Doesn't Living Like the Devil After Being Saved Disprove Once Saved Always Saved?

[Musicmaster]

How does one reconcile “once saved, always saved” with cases where, for example, a pastor, religious leader of some sort or even a layman acquaintance of yours lives in open sin and even claims God sanctioned their ungodly relationship.

None of us, as humans, can definitively know another person’s salvation status. Salvation isn't evidenced by roles like pastor or seminary graduate but solely by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Even saved individuals, including the Apostle Paul, struggle with sin due to the sin nature; a malady that not one of us can claim to have overcome. See Romans 7:15, 17, and 24. See also 1 Corinthians 5:1–5, which shows to us that a brother can commit grievous sin and should be disciplined (put out of the assembly) rather than presumed lost, as is the devilish practice of some.

In other words, the practical response to seeing someone err is not to conclude they lost salvation, but that we should all pursue restoration and ensure they hear the gospel truth, erring on the side of sharing gospel truth with everyone, without offense, confirming they understand and believe the gospel of grace and the necessity for living a holy life in Christ Jesus.

The sole means of salvation is faith in what the Lord Jesus Christ did. Self-righteousness and reliance on religious status are insufficient and can leave even prominent religious figures unsaved.

MM

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

How does one reconcile “once saved, always saved” with cases where, for example, a pastor, religious leader of some sort or even a layman acquaintance of yours lives in open sin and even claims God sanctioned their ungodly relationship.

None of us, as humans, can definitively know another person’s salvation status. Salvation isn't evidenced by roles like pastor or seminary graduate but solely by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Even saved individuals, including the Apostle Paul, struggle with sin due to the sin nature; a malady that not one of us can claim to have overcome. See Romans 7:15, 17, and 24. See also 1 Corinthians 5:1–5, which shows to us that a brother can commit grievous sin and should be disciplined (put out of the assembly) rather than presumed lost, as is the devilish practice of some.

In other words, the practical response to seeing someone err is not to conclude they lost salvation, but that we should all pursue restoration and ensure they hear the gospel truth, erring on the side of sharing gospel truth with everyone, without offense, confirming they understand and believe the gospel of grace and the necessity for living a holy life in Christ Jesus.

The sole means of salvation is faith in what the Lord Jesus Christ did. Self-righteousness and reliance on religious status are insufficient and can leave even prominent religious figures unsaved.

MM

I've heard some claim that the gift of everlasting life was conditional upon works until death. A few I got to know and oh so surprised to see how carnal a "Christian" they were.
Their churches must've thought those "men of god' were perfect.
They taught that there's no such thing as a "carnal Christian," yet seemed like those white washed tombs Jesus pointed out.

The Bible clearly gives the good, the bad and the ugly to show that the issue of salvation is Christ and HIM crucified.

After salvation there are those letters we call Epistles that teach us to crucify the flesh, walk in the Spirit, deny ungodliness, grow in knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and many other things. It's going to take a lifetime of spiritual growth now that I am already saved.....

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.
Titus 3:5

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Which of you preachers is the Good, the Bad and the Ugly?

 

[Aussie52]

I have no problem with those who hold to OSAS who live holy lives. But to those who hold to OSAS who live carelessly, worldly, ungodly lives, I say-WATCH OUT!

 

[awelight]

How does one reconcile “once saved, always saved” with cases where, for example, a pastor, religious leader of some sort or even a layman acquaintance of yours lives in open sin and even claims God sanctioned their ungodly relationship.

None of us, as humans, can definitively know another person’s salvation status. Salvation isn't evidenced by roles like pastor or seminary graduate but solely by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Even saved individuals, including the Apostle Paul, struggle with sin due to the sin nature; a malady that not one of us can claim to have overcome. See Romans 7:15, 17, and 24. See also 1 Corinthians 5:1–5, which shows to us that a brother can commit grievous sin and should be disciplined (put out of the assembly) rather than presumed lost, as is the devilish practice of some.

In other words, the practical response to seeing someone err is not to conclude they lost salvation, but that we should all pursue restoration and ensure they hear the gospel truth, erring on the side of sharing gospel truth with everyone, without offense, confirming they understand and believe the gospel of grace and the necessity for living a holy life in Christ Jesus.

The sole means of salvation is faith in what the Lord Jesus Christ did. Self-righteousness and reliance on religious status are insufficient and can leave even prominent religious figures unsaved.

MM

Going by the caption of this post -
How does one reconcile “once saved, always saved” with cases where, for example, a pastor, religious leader of some sort or even a layman acquaintance of yours lives in open sin and even claims God sanctioned their ungodly relationship.

