." FWers even deny this. The law was brought in so that the trespass might
increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more. Romans 5 v 20. I hope they learn this.

I do not consider you to be a FWer. I may not agree with everything you say but I do
recognize that your understanding is well above and beyond the FWers here on that
topic. Eh I thought we were in the other thread... so I have moved my response to here.

I fully appreciate something you said, which in my opinion, is very insightful. Our view of salvation is very much in line with our view of God. Thanks.

 

[GWH]

It does magnify the Love of God as it does His Mercy, its Sovereign, He loves who He will. and hates whom He wills

God hates those who demean His love and justness.
To say that tulip magnifies divine love and mercy is lunacy!
(I respected Rufus for admitting tulip does not do that.)

Tulipists who claim that need to pray for the gifts of sanity and truthfulness/honesty.