Calvinism is Gospel !

[brightfame52]

All humanity are sinners in need of God's salvation from mortality and immorality (Rom. 3:23),
and God provides every soul opportunity to be saved to heaven in Christ as revealed (Rom. 6:23).
God initiates; souls cooperate--or not (Deut. 30:19, Matt. 23:37).
Too easy/obvious for tulipists.

False teaching, non of those verses match your speech

 

[DeanM]

Too easy/obvious for tulipists

Not just the Tulips. A lot of people seem to overthink and twist to make complex what is easy to understand.

 

[HeIsHere]

Exceptions? I was replying to a post from Kroogz who had said "You are the special ones. We are scum.......Calvies in a nutshell." I was saying, that I have not seen anybody on Christian Chat who believes Calvinistic doctrines calling non-Calvinists "scum", or saying, "God chose me because I'm special." Are you saying that in your view, most Calvinists believe that non-Calvinists are scum, but there might bs some exceptions?

It is built into the soteriology, that is the way I take @Kroogz statement. We have people here that have made it clear God hates most of humanity.

What you believe about God will affect how you perceive others, it maybe under the surface but it reveals itself from time to time.

There were several here about 8 years ago, where it was very clear in their statements how they regarded non-TULIP people, but they were banned.

I do think they "Reformed" has been trying to change how they are perceived (and how they were perceived is based how they interacted with others) like I said John Piper has an entire article on it.

 

[Jon777]

Metanoia is very clearly defined in Greek literature and also how it used in scripture.

It literally means to to turn away from towards something new ... also sometimes stated as a change of mind.



You should also take note that according to the original language of Koinee Greek, which is a gendered language .... the gift is salvation and faith is not part of the gift because the gender does not agree.

From Baker’s New Testament Commentary
A. T. Robertson. Commenting on this passage in his Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. IV, p. 525, he states, “Grace is God's part, faith ours.” He adds that since in the original the demonstrative “this” (and this not of yourselves) is neuter and does not correspond with the gender of the word “faith,” which is feminine, it does not refer to the latter “but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part.” Even more clearly in A. T. Robertson, Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, p. 704, he states categorically, “In Eph_2:8 … there is no reference to διὰ πίστεως [through faith] in τοῦτο [this], but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before.”

Without any hesitancy I answer, Robertson, to whom the entire world of New Testament scholarship is heavily indebted, does not express himself felicitously in this instance. This is true first because in a context in which the apostle places such tremendous stress on the fact that from start to finish man owes his salvation to God, to him alone, it would have been very strange, indeed, for him to say, “Grace is God's part, faith ours.” True though it be that both the responsibility of believing and also its activity are ours, for God does not believe for us, nevertheless, in the present context (verses Eph_2:5-10) one rather expects emphasis on the fact that both in its initiation and in its continuation, faith is entirely dependent on God, and so is our complete salvation. Also, Robertson, a grammarian famous in his field, knew that in the original the demonstrative (this), though neuter, by no means always corresponds in gender with its antecedent. That he knew this is shown by the fact that on the indicated page of his Grammar (p. 704) he points out that “in general” the demonstrative “agrees with its substantive in gender and number.” When he says “in general,” he must mean, “not always but most of the time.” Hence, he should have considered more seriously the possibility that, in view of the context, the exception to the rule, an exception by no means rare, applies here. He should have made allowance for it. Finally, he should have justified the departure from the rule that unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise the antecedent should be looked for in the immediate vicinity of the pronoun or adjective that refers to it.

