Calvinism is Gospel !

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So your position is that God holds unborn fetuses, newborns, infants and young children to be personally guilty for the sin a distant ancestor of theirs named ADAM committed? Does this make any moral sense to you? God long ago refuted the idea that He judges people for the sin of their ancestors:

Ezekiel 18:2-4
“What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the teeth of the children are set on edge’? As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. Behold, every soul belongs to Me; both father and son are Mine. The SOUL WHO SINS IS THE ONE WHO WILL DIE.
God goes into even more detail on this subject in
verses 19-20

Ezekiel 18:19-20
Yet you may ask, ‘Why shouldn’t the son bear the iniquity of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right, carefully observing all My statutes, he will surely live. The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.

Now let us look at Psalm 51 which, we must remember, was written after David had committed adultery with Bathsheba and murdered her husband. As soon as the true nature of David's sin was exposed by Nathan's parable of the pet lamb Davis cried out
"I have sinned"
Following that, he began to see how deep the influence of sin was in him which prompted him to say:
5 Behold, in iniquity I was brought forth, and in sin my mother conceived me.
Taken at face value, this verse seems to be saying more about his MOTHER than David himself. Nevertheless, I do not think David was trying to shift the blame to his mother, his family or the culture he grew up in. To do so would NOT have been taking responsibility for HIS OWN SIN It would have, instead, been an attempt to deflect blame away from himself. What David was seeing was that his connection to sin went much deeper than the sin he committed with Bathsheba. David was seeing that, from his earliest origins, he had lived among people who sinned in a race that habitually sinned

Augustine invented a theological construct to define sin for a sentient creature (infants and children) who the Bible says are innocent. He did this specifically to justify the Catholic practice of infant baptism. In Augustine's time an infant who was not baptized would never be able to enter the eternal Kingdom.
"Your response relies heavily on historical deflections and a fundamental misunderstanding of Biblical covenants. Let’s look directly at where your arguments collapse under the weight of Scripture:

1. The Federal Headship of Adam vs. Ezekiel 18

You attempt to use Ezekiel 18 to deny original guilt and total depravity from birth. In doing so, you confuse individual civil justice under the Mosaic Law with Federal Headship under the Covenant of Works. Ezekiel 18 teaches that an earthly judge should not execute a son for his father’s crimes. It does not erase the legal ruin of the human race in Adam.

If your interpretation of Ezekiel 18 were correct, you would have to throw out the entire fifth chapter of Romans. Paul completely shuts down your theory in Romans 5:12-19:
  • “By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.” (v. 12)
  • Through the offence of one many be dead. (v. 15)
  • “The judgment was by one to condemnation.” (v. 16)
  • By one man's disobedience many were made sinners.” (v. 19)
You ask if it makes moral sense that God holds humanity legally guilty in Adam. The absolute sovereign God of Scripture does not ask for our standard of morality; He sets it. If you reject the legal reality that the many were ruined unconditionally by the first Adam, you simultaneously destroy the legal reality that the many are justified unconditionally by the Second Adam, Christ (Rom 5:18-19). You cannot have a substitutionary Gospel without the principle of Federal Representation.

2. The Distortion of Psalm 51:5

Your attempt to twist Psalm 51:5 into a statement about David’s mother or the 'culture' he lived in is completely unscriptural. David does not blame his environment. He is performing deep self-examination, tracing his wicked actions back to his very origin. He confesses: “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. The pollution was in his very substance from conception. Job asks the same rhetorical question: “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one” (Job 14:4). An unclean nature can only produce an unclean infant.

3. The 'Augustine' Diversion

Blaming Augustine, Gnosticism, or Martin Luther is a classic smoke screen used when the text of Scripture becomes too heavy to carry.
I do not stand on Augustine; I stand on the plain declarations of the Word of God.
  • It was not Augustine, but Jeremiah who said, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jer 17:9).

  • It was not Augustine, but Paul who stated that the natural man “cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor 2:14), and that the carnal mind “is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be (Rom 8:7).

  • It was not Augustine, but Jesus Christ Himself who declared, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (John 6:44).
Total Inability is a structural biblical truth, not a 5th-century invention.

4. The Rich Young Ruler and the Verdict of 'Impossible'

Finally, you bring up the Rich Young Ruler to claim that surrendering to Christ is 'not really impossible' for the natural man. You could not have picked a worse example to support your case.

When the Rich Young Ruler walked away in his total inability, the disciples asked, “Who then can be saved?” Look closely at Jesus’ direct answer to them: “With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible” (Matt 19:26).

You claim it was possible for the man; Jesus explicitly stated it was impossible for man. The natural man will always choose his idols over Christ because he is a slave to his corrupt nature, until and unless God sovereignly replaces his heart of stone with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26).