Obviously, anyone who could live like the devil or do as you suggest here - has never known God. The Bible teaches OSAS but when you see someone fall away from the faith, it proves their conversion was false. That one deceived themselves.

If a true believer sins, (you suggested err - don't soften sin - sin is sin). This can and does happen because of the sin nature that is still in the flesh. One should guide that believer back into the way. This is not the same thing as apostatizing.

 

[GWH]

How does one reconcile “once saved, always saved” with cases where, for example, a pastor, religious leader of some sort or even a layman acquaintance of yours lives in open sin and even claims God sanctioned their ungodly relationship.

None of us, as humans, can definitively know another person’s salvation status. Salvation isn't evidenced by roles like pastor or seminary graduate but solely by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Even saved individuals, including the Apostle Paul, struggle with sin due to the sin nature; a malady that not one of us can claim to have overcome. See Romans 7:15, 17, and 24. See also 1 Corinthians 5:1–5, which shows to us that a brother can commit grievous sin and should be disciplined (put out of the assembly) rather than presumed lost, as is the devilish practice of some.

In other words, the practical response to seeing someone err is not to conclude they lost salvation, but that we should all pursue restoration and ensure they hear the gospel truth, erring on the side of sharing gospel truth with everyone, without offense, confirming they understand and believe the gospel of grace and the necessity for living a holy life in Christ Jesus.

The sole means of salvation is faith in what the Lord Jesus Christ did. Self-righteousness and reliance on religious status are insufficient and can leave even prominent religious figures unsaved.

MM

No one achieves moral perfection in this life (Phil. 3:12), but no one who lacks divine love will reap eternal life with God (Gal. 6:7-8). Thus, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (Phil. 3:12-16),
b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1Cor. 3:1-3, Eph. 4:11-15)
c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1Cor. 6:9-11, Eph. 5:8-9), or
d. a pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, 1John 2:19), who may affirm morality while rejecting its divine rationale.
e. an apostate or heretic (1John 2:19, Heb. 6:4-6), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1Tim. 1:19-20).
f. An atheist, who may imitate divine love without glorifying the One whose power makes it a golden rule rather than merely a pyrite suggestion.

Paul listed some sins he implied genuine Christians would not typically commit (in 1Cor. 6:9-10), saying: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” Apparently, although a new Christian might backslide and commit such sins occasionally, it is inconceivable (because antithetical to NT teaching) that a mature Christian would commit them so typically that the person could be classified as an adulterer, for example. Atheists might try to practice the “Golden Rule”, but the key issue for them on judgment day will be explaining what good reason they had for rejecting God rather than glorifying Him as the One who determines what is good/golden.

Sinners can overcome selfishness only by becoming one with Christ via faith in Him/God as Lord and thereby sharing His goodness because of union with His/God’s Holy Spirit. This spiritual union is denoted by references to those who have saving faith as children of God the Father (Rom. 8:14-16). This is why Christianity is a relationship with God motivated by gratitude for God’s grace (Psa. 100, Eph. 2:4-8) rather than a legalistic religion of working to merit God’s mercy because of fear of punishment.

The evidence of saving faith or satisfying GRFS is working faith, love or helping humanity (John 13:35). Disciples of Jesus (or Believers) tend to love and help others, not by virtue of their own goodness, but because they are moved or motivated by the loving Spirit of the Lord. Christians love everyone by reflecting God’s love (Matt. 5:44&48, 1Tim. 2:3-4, Rom. 5:5-8 & 1John 4:7-19). Humans can never become good enough to earn or merit salvation as a reward for right behavior. A person cannot be good by doing good. Those who try to attain heaven by imitating Christ-like behavior without accepting Christ’s Lordship and atonement do not merely fall short (Rom. 3:23) but actually go in the opposite direction (Gal. 5:4), so we should cooperate with God’s Way.

Someone who does not hunger and thirst after righteousness (Matt. 5:6) and LGW (Psa. 119:9) needs to reevaluate the sincerity of his/her profession of faith in the Lord. As Paul says (in 2Cor. 13:5), “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith.” The spiritual beauty of God’s truth is as awe-inspiring or attractive as the physical beauty of God’s world for one who has the Spirit/mind of Christ (1Cor. 2:12-16).

 

[timf]

Paul writes the Corinthians to judge each other by their behavior. This is perhaps because no one can see inside someone to see if they have saving faith. Paul exhorts the Galatians to choose to walk by the Spirit so that they can stop walking by the flesh. It seems to be up to a saved Christian to exercise that choice.