From the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges, on Eph. 2:8
The question is largely occasioned by the construction of the Greek, in which “that” (neuter) does not agree with “faith” (feminine).—Many great expositors, Calvin at the head of them, accordingly take “that” to refer to the main previous idea, and “through faith” to be a separate inserted thought. Alford, who takes this view, states the case for it briefly and well. Nevertheless we recommend the other explanation, and for the following simple reason: the phrase “and that” (lit., “and this”) is familiar in N.T. Greek to introduce an addition of thought, enforcing or heightening what has gone before. See 1Co_6:6; 1Co_6:8; “and that before the unbelievers;” “and that, your brethren;” Php_1:28; Heb_11:12, (A.V., “and him, &c.”). But if it here refers only to the general previous idea, gratuitous salvation, it is hard to see what new force of thought it adds to the words “by grace.” If on the other hand it refers to the last special statement, “through faith,” there is a real additional point in the assertion that even the act of believing is a gift of God; for thus precisely the one link in the process where the man might have thought he acted alone, and where therefore, in St Paul’s sense, he might claim to “boast,” is claimed for God. Let the clauses, “and that, not of you; God’s is the gift,” be taken as a parenthesis, and the point of the interpretation will be clear; while the Greek amply admits the arrangement.

That “faith” is a matter of Divine gift is clear from e. g. 2Co_4:13; Php_1:29. Not that a new faculty of trust is implanted, but gracious manifestations—of the soul’s need and the Saviour’s glory—prevail upon the will to choose to repose trust in the right Object. The “gift” of faith is but one phase of the Divine action which (Php_2:13) “worketh in us to will.” And it may be said to be one aspect of the “gift of repentance” (Act_5:31; 2Ti_2:25), for repentance is no mere preliminary to faith; it is the whole complex “change of mind” which includes faith.

 

[GWH]

False teaching, non of those verses match your speech

Says the one who teaches that the tulip heresy is the Gospel!

 

[HeIsHere]

From Baker’s New Testament Commentary
A. T. Robertson. Commenting on this passage in his Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. IV, p. 525, he states, “Grace is God's part, faith ours.” He adds that since in the original the demonstrative “this” (and this not of yourselves) is neuter and does not correspond with the gender of the word “faith,” which is feminine, it does not refer to the latter “but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part.” Even more clearly in A. T. Robertson, Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, p. 704, he states categorically, “In Eph_2:8 … there is no reference to διὰ πίστεως [through faith] in τοῦτο [this], but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before.”

Without any hesitancy I answer, Robertson, to whom the entire world of New Testament scholarship is heavily indebted, does not express himself felicitously in this instance. This is true first because in a context in which the apostle places such tremendous stress on the fact that from start to finish man owes his salvation to God, to him alone, it would have been very strange, indeed, for him to say, “Grace is God's part, faith ours.” True though it be that both the responsibility of believing and also its activity are ours, for God does not believe for us, nevertheless, in the present context (verses Eph_2:5-10) one rather expects emphasis on the fact that both in its initiation and in its continuation, faith is entirely dependent on God, and so is our complete salvation. Also, Robertson, a grammarian famous in his field, knew that in the original the demonstrative (this), though neuter, by no means always corresponds in gender with its antecedent. That he knew this is shown by the fact that on the indicated page of his Grammar (p. 704) he points out that “in general” the demonstrative “agrees with its substantive in gender and number.” When he says “in general,” he must mean, “not always but most of the time.” Hence, he should have considered more seriously the possibility that, in view of the context, the exception to the rule, an exception by no means rare, applies here. He should have made allowance for it. Finally, he should have justified the departure from the rule that unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise the antecedent should be looked for in the immediate vicinity of the pronoun or adjective that refers to it.

From the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges, on Eph. 2:8
The question is largely occasioned by the construction of the Greek, in which “that” (neuter) does not agree with “faith” (feminine).—Many great expositors, Calvin at the head of them, accordingly take “that” to refer to the main previous idea, and “through faith” to be a separate inserted thought. Alford, who takes this view, states the case for it briefly and well. Nevertheless we recommend the other explanation, and for the following simple reason: the phrase “and that” (lit., “and this”) is familiar in N.T. Greek to introduce an addition of thought, enforcing or heightening what has gone before. See 1Co_6:6; 1Co_6:8; “and that before the unbelievers;” “and that, your brethren;” Php_1:28; Heb_11:12, (A.V., “and him, &c.”). But if it here refers only to the general previous idea, gratuitous salvation, it is hard to see what new force of thought it adds to the words “by grace.” If on the other hand it refers to the last special statement, “through faith,” there is a real additional point in the assertion that even the act of believing is a gift of God; for thus precisely the one link in the process where the man might have thought he acted alone, and where therefore, in St Paul’s sense, he might claim to “boast,” is claimed for God. Let the clauses, “and that, not of you; God’s is the gift,” be taken as a parenthesis, and the point of the interpretation will be clear; while the Greek amply admits the arrangement.

