Saved by faith alone?

[mailmandan]

Do not play coy and do not twist my words.

I did not express the need for "flawless theology" nor "perfect theological knowledge".

How about this:

If good works are evidence of walking with God is walking with God evidence of salvation?

Yes. Walking with God is evidence of salvation and denotes a relationship with Him. In John 17:3, we read - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge.

 

[Lamar]

According to Calvinism, all those who are saved were already saved from the foundation of the world. What would they say when those very people apostatize? They were not truly saved which means there was a fault in God's predestination.

That's not how election works.

The elect and the non-elect cannot commit apostasy.

In the world of Calvinism apostasy does not exist.

The elect cannot refuse to follow and the non-elect cannot chose to follow.

It's really that simple.

apostasy​

1 an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith

2 abandonment of a previous loyalty

When someone who claims to be among the elect commits "apostasy" the answer is always that the person was unknowingly mistaken about his election.

 

[Lamar]

Yes. Walking with God is evidence of salvation and denotes a relationship with Him. In John 17:3, we read - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge.

Okay I take back the coy.

You are rather sly.

Stop changing the question.

I did not write was "walking with God evidence of salvation".

I wrote:

If good works are evidence of walking with God is walking with God evidence of salvation?

Did you really think someone would not notice that you took out the first clause of the question?

If you have no intention of answering the question just don't respond.

This is what most people here do.

This is how you tell the sheep from the goats.

 

[Lamar]

After passing the point of salvation?
It then depends.... Correct theology?

What does this mean?

 

[Lamar]

Yes, if you read Rom. 8, it speaks of walking in the Spirit which is nothing but walking with the Lord.

That's nice but that's not the question that was asked.

You are ignoring the first clause of the sentence.

Here is the question again:

If good works are evidence of walking with God is walking with God evidence of correct theology?

 

[mailmandan]

Okay I take back the coy.

You are rather sly.

What's with the accusations? I'm not trying to be coy or sly. I was not accusing you of expressing the need for flawless theology. I was simply making a point that walking with the Lord requires a relationship with the Lord and not perfect theological knowledge. You were the one who brought up theology.

Stop changing the question.

I did not write was "walking with God evidence of salvation".

I wrote:

If good works are evidence of walking with God is walking with God evidence of salvation?

If good works are evidence of walking with God (is not a question) is walking with God evidence of salvation? That is the question and I answered it.

Did you really think someone would not notice that you took out the first clause of the question?

It was not about taking it out. IT WASN'T A QUESTION TO ANSWER. You seem determined to get an indictment at all costs which is very telling.

If you have no intention of answering the question just don't respond.

I answered your question. Now stop with the cunning lawyer tactics.

This is what most people here do.

This is how you tell the sheep from the goats.

That judgment call is well above your paygrade.

 

[maximc]

How about some Bible references to support what you say? Also, how is it a choosing, if it involves everybody without exception? Also, Paul does not say that all were chosen, but only Christians availed themselves of that choice.

I was referring to Psa. 69:28 where people's names are requested to be blotted out from the book of the living. Also, in Rev. 3:5, Jesus promises not to blot out the names of those who overcome. If names can be blotted out, it means they were first written.

 

[maximc]

That's not how election works.

The elect and the non-elect cannot commit apostasy.

In the world of Calvinism apostasy does not exist.

The elect cannot refuse to follow and the non-elect cannot chose to follow.

It's really that simple.

apostasy​

1 an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith

2 abandonment of a previous loyalty

When someone who claims to be among the elect commits "apostasy" the answer is always that the person was unknowingly mistaken about his election.

Your last statement was an agreement to my statement.

 

[maximc]

That's nice but that's not the question that was asked.

You are ignoring the first clause of the sentence.

Here is the question again:

If good works are evidence of walking with God is walking with God evidence of correct theology?

the first part of the question implies, "if I consider this to be true, then....". To such a question, you will always answer to the latter part of the question. Anyway, I had already answered the first part of the question by quoting John 10:37-38.

 

[Cameron143]

We are not saved by faith. We are saved by grace. Grace is the exercise of God's power in/on/through an individual. Faith is the tool God employs.

If my faucet is leaking, I might use a wrench to fix it. No one would ever say that the wrench fixed the faucet. They would say that I fixed the faucet using a wrench.

In like manner, God saves making use of faith.

 

[PaulThomson]

It depends on which Biblical texts you favor.

Romans 10:13
For “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

That is one of my favorite verses.

