Calvinism is Gospel !

[maximc]

No, all I meant was that because I don't personally know every Calvinist, I cannot say from my own knowledge that all Calvinists believe that that they have eternal security, but I can say that all of them that I know, or whose books I have read, do.

Is eternal security objective or subjective? If some Calvinists do not believe that they have eternal security, will they miss heaven? Will their predestination be cancelled?

 

[awelight]

Rom. 9 is not about salvation. It is about how God sovereignly decided to build the nation of Israel. In choosing whose generation should form the final nation of Israel, he did not ask anyone's consent. Through this promised lineage comes Jesus, and therefore salvation belongs to only those who fall within this promised lineage of Jesus Christ. Finally, Paul makes the conclusion of the whole matter in Rom. 9:30-32 by saying, "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;"
The above scripture clearly says that the gentiles are saved because of faith, and not because of predestination. The Israelites forfeited salvation because they did not want to change their mindset away from the law, and not because of predestination.

Regarding the other point where we inherit the sin and curse of Adam, I completely agree with you, but what I don't agree is when people reject the gospel of Christ, you are saying that they are not being condemned because they rejected the gospel, but they were already condemned because of Adam.

As to your last paragraph, that is exactly what I am saying. It is not as if a person is not condemned until they reject Jesus. Everyone from Adam to the end of time is already condemned and will remain that way unless they are regenerated and believe in Christ.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (NIV).

As to your explanation of Romans 9 - I have heard this explanation many times but it is not completely true. Yes, the example Paul is giving, is about events in Israel's past. However, it also is about individual election, for no one can deny that Abraham, Sarah, Jacob and Esau are individuals.

Additionally, you cannot forget about Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. In all five of these actions, highlighted in red, we have aorist tense verbs. That means these are past tense verbs. So the writer is not telling believers about their past, present and future. He is informing us, as believers, that we got there because all of these actions were in the mind of God before He created anything. In the mind of God, these things have already been accomplished because God resides in the ever present now. Eternity, has no past or future, as we would know it. There is order in eternity but without time.

 

[DavidLamb]

Is eternal security objective or subjective? If some Calvinists do not believe that they have eternal security, will they miss heaven? Will their predestination be cancelled?

I never said that some Calvinists do not believe that they have eternal security, just that I cannot speak for all Calvinists because I don't know all of them. No, I don't believe that anybody's salvation is dependent on whether they believe in eternal security. It depends on the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[maximc]

As to your last paragraph, that is exactly what I am saying. It is not as if a person is not condemned until they reject Jesus. Everyone from Adam to the end of time is already condemned and will remain that way unless they are regenerated and believe in Christ.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (NIV).

As to your explanation of Romans 9 - I have heard this explanation many times but it is not completely true. Yes, the example Paul is giving, is about events in Israel's past. However, it also is about individual election, for no one can deny that Abraham, Sarah, Jacob and Esau are individuals.

Additionally, you cannot forget about Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. In all five of these actions, highlighted in red, we have aorist tense verbs. That means these are past tense verbs. So the writer is not telling believers about their past, present and future. He is informing us, as believers, that we got there because all of these actions were in the mind of God before He created anything. In the mind of God, these things have already been accomplished because God resides in the ever present now. Eternity, has no past or future, as we would know it. There is order in eternity but without time.

John 3:18-21 says the following:
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

1. A person is not condemned because he believes in the gospel that he hears though of course by the faith that is deposited within him by God.
2. A person is condemned not because he descended from Adam for even those who believed in the gospel had also descended from Adam. The person is condemned because he did not believe in the gospel.
3. The reason why they are condemned is because light has come into the world, but they loved darkness because their deeds were evil.
4. They hate the light not because they are predestined not to believe but because their deeds are evil, and their deeds will be exposed.
5. They that do the truth come to the light because they fear God.

Now, you may say that a dead corpse cannot fear God. However, Rom. 2:14-15 says,
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
In other words, God has written his common law in everyone's conscience and they are being guided by their conscience. Therefore, Total Depravity is false.

 

[maximc]

I never said that some Calvinists do not believe that they have eternal security, just that I cannot speak for all Calvinists because I don't know all of them. No, I don't believe that anybody's salvation is dependent on whether they believe in eternal security. It depends on the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

If eternal security is objective, then you don't need to know any of them. You would outrightly say that all Calvinists are guaranteed with eternal security. Only if eternal security is subjective, then you need to know their spiritual condition to determine if they will be granted eternal security or not.

 

[DavidLamb]

If eternal security is objective, then you don't need to know any of them. You would outrightly say that all Calvinists are guaranteed with eternal security. Only if eternal security is subjective, then you need to know their spiritual condition to determine if they will be granted eternal security or not.

But that is to change the subject. We were discussing what Calvinists believe, not whether eternal security is true. (I believe it is, incidentally, as do those Calvinists that I know.)

 

[maximc]

But that is to change the subject. We were discussing what Calvinists believe, not whether eternal security is true. (I believe it is, incidentally, as do those Calvinists that I know.)

I did not deflect from the subject. The I and the P in TULIP is "Irresistible grace" and "Perseverance of the saints" which guarantees eternal security, right? Are you sure you are Calvinist?