That “faith” is a matter of Divine gift is clear from e. g. 2Co_4:13; Php_1:29. Not that a new faculty of trust is implanted, but gracious manifestations—of the soul’s need and the Saviour’s glory—prevail upon the will to choose to repose trust in the right Object. The “gift” of faith is but one phase of the Divine action which (Php_2:13) “worketh in us to will.” And it may be said to be one aspect of the “gift of repentance” (Act_5:31; 2Ti_2:25), for repentance is no mere preliminary to faith; it is the whole complex “change of mind” which includes faith.

How about referring to the scholars who repudiate this view a greater attention and avoid confirmation bias.

 

[Cameron143]

It is built into the soteriology, that is the way I take @Kroogz statement. We have people here that have made it clear God hates most of humanity.

What you believe about God will affect how you perceive others, it maybe under the surface but it reveals itself from time to time.

There were several here about 8 years ago, where it was very clear in their statements how they regarded non-TULIP people, but they were banned.

I do think they "Reformed" has been trying to change how they are perceived (and how they were perceived is based how they interacted with others) like I said John Piper has an entire article on it.

His statement was ridiculous and so is yours. People who believe reformed theology don't believe God hates most of humanity. They believe, just as any Christian should, that we are to love God and love others, and that the exercise of love may be what God uses to draw people to Himself. They have an intense desire for God to save the lost.

Stop lying about others and assigning false motives to their behavior.

 

[Jon777]

How about referring to the scholars who repudiate this view a greater attention and avoid confirmation bias.

So, it is my responsibility to present evidence for your argument? LOL You made the claim based on gender, and apparently you got it from A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures as presented above. I'll give you a Lutheran view on it.

From Commentary by Paul Kretzmann, a Lutheran scholar on Eph. 2:8
All this is a work of God's free grace, transmitted to us through the hand of faith; we are thus regenerated, justified, by faith. In our heart, which was spiritually dead, God has enkindled the flame of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. And this flame, just as soon as it sent up the first spark and began to glow, spread life throughout the formerly dead and cold members. Thus faith is the beginning of the new spiritual life. In this work of spiritual regeneration, of quickening to new life, all cooperation on the part of man is expressly and emphatically excluded. God's free gift and gracious present it is, not a reward for works performed by man by which he might have made himself worthy of being regenerated in the sight of God; no merit in us was considered, even had there been anything to point to in this respect, all boasting on the part of man is cut off absolutely. On our part we have not contributed even the slightest part toward our conversion, neither was it occasioned by any doing or conduct on our part. "That the glory of that salvation belongs wholly to God and in no degree to man, and that it has been so planned and so effected as to take from us all ground for boasting, is enforced on Paul's hearers again and again, in different connections, with anxious concern and utmost plainness of expression, Rom 3:17; 1Co 1:29; 1Co 4:7; Gal 6:14; Php 3:3."

 

[Komentaja]

It seems to me that Jesus's statement in John 10:29 can easily be understood as a promise of a future time. In fact, he says they will never perish, which logically implies they don't have it yet, since they all have perished. But they "have" it in the sense that it is their inheritance.

Think about it this way, we know that Eternal life is more -- much more-- than days without end. I mean, who would want to live forever if every day was just like today? In the coming age there will be no more sorrow, no more crying, no more tears, no more disappointments, no more pain, no more divorce, no more broken friendships, no more enemies.

The Bible also says things like "in the hope of eternal life" so it is talking about it in present and future tense.