 

[tourist]

Those that are truly born-again will be living like the devil. The bible states that Jesus will not lose a single one that the Father has trusted in his care. OSAS.

 

[GWH]

No one achieves moral perfection in this life (Phil. 3:12), but no one who lacks divine love will reap eternal life with God (Gal. 6:7-8). Thus, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (Phil. 3:12-16),
b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1Cor. 3:1-3, Eph. 4:11-15)
c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1Cor. 6:9-11, Eph. 5:8-9), or
d. a pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, 1John 2:19), who may affirm morality while rejecting its divine rationale.
e. an apostate or heretic (1John 2:19, Heb. 6:4-6), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1Tim. 1:19-20).
f. An atheist, who may imitate divine love without glorifying the One whose power makes it a golden rule rather than merely a pyrite suggestion.

Paul listed some sins he implied genuine Christians would not typically commit (in 1Cor. 6:9-10), saying: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” Apparently, although a new Christian might backslide and commit such sins occasionally, it is inconceivable (because antithetical to NT teaching) that a mature Christian would commit them so typically that the person could be classified as an adulterer, for example. Atheists might try to practice the “Golden Rule”, but the key issue for them on judgment day will be explaining what good reason they had for rejecting God rather than glorifying Him as the One who determines what is good/golden.

Sinners can overcome selfishness only by becoming one with Christ via faith in Him/God as Lord and thereby sharing His goodness because of union with His/God’s Holy Spirit. This spiritual union is denoted by references to those who have saving faith as children of God the Father (Rom. 8:14-16). This is why Christianity is a relationship with God motivated by gratitude for God’s grace (Psa. 100, Eph. 2:4-8) rather than a legalistic religion of working to merit God’s mercy because of fear of punishment.

The evidence of saving faith or satisfying GRFS is working faith, love or helping humanity (John 13:35). Disciples of Jesus (or Believers) tend to love and help others, not by virtue of their own goodness, but because they are moved or motivated by the loving Spirit of the Lord. Christians love everyone by reflecting God’s love (Matt. 5:44&48, 1Tim. 2:3-4, Rom. 5:5-8 & 1John 4:7-19). Humans can never become good enough to earn or merit salvation as a reward for right behavior. A person cannot be good by doing good. Those who try to attain heaven by imitating Christ-like behavior without accepting Christ’s Lordship and atonement do not merely fall short (Rom. 3:23) but actually go in the opposite direction (Gal. 5:4), so we should cooperate with God’s Way.

Someone who does not hunger and thirst after righteousness (Matt. 5:6) and LGW (Psa. 119:9) needs to reevaluate the sincerity of his/her profession of faith in the Lord. As Paul says (in 2Cor. 13:5), “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith.” The spiritual beauty of God’s truth is as awe-inspiring or attractive as the physical beauty of God’s world for one who has the Spirit/mind of Christ (1Cor. 2:12-16).

I just noticed that d above is wrong. I would like to amend it to say that a pseudo-Christian affirms Jesus as Messiah but rejects His Lordship (1Cor. 6:9-11).

 

[tourist]

I have no problem with those who hold to OSAS who live holy lives. But to those who hold to OSAS who live carelessly, worldly, ungodly lives, I say-WATCH OUT!

The ones that you described were not saved in the first place.

For those that are born-again the Holy Spirit will comfort and guide them in the life-long repentance process.

I don't believe that there are many OSAS people that absolutely live holy lives. For the most part, they live like Paul lived, at times doing the things that they hate and not doing the things that they love. The road to salvation is a life-long journey.

 

[Churchgoer]

Jesus said to see the fruit, so you will know the tree.
Wild bush will not produce grapes, olives, figs, unless they are that tree.

See the fruit.

Fruit does not save the tree. But fruit shows what kind of tree that is.

 

[Delvianna]

Those that are truly born-again will be living like the devil. The bible states that Jesus will not lose a single one that the Father has trusted in his care. OSAS.

The Father has to entrust you first. Just mere belief doesn't automatically put you in that camp and that's the issue I have with OSAS. It's the doctrine that implies standard belief that Jesus is God is the only criteria and there for, you are saved eternally. It also implies that one can't walk away from Christ. Like Christ would against your will, refuse you to leave. Christ will not drop you, but you can drop yourself and the Father and Christ will honor it. Hence why you have the parable of the vine and other teachings about remaining in Christ.

