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PennEd said:
Did Adam die physically or spiritually on the day he sinned?

Genesis 2:17​

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17 “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
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Both - they died spiritually that day - then 900 plus years later physically
 
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Jon777 said:
Wayne, there are other passages to consider on this question.

Indeed, I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me. (Ps 51:5, NRSV)

When Adam had lived one hundred thirty years, he became the father of a son in his likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth. (Gen 5:3, NRSV)

Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one can. (Job 14:4, NRSV)

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned— (Rom 5:12, NRSV)

All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. (Eph 2:3, NRSV)
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Another thing to consider is no doctrine should be formulated using the Book of Psalms alone.

As well, prior to Augustine the view of the Church Fathers (generally speaking) was that people we born not in spiritual connection (dead) with God, but Augustine brought in the idea that all mankind also bore the guilt of Adams' sin

Romans 5:12 is that the death came through Adam's sin, not that the damnable guilt being born from Adam, Augustine added that.
 
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HeIsHere said:
Another thing to consider is no doctrine should be formulated using the Book of Psalms alone.

As well, prior to Augustine the view of the Church Fathers (generally speaking) was that people we born not in spiritual connection (dead) with God, but Augustine brought in the idea that all mankind also bore the guilt of Adams' sin

Romans 5:12 is that the death came through Adam's sin, not that the damnable guilt being born from Adam, Augustine added that.
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That's was the post that brought me back here - I replied then stayed watching the thread thinking there would be a reply - No reply - so I was conned into coming back - so sneaky lol
 
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WayneNSO said:
That's was the post that brought me back here - I replied then stayed watching the thread thinking there would be a reply - No reply - so I was conned into coming back - so sneaky lol
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It could be days... people have different schedules, on the bright side, you can take a nice nap make up for the lost sleep since coming to Christian Chat. :D
 
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WayneNSO said:
But gods judgments on Adam and Eve says nothing about a spiritual condition only the physical
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The spiritual consequences of Adam's sin were evident very soon after his sin. He felt shame. This was never true before. And that shame led him to cover himself. He also felt fear. This was never true before. And fear led him to hide from God. Before, he would have met God and walked with Him.

To say that the consequences of sin were only physical is false. Adam's whole way of thinking and acting was altered. He looked to himself for understanding and his course of action. He no longer ran to God, but ran away. He no longer looked to God to cover him, but became self-sufficient.
 
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HeIsHere said:
Too funny..... just know you are a rare breed .....you will suffer lots...... you have both correct soteriology and correct eschatology..
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There's that word again - I thought I was well read but I had never heard of that word before you mentioned it :) lol
 
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HeIsHere said:
Perish, destruction are not about hell or being annihilated either, they are also terms about real world consequences for not believing in/trusting in the Good News of Christ Jesus.
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I would need to see it in context.
 
WayneNSO said:
Both - they died spiritually that day - then 900 plus years later physically
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Yes. That’s right.

So Seth, and every human ever born except Jesus, was born in his spirituality dead condition.


Jesus said “let the dead bury their own dead “

The guys doing the burying Jesus referred to as DEAD. Since physically dead can’t bury anyone, Jesus was speaking of them being spiritually dead.
 
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HeIsHere said:
Too funny..... just know you are a rare breed .....you will suffer lots...... you have both correct soteriology and correct eschatology..
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Talking of eschatology - I made a big mistake in my post on that 70 weeks thread - to my defence it was early hours for me :) But I spent all morning correcting myself on it. And I enjoyed doing it - so I think that means I am becoming addicted to this chat :O
 
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WayneNSO said:
Talking of eschatology - I made a big mistake in my post on that 70 weeks thread - to my defense it was early hours for me :) But I spent all morning correcting myself on it. And I enjoyed doing it - so I think that means I am becoming addicted to this chat :O
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I was just going to see how that thread is going.
Yes that tends to happen!!
 
PennEd said:
Yes. That’s right.

So Seth, and every human ever born except Jesus, was born in his spirituality dead condition.


Jesus said “let the dead bury their own dead “

The guys doing the burying Jesus referred to as DEAD. Since physically dead can’t bury anyone, Jesus was speaking of them being spiritually dead.
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I agree with your last point about the dead burying the dead but spiritual death or moral death whatever term you want to use was not passed on at Adam and Eves judgement .....

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages of sin is death - it is this physical death Adam brought to the human race.

All the judgements by God on Adam and Eve are physical curses, no spiritual, moral or free will curses, and no references to Adams children.
 
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Beyond me why people have made everything so complicated over the years. Scripture is simple and clear.


Faith.JPG
 
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Jon777 said:
People educated in biblical theology know the difference between “free agency” and “free will”.

In classical Christian theology (especially Reformed theology), the basic difference is:
  • Free agency: the capacity to make voluntary, self-determined choices according to one’s own nature and desires.
  • Free will (in the technical, historic sense): the further ability to choose equally between good and evil, including the power to choose God and spiritual good apart from effectual grace.
So:
  • All humans are free agents: they are not coerced from outside; they choose what they most want and are morally responsible for those choices.
  • But after the Fall, in Lutheran and Reformed/Augustinian theology, humans do not have free will in the stronger sense: their nature is so corrupted by sin that, apart from regeneration, they cannot choose God or truly spiritual good; they will, by necessity of their sinful nature, choose against God.
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Are you sure about your definitions? Sin is not the issue. We are sinners before and after being born again. So sin can't be the deciding factor.
 
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