I like that one too.
10:13 Πᾶς (every one) γὰρ (for) ὃς (who) ἂν (ever) ἐπικαλέσηται (aorist middle subjunctive, might call/start calling upon) τὸ ὄνομα (the name) κυρίου (Lord’s/a lord's) σωθήσεται (future indicative passive) shall be being saved).
10;13 For everyone who might ever call/start calling (at some point/s in time) upon the Lord’s name shall be being saved.

 

[Genez]

What does this mean?

You said....
Lamar said:
If good works are evidence of walking with the Lord then is walking with the Lord evidence of a correct theology?


Correct theology will have you walking correctly with the Lord.
But any man in his own mind can imagine that something is a good work, and think he is alright with the Lord.

Here is the problem we all face. Why we can not know (but can imagine we do) unless we have found genuine good theology.

Isaiah 55:8-9


“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

There's the rub!

Correct theology will show us how stupid we are if we take things personally.
That is why we must deny self and take up our cross if we are going to follow Him.



.​

 

[Lamar]

I answered your question. Now stop with the cunning lawyer tactics.

This was the question from post# 3040

"If good works are evidence of walking with God is walking with God evidence of salvation?"

This was your answer from post# 3041

"Yes. Walking with God is evidence of salvation and denotes a relationship with Him."

I did not ask was walking with God evidence of salvation?

You clearly ignored the "if good works are evidence of walking with God". The "if" is paramount to the question.

You cannot simply drop the first clause from the question and alter the question.

Of course walking with God is evidence of salvation but can that evidence of salvation be proven by our good works?

I think you knew this hence the way you non-answered the question.

 

[Lamar]

I was referring to Psa. 69:28 where people's names are requested to be blotted out from the book of the living. Also, in Rev. 3:5, Jesus promises not to blot out the names of those who overcome. If names can be blotted out, it means they were first written.

All who have lived are in the Book of Life. Whether the name stays or is blotted out is for us to decide not election.

 

[Lamar]

We are not saved by faith. We are saved by grace. Grace is the exercise of God's power in/on/through an individual. Faith is the tool God employs.

If my faucet is leaking, I might use a wrench to fix it. No one would ever say that the wrench fixed the faucet. They would say that I fixed the faucet using a wrench.

In like manner, God saves making use of faith.

Is this what we are, simply leaking faucets?

An object with no control over its defect?

To be repaired or thrown in the trash with no regard for our own wishes.

Is this what election is all about?

 

[Lamar]

the first part of the question implies, "if I consider this to be true, then....". To such a question, you will always answer to the latter part of the question. Anyway, I had already answered the first part of the question by quoting John 10:37-38.

Since when can you ignore half of a question?

Quoting John 10:37-38 does not answer the first clause of the question.

 

[maximc]

Since when can you ignore half of a question?

Quoting John 10:37-38 does not answer the first clause of the question.

John 10:37-38 addresses the question, "are good works an evidence of walking with God" by Jesus saying that good works demonstrate the fact that the Father is in me and I am in the Father. The phrase "Father is in me and I am in the Father" implies the union of Jesus and the Heavenly Father. So, the same case applies to us. When we walk with the Lord, "the Lord is in us and we are in the Lord" and the good works are an evident to that fact.

 

[mailmandan]

This was the question from post# 3040

"If good works are evidence of walking with God is walking with God evidence of salvation?"

This was your answer from post# 3041

"Yes. Walking with God is evidence of salvation and denotes a relationship with Him."

I did not ask was walking with God evidence of salvation?

You clearly ignored the "if good works are evidence of walking with God". The "if" is paramount to the question.

You cannot simply drop the first clause from the question and alter the question.

Of course walking with God is evidence of salvation but can that evidence of salvation be proven by our good works?

I think you knew this hence the way you non-answered the question.

In a different post I already stated that good works certainly do give evidence that we are walking with the Lord. Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Walking with God involves good works and good works (genuine good works) from a regenerate heart would be proof of salvation yet only God infallibly knows the hearts of all mankind. Even lost people who are "religious, but not right with God" can still accomplish good things at times which may be beneficial to others.

Wheat and tares look nearly identical in their early growth stages. This resemblance forms the basis of the Biblical parable the wheat and the tares. Now because their root systems intertwine, pulling the weeds early would destroy the wheat, highlighting the need to wait until full maturity to distinguish them.

 

[Inquisitor]

This is how you tell the sheep from the goats.

You can leave out comments like the one above.

 

[Genez]

Not everyone here is an eisegete. I think exegesis works well for forum members here who are willing to let biblical texts speak for themselves. Though many seem to prefer duelling proof-texts gleaned from their favourite ear-ticklers.

Sir if they want in depth exegesis?

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