The simple explanation is that eternal life is in Christ. So if you are in Christ, you have eternal life, if you are not, you do not. And obviously we while we are in Christ today don't ACTUALLY have immortality until the resurrection

 

[HeIsHere]

So, it is my responsibility to present evidence for your argument? LOL You made the claim based on gender, and apparently you got it from A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures as presented above. I'll give you a Lutheran view on it.

From Commentary by Paul Kretzmann, a Lutheran scholar on Eph. 2:8
All this is a work of God's free grace, transmitted to us through the hand of faith; we are thus regenerated, justified, by faith. In our heart, which was spiritually dead, God has enkindled the flame of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. And this flame, just as soon as it sent up the first spark and began to glow, spread life throughout the formerly dead and cold members. Thus faith is the beginning of the new spiritual life. In this work of spiritual regeneration, of quickening to new life, all cooperation on the part of man is expressly and emphatically excluded. God's free gift and gracious present it is, not a reward for works performed by man by which he might have made himself worthy of being regenerated in the sight of God; no merit in us was considered, even had there been anything to point to in this respect, all boasting on the part of man is cut off absolutely. On our part we have not contributed even the slightest part toward our conversion, neither was it occasioned by any doing or conduct on our part. "That the glory of that salvation belongs wholly to God and in no degree to man, and that it has been so planned and so effected as to take from us all ground for boasting, is enforced on Paul's hearers again and again, in different connections, with anxious concern and utmost plainness of expression, Rom 3:17; 1Co 1:29; 1Co 4:7; Gal 6:14; Php 3:3."

Well, if you want to refute my argument you should actual steel man it first.
That was my point.
Of course it includes the textual analysis but there is much more to be considered.

 

[HeIsHere]

His statement was ridiculous and so is yours. People who believe reformed theology don't believe God hates most of humanity. They believe, just as any Christian should, that we are to love God and love others, and that the exercise of love may be what God uses to draw people to Himself. They have an intense desire for God to save the lost.

Stop lying about others and assigning false motives to their behavior.

Were you here six - eight years ago?

Sure, the lost on the created for salvation list, I am not fooled by your selective narrative.

I am going to put you on ignore as in I will no longer respond to you and will try to avoid your posts., it is obvious defending your false soteriology is taking a terrible toll on you.

 

[Jon777]

Well, if you want to refute my argument you should actual steel man it first.
That was my point.
Of course it includes the textual analysis but there is much more to be considered.

In my studies I do consult good Methodist Arminians, and I do value them in many areas. But I find their arguments for free will to be very weak. But, in the spirit of fairness, I’ll quote from one I consult often and value him as scholarly.

Joesph Benson, an 18th century Methodist Arminian on Eph. 2:8
“For (to repeat the important truth before asserted) by grace are ye saved through faith — Grace, as signifying the free mercy, or unmerited goodness of God, without any respect to human worthiness, confers the glorious gift of salvation; and grace, in the other sense of the expression, namely, the influence of the Spirit, prepares us for the reception of the blessed gift, and conveys it to us; and faith in the Lord Jesus as our Redeemer and Saviour, our Governor and Judge, and in the truths and promises of his holy gospel, with an empty hand, and without any pretence to personal desert; faith, productive of unfeigned love and obedience, receives the heavenly blessing. And that not of yourselves — This refers to the whole preceding clause, and means, 1st, Your salvation is not of yourselves, is not of your own power, nor of your own merit; strictly speaking, you can neither save yourselves, nor deserve that God should save you; your salvation, in all its branches, present and eternal, is from God, to whom alone it belongs to enlighten, justify, sanctify, and glorify you, and it is from him as a free, undeserved gift. Just Song of Solomon , 2 d, Your faith, whereby you receive salvation, is not of yourselves, not of your own power, nor of your own merit; you can neither believe of yourselves, without supernatural light from the word and Spirit of truth, wisdom, and revelation; and divine grace inclining and enabling you to apply to and rely on Christ for salvation, and on the truths and promises of God through him; nor can you, by works done while you are yourselves in unbelief and unrenewed, deserve that God should give you faith. But your faith, as well as your salvation, is the gift of God; is of his operation, Col 2:12; from his light shining into your hearts, 2Co 4:6; and is from him as a free gift, asked indeed of him, and obtained from him, in and by prayer, but utterly unmerited on your part. “God, by the gracious influence of his Spirit, fixes our attention to the great objects of faith, subdues our prejudices against it, awakens holy affections in our souls, and, on the whole, enables us to believe, and to persevere in believing, till we receive the great end of our faith in the complete salvation of our souls.” — Doddridge. Not of works — Neither this faith, nor this salvation, is merited by, or is owing to, any works you ever performed, will or can perform, whether in obedience to the law of Moses, ceremonial or moral, or any other law whatever; much less is it merited by, or owing to, any works done previous to your conversion. Lest any man should boast — As if he had, by his own works of righteousness, procured salvation, and so should ascribe the glory of it to himself, rather than to God.”