 

[NightTwister]

No.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
I John 5

Salvation is proven by God's record of His Son and whether or not someone has believed that record. Many call God a liar by placing their faith in the sinner they see in the mirror and say, "Jesus did not do enough. I must add to the sacrifice He did in order to help Him atone for my sins. "

 

[tablet123]

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If a person hates sin, and does not want sin, and allows the Spirit to lead them to help them they will have the power to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

And God will give them an escape from the temptation.

So there is no excuse.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

These people will not let go of the flesh and do not come to the truth.

If OSAS is true why don't they come to the truth they can abstain from sin.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

God wants all people to be saved so then we have a choice.

If God chooses then why is He calling people that cannot be chosen and that is because we have a choice.

Predestination means God had the plan to give mankind salvation from the beginning.

But this salvation is to whoever wants it.

1. If OSAS is true and God chooses them to salvation and they cannot fall that should mean that they should always be led of the Spirit being Christlike.

For why would God allow them to sin if He chose them without their choice which means it would always be God's will in their life.

But they have a choice so they sin.

2. If OSAS is true then why would God create the Earth for people to inhabit with all the suffering and pain if it does not make a difference because they are going to choose anyway without their choice.

Whether in heaven or on earth it would be the same situation.

God creating the earth only makes sense if people have a choice.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Let's see who loses their salvation last !
OK, since salvation is ALSO by obedience to the LAW, let's see how long preachers can go without sinning.
Is everyone ready?
On your mark.
Get set.
G0!!!

 

[Chester]

How does one reconcile “once saved, always saved” with cases where, for example, a pastor, religious leader of some sort or even a layman acquaintance of yours lives in open sin and even claims God sanctioned their ungodly relationship.

None of us, as humans, can definitively know another person’s salvation status. Salvation isn't evidenced by roles like pastor or seminary graduate but solely by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Even saved individuals, including the Apostle Paul, struggle with sin due to the sin nature; a malady that not one of us can claim to have overcome. See Romans 7:15, 17, and 24. See also 1 Corinthians 5:1–5, which shows to us that a brother can commit grievous sin and should be disciplined (put out of the assembly) rather than presumed lost, as is the devilish practice of some.

In other words, the practical response to seeing someone err is not to conclude they lost salvation, but that we should all pursue restoration and ensure they hear the gospel truth, erring on the side of sharing gospel truth with everyone, without offense, confirming they understand and believe the gospel of grace and the necessity for living a holy life in Christ Jesus.

The sole means of salvation is faith in what the Lord Jesus Christ did. Self-righteousness and reliance on religious status are insufficient and can leave even prominent religious figures unsaved.

MM

I agree. This sounds pretty much like my non OSAS view. One does not look at a person's works to determine whether or not the person is saved. One looks at their faith in Christ (are they "hanging on" to Jesus?). And yet we are never the judge of eternal destiny: that prerogative is only for God.

The typical OSAS viewpoint would say that if a person's works are not measuring up (he is living like the devil) then that is proof he was never saved in the first place. You say above "the practical response to seeing someone err is not to conclude they lost salvation, but that we should all pursue restoration and ensure they hear the gospel truth." I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

 

[GWH]

I agree. This sounds pretty much like my non OSAS view. One does not look at a person's works to determine whether or not the person is saved. One looks at their faith in Christ (are they "hanging on" to Jesus?). And yet we are never the judge of eternal destiny: that prerogative is only for God.

The typical OSAS viewpoint would say that if a person's works are not measuring up (he is living like the devil) then that is proof he was never saved in the first place. You say above "the practical response to seeing someone err is not to conclude they lost salvation, but that we should all pursue restoration and ensure they hear the gospel truth." I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

Yes, I was once a OSAS Baptist until I read GW and learned these:

Matt. 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Rom. 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1Cor. 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
Gal. 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
Col. 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2Thes. 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2Tim. 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
Heb. 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
Heb. 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” This passage indicates that apostasy may be viewed as total depravity or blasphemy against the HS (MT 12:31).
Heb. 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
Jam. 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2Pet. 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2Pet. 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
Jude 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
Rev. 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

 

[Bible_Locket]

" Doesn't Living Like the Devil After Being Saved Disprove Once Saved Always Saved?"​

No.
It proves those who do that are nominal,name only, Xtians.

1 John 3:4-6
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

 

[Musicmaster]

I have no problem with those who hold to OSAS who live holy lives. But to those who hold to OSAS who live carelessly, worldly, ungodly lives, I say-WATCH OUT!

Good point.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What people build with is what will determine, after salvation, what survives the fires of that testing.

Amen

MM