The Gospel is indeed the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes (Rom 1:16), but Scripture is uniform: only those who are sovereignly quickened from spiritual death will ever believe (Eph 2:1-5, Acts 13:48). You are fighting against the plain words of Christ."


 
So here is some refreshing water in the middle of the battle for your faith and your understanding. The intro is over at
4:48 and Dr. Heiser speaks until 46:18, almost the end.


The way he leads into faith leading to salvation through the GRACE (target/trigger word sorry not sorry) of God is really a beautiful presentation of the truth of scripture that I don't apologize to anyone for sharing. It's all there in scripture but we do not all
have the gift of seeing/understanding so when someone like Dr Heiser teaches and illustrates so clearly from our Bibles, we
do well to listen and let a little light switch in our understanding be turned on.

Dr Heiser passed away a few years back but there is a treasure trove of his teaching online if anyone wants to listen to more.

ps: while I would not call the video 'mindblowing' (it may be to some) it certainly does show a pattern for digging into scripture and understanding with the guidance of the Holy Spirit :)


Yup... Not everything Dr. Heiser said I agree with completely, but He is definitely a prophet in his own way.

A Biblical Scholar who is teaching about the supernatural, unseen realm of The Bible..

It is THE MISSING PIECE to connect the dots, and it brings The Word to life..

Without this missing link, it is impossible to TRULY understand The Bible.

Because The LORD God is not only speaking to us, mankind.. But He is also speaking to 'them'.. Our enemies and adversaries.

You a wise one @pinebeach !
 
That is from 2 Tim. 2:20-21. verse 21 says, "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.". So, whether being honorable to dishonorable is not predestination, but through free will. Secondly, Rom. 9:20-21 is about God sovereignly deciding the formation of the nation of Israel without anyone's consent. It is not about salvation.
Damn.. "Every soul belongs to Me, both Father and Son"..

Who else can make such a claim except God Almighty, The Most High?

The LORD's swag is 10000000000000000000000000000000%
 
So here is some refreshing water in the middle of the battle for your faith and your understanding. The intro is over at
4:48 and Dr. Heiser speaks until 46:18, almost the end.


The way he leads into faith leading to salvation through the GRACE (target/trigger word sorry not sorry) of God is really a beautiful presentation of the truth of scripture that I don't apologize to anyone for sharing. It's all there in scripture but we do not all
have the gift of seeing/understanding so when someone like Dr Heiser teaches and illustrates so clearly from our Bibles, we
do well to listen and let a little light switch in our understanding be turned on.

Dr Heiser passed away a few years back but there is a treasure trove of his teaching online if anyone wants to listen to more.

ps: while I would not call the video 'mindblowing' (it may be to some) it certainly does show a pattern for digging into scripture and understanding with the guidance of the Holy Spirit :)


With all due respect, Dr. Mike Heiser's theology is bad. He says that as long as you know what Jesus did for you on the cross of calvary and believe that he took your place of punishment, you are good. He says that Jesus did not die while we were in the process of doing something good, but he died when we were wicked being his enemies. This argument is good if you say that God does not look at our merit to be justified in him. But, after being justified, we have to go through the process of sanctification which he does not address. All the fuss and fights we are having on the doctrine is because we need to be sanctified as per the Truth. People who want to cop out of this sanctification process will hold on to justification and say that that is enough. We don't need to do anything else.

He is using the example of Naáman and the woman of Zarephath to say that all we need to have to hold on to our allegiance with our God. Nothing else is required. In the case of Naaman and the woman of Zarephath, they did not have to go through the sanctification process because they were gentiles. Using their example and applying it over us is absurd.

Rom. 2:12 says, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law". When God judges the gentiles, he does it based on their conscience, but he judges us, he does it based on the law given to us. This way, Dr. Mike Heiser misled that Mormon as well as the person who wrote him an email regarding divorce and remarriage.
 
Damn.. "Every soul belongs to Me, both Father and Son"..

Who else can make such a claim except God Almighty, The Most High?

The LORD's swag is 10000000000000000000000000000000%
The quote you are using from Ezk. 18:4 is about judgment. He very clearly says, "the soul that sinneth shall die". Therefore, damnation is not because of predestination. It is because of SIN.
 
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The quote you are using from Ezk. 18:4 is about judgment. He very clearly says, "the soul that sinneth shall die". Therefore, damnation is not because of predestination. It is because of SIN.
I know, but its The LORD GOD .. His Words, send chills down my spine..

Before I became a believer, one of the ones that really got me was from Psalms..

"If I was hungry, I would not tell thee.. "

I sat down and taught about it.. All of us, including animals cry in hunger.. complain, get grumpy..