Another Methodist Arminian you can read is Adam Clarke, and I'll give the link to his comments on Eph. 2:8, which are lengthy.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/acc/ephesians-2.html

Again, I value Adam Clarke on many topics, but he seems to say something in his comments on Eph. 2:8 that I find odd. He seems to be saying you can have the gift, or grace of faith, but still not be believing.

 

[Cameron143]

His statement was ridiculous and so is yours. People who believe reformed theology don't believe God hates most of humanity. They believe, just as any Christian should, that we are to love God and love others, and that the exercise of love may be what God uses to draw people to Himself. They have an intense desire for God to save the lost.

Stop lying about others and assigning false motives to their behavior.

Were you here six - eight years ago?

Sure, the lost on the created for salvation list, I am not fooled by your selective narrative.

I am going to put you on ignore as in I will no longer respond to you and will try to avoid your posts., it is obvious defending your false soteriology is taking a terrible toll on you.

No sooner than I say it, you manifest it. You have no self awareness.

 

[HeIsHere]

In my studies I do consult good Methodist Arminians, and I do value them in many areas. But I find their arguments for free will to be very weak. But, in the spirit of fairness, I’ll quote from one I consult often and value him as scholarly.

Yes I do the same when I have the time.
I prefer to find scholars who are not entrenched in either view, as in objective, but I will admit it is a very big challenge.

 

[Komentaja]

Not sure why the Good News is also hid when the "riff raff" are born dead, double blind and double deaf.

I mean hiding something from a blind person... God is really going the extra mile!!

Right on. Judicial hardening is meaningless if there is total depravity. I guess God REALLY gotta make sure no one gets saved!

 

[brightfame52]

Right on. Judicial hardening is meaningless if there is total depravity. I guess God REALLY gotta make sure no one gets saved!

Judicial blinding is God's judgment confirming you in your sins and unbelief, with added guilt of calling Him a liar for refusing His testimony of the Truth about His Son 1 Jn 5:10

10 ;He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Tulip Truths bear record of what Gods Son accomplished.

 

[brightfame52]

Says the one who teaches that the tulip heresy is the Gospel!

It is the Gospel, we will find out on Judgment day !

 

[PennEd]

His statement was ridiculous and so is yours. People who believe reformed theology don't believe God hates most of humanity. They believe, just as any Christian should, that we are to love God and love others, and that the exercise of love may be what God uses to draw people to Himself. They have an intense desire for God to save the lost.

Stop lying about others and assigning false motives to their behavior.

She constantly self projects.

 

[WayneNSO]

It is the Gospel, we will find out on Judgment day !

Are you a full 5 point Tulipist ? I've heard people say they are two point and three point etc - just wondering To me it doesn't make sense to not believe all 5 points if you're a Calvinist because they are connected.

 

[HeIsHere]

God hated the workers of iniquity also called the vessels of wrath who He made to fit them for destruction Rom 9