Who else could make a claim like this but God

Powerful, powerful stuff from the source of all power = THE LORD GOD.
 
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The quote you are using from Ezk. 18:4 is about judgment. He very clearly says, "the soul that sinneth shall die". Therefore, damnation is not because of predestination. It is because of SIN.
I wouldn't say I DONT believe in pre-destination, but I believe it can be lost..

Example :

(Jude 1:5) I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
 
I wouldn't say I DONT believe in pre-destination, but I believe it can be lost..

Example :

(Jude 1:5) I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
If a predestined person can be lost, then everyone is predestined, and that is the Truth. Everyone is predestined to be saved, but because of unbelief, people lose their salvation.
 
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If a predestined person can be lost, then everyone is predestined, and that is the Truth. Everyone is predestined to be saved, but because of unbelief, people lose their salvation.
Well a good example I like to compare it is in Revelation :

(Revelation 3:5) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Which implies that EVERYONE IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, But you CAN BE BLOTTED OUT.

Also, I'm agreeing with you. I figured I have to make clarify this, due to the amount of fools that be lurking.. :ROFL:
 
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That is from 2 Tim. 2:20-21. verse 21 says, "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.". So, whether being honorable to dishonorable is not predestination, but through free will. Secondly, Rom. 9:20-21 is about God sovereignly deciding the formation of the nation of Israel without anyone's consent. It is not about salvation.
Romans 9 speaks of vessels of dishonor Rom 9:21

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
The word dishonour is atimia:


  1. dishonour, ignominy, disgrace

When Jesus returns we have a resurrection of the just and unjust. Daniel writes Dan 12:2

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
'
The vessels of dishonor in Rom 9:21 and them awaking to everlasting shame in Dan 12:2 are the same
 
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If a predestined person can be lost, then everyone is predestined, and that is the Truth. Everyone is predestined to be saved, but because of unbelief, people lose their salvation.
"Your argument creates a contradiction by defining 'predestined' as a goal that can be lost. Proorizō (predestinate) implies an immutable decree. The Bible's 'Golden Chain' (Romans 8:29-30) shows a perfect, unbroken link from predestination to glorification. If anyone predestined is lost, this promise is false. Furthermore, Ephesians 1:11 confirms God effectively secures salvation according to His will, not human choices. Your view makes human unbelief stronger than God's plan."
 
"Your argument creates a contradiction by defining 'predestined' as a goal that can be lost. Proorizō (predestinate) implies an immutable decree. The Bible's 'Golden Chain' (Romans 8:29-30) shows a perfect, unbroken link from predestination to glorification. If anyone predestined is lost, this promise is false. Furthermore, Ephesians 1:11 confirms God effectively secures salvation according to His will, not human choices. Your view makes human unbelief stronger than God's plan."
How do you explain this then?

Since they were made ANGELS. Isn't that a step above pre-destination?

(2 Peter 2:4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.
 
Romans 9 speaks of vessels of dishonor Rom 9:21

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
The word dishonour is atimia:


  1. dishonour, ignominy, disgrace

When Jesus returns we have a resurrection of the just and unjust. Daniel writes Dan 12:2

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
'
The vessels of dishonor in Rom 9:21 and them awaking to everlasting shame in Dan 12:2 are the same
I'm sorry. Rom. 9 is not about salvation. It is about God using his sovereign power to build the nation of Israel without taking anyone's consent. First he chooses Abraham. Then he chooses Isaac over Ishmael. Then he chooses Jacob over Esau. Then he chooses Pharaoh to redeem his people from Egypt. It is at this point, God says that Pharaoh is the vessel of dishonor and Israel is the vessel of honor. By saying this, he is saying that he unilaterally decides how to build the nation of Israel.
 
How do you explain this then?

Since they were made ANGELS. Isn't that a step above pre-destination?

(2 Peter 2:4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.
There are elect angels...1 Timothy 5:21.
 
"Your argument creates a contradiction by defining 'predestined' as a goal that can be lost. Proorizō (predestinate) implies an immutable decree. The Bible's 'Golden Chain' (Romans 8:29-30) shows a perfect, unbroken link from predestination to glorification. If anyone predestined is lost, this promise is false. Furthermore, Ephesians 1:11 confirms God effectively secures salvation according to His will, not human choices. Your view makes human unbelief stronger than God's plan."
You are not able to understand my point is because according to your definition, predestination means pre-determination. According to my definition, predestination means "to be fore-ordained". What do I mean by this? Let me give you an illustration. Let us say I reserved a certain amount of money for my child to get educated as much as he wants to. That is called "fore-ordaining". But, whether my child takes the fullest advantage of that or not is left to him/her. That is what predestination means. God has fore-ordained us to be transformed into the image of Christ, but whether or not we take full advantage of that grace is left to us. How should we take advantage of his grace? By spending time in the presence of the Lord as much as possible. This is how he transforms us in the image of Christ.
 
You are not able to understand my point is because according to your definition, predestination means pre-determination. According to my definition, predestination means "to be fore-ordained". What do I mean by this? Let me give you an illustration. Let us say I reserved a certain amount of money for my child to get educated as much as he wants to. That is called "fore-ordaining". But, whether my child takes the fullest advantage of that or not is left to him/her. That is what predestination means. God has fore-ordained us to be transformed into the image of Christ, but whether or not we take full advantage of that grace is left to us. How should we take advantage of his grace? By spending time in the presence of the Lord as much as possible. This is how he transforms us in the image of Christ.
"Your argument attempts to escape a logical contradiction by inventing a artificial distinction between 'fore-ordained' and 'pre-determined.' Unfortunately, the Greek text of Scripture leaves no room for your definition.

1. The True Meaning of Proorizō


The Holy Spirit inspired the Greek word proorizō for predestination (Rom 8:29, Eph 1:11). It comes from pro (before) and horizō (to set a boundary, decree, or determine). It literally means to determine a fixed destination beforehand.

We see its absolute, pre-determining power in Acts 4:27-28, where the early church prayed that Herod, Pilate, and the Gentiles gathered together to do whatever God's hand and counsel 'determined before (proorizō) to be done.' God did not merely 'fore-ordain' a possibility of a crucifixion and leave it up to Pilate's free will to take advantage of it; He immutably pre-determined the exact outcome.

2. The Error of Your Financial Analogy

Your analogy of a father setting aside an education fund completely misrepresents biblical grace. You are arguing that God sets up a possibility of salvation, but human choice is the ultimate deciding factor that activates it. This turns salvation into a work of man's will, directly contradicting Romans 9:16: 'So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.'

Furthermore, Scripture declares that man by nature is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1). A dead man has no capacity to 'spend time in the presence of the Lord' to take advantage of a fund. God's predestinating grace does not just set aside a passive benefit; it sovereignly quickens the dead soul, giving them a new heart that willingly and effectively runs after Christ (Ezekiel 36:26, Phil 2:13).

3. The Golden Chain Cannot Be Broken

You claim God fore-ordains us to be transformed, but leaves it to us to fullfill it. If that were true, Romans 8:30 would say, 'whom he did predestinate, them he offered justification to if they take advantage of it.'

But Paul uses absolute, unbroken verbs: 'whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.'

There are no dropouts in God's decree. Every single individual who is predestined is legally and infallibly guaranteed to be glorified. By making the final outcome dependent on human cooperation, you don't just change the definition of predestination—you break the golden chain of God’s unchanging promise."


 
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Wow... that is borderline heresy. Are you actually trying to subvert one of God's attributes? Do you not understand His eternal essence? That which "is" eternal cannot change.
Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; Neither the son of man, that he should change his mind: Hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind.
Mal. 3:6a For I the LORD cannot change
In every instance where God states that his mind cannot change, the context is his long term plans for the nation of Israel. Every one. Maybe God has chosen to deal with man in such a manner that he invites man into a relationship with him, and that relationship can be influenced through prayer and obedience to his word. Can you imagine God being reachable and touchable with our prayers? His word?
 
None of that is true because it's all based on your own private opinion, and not Gods Word.

God does not change His mind. The bible doctrines of divine immutability (God cannot and does not change) and divine omniscience (God knows all things past, present, and future perfectly). Because God’s eternal plan, known as His decree, is perfect and based on His absolute wisdom, He never needs to reconsider or alter it.

The Bible frequently uses human terms to describe God's actions so that we can understand them from a human perspective. Descriptions of God "relenting" or "changing His mind" illustrate His responsiveness to changing human conditions—specifically, His willingness to withhold judgment when humans genuinely repent.


When God announces a judgment but then relents upon repentance, it reflects a consistent aspect of His character: He is a just God who is also merciful. The warnings are warnings of a consequence that are averted when the people change their behaviour.

Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfil?


Prayer does not give God new information or convince Him to change His mind. Instead, God uses prayer as a tool to align human hearts with His eternal purposes and to invite believers into His active will.
See post #4,098

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Let me post again: and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

This is not some "ism", but absolute truth from God's word. You may not like it. It may backfire on your whole reformed thinking, but it is true.
 
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There are elect angels...1 Timothy 5:21.
Christ is God's elect. Was Christ elected for salvation? The context of election is never about salvation, but service. The first mention principle gives us a working definition of the word "elect".

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
 
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