 

[awelight]

John 3:18-21 says the following:
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

1. A person is not condemned because he believes in the gospel that he hears though of course by the faith that is deposited within him by God.
2. A person is condemned not because he descended from Adam for even those who believed in the gospel had also descended from Adam. The person is condemned because he did not believe in the gospel.
3. The reason why they are condemned is because light has come into the world, but they loved darkness because their deeds were evil.
4. They hate the light not because they are predestined not to believe but because their deeds are evil, and their deeds will be exposed.
5. They that do the truth come to the light because they fear God.

Now, you may say that a dead corpse cannot fear God. However, Rom. 2:14-15 says,
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
In other words, God has written his common law in everyone's conscience and they are being guided by their conscience. Therefore, Total Depravity is false.

Some how are another, you are not tracking what I am saying. When Adam fell because of his trespass, he brought condemnation to everyone that would be a product of his seed. Why? Because that which is sinful can only produce that which is sinful in the flesh. The sin nature resides in the offspring's flesh, passed along, one to another, in procreation.

It is for this cause, Jesus had no biological father. His father was the Holy Spirit. The Spirit sanctified Mary's womb, so that the unborn child, Jesus, would not be tainted by her. This allowed Jesus to be the only man born without a sin nature.

All of Adam's prodigy have his sin nature and as sinners stand condemned by a Holy God. Even the elect of God are sinners until they are brought into the ark of safety. Therefore all need the redeeming work of Jesus Christ in order to be spared God's wrath.

Of course the person that does not believe in Jesus Christ is condemned already (John 3:18), because he is already a sinner due to the fall. How do you think we all became sinners? It is in this way that we are "depraved". In the passages you just used above, we have the Lord telling us what a depraved person looks like.

John 3:18-21 says the following:
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Verse 21 is the really interesting one here. For it says - he that does truth - Now wait a minute here. The verses just ahead of this one say that man loves darkness, are evil and hate the light (God's Truth), and they will not come to the light. So we must ask ourselves: "What changed in verse 21 to make a man want to come to the light?". The answer to this question is in this verse - that they are wrought in God - Therefore, God is the producer or maker of these men. This should remind us of the immediate context of John chapter 3. The need of the new birth to perceive the things of the Kingdom of God. (V. 3). That the person has nothing to do with the new birth, it is a mysterious work of the Spirit. (V. 8). That everyone that believes on Jesus, has been born from above. (V. 8 & 15). Every time we see the word "whosoever", (like in V. 15 & 16), our minds should be going back to the new birth, (Regeneration), of verses 3-10, where this conversation began with Nicodemus and proceeded through verse 21.

 

[maximc]

Some how are another, you are not tracking what I am saying. When Adam fell because of his trespass, he brought condemnation to everyone that would be a product of his seed. Why? Because that which is sinful can only produce that which is sinful in the flesh. The sin nature resides in the offspring's flesh, passed along, one to another, in procreation.

It is for this cause, Jesus had no biological father. His father was the Holy Spirit. The Spirit sanctified Mary's womb, so that the unborn child, Jesus, would not be tainted by her. This allowed Jesus to be the only man born without a sin nature.

All of Adam's prodigy have his sin nature and as sinners stand condemned by a Holy God. Even the elect of God are sinners until they are brought into the ark of safety. Therefore all need the redeeming work of Jesus Christ in order to be spared God's wrath.

I don't dispute the fact that we all inherited the sin nature from Adam. What I am saying is that even in this so called "depraved" state, people can still fear God and do the right things as guided by their conscience. This is mentioned in Rom. 2:14-15 and Acts 10:34-35. It is such people that are the potential candidates to be saved as mentioned in John 6:37. Therefore, I would remove the word "total" from total depravity, and the so-called Calvinistic "predestination" is unfounded.

Of course the person that does not believe in Jesus Christ is condemned already (John 3:18), because he is already a sinner due to the fall.

Even though John 3:18 gives us the reason why the person is condemned, yet you resort to the fall. The word "already" in John 3:18 signifies that the person need not wait until the judgment day to be condemned. He is already condemned while he is still here on the earth.

John 3:18-21 says the following:
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Verse 21 is the really interesting one here. For it says - he that does truth - Now wait a minute here. The verses just ahead of this one say that man loves darkness, are evil and hate the light (God's Truth), and they will not come to the light. So we must ask ourselves: "What changed in verse 21 to make a man want to come to the light?". The answer to this question is in this verse - that they are wrought in God - Therefore, God is the producer or maker of these men. This should remind us of the immediate context of John chapter 3. The need of the new birth to perceive the things of the Kingdom of God. (V. 3). That the person has nothing to do with the new birth, it is a mysterious work of the Spirit. (V. 8). That everyone that believes on Jesus, has been born from above. (V. 8 & 15). Every time we see the word "whosoever", (like in V. 15 & 16), our minds should be going back to the new birth, (Regeneration), of verses 3-10, where this conversation began with Nicodemus and proceeded through verse 21.

As mentioned earlier, Rom. 2:14-15 says that certain people are guided by their conscience, and for this reason they fear God and do the right things. People who do evil things are those who violate their conscience. So, when conscience is the guiding factor for the gentiles to do the right thing, can you not say that their woks are wrought in God? Once they are born again, then definitely the HS will guide them to do the right things which again can be said that their works are wrought in God.

 

[brightfame52]

I don't dispute the fact that we all inherited the sin nature from Adam. What I am saying is that even in this so called "depraved" state, people can still fear God and do the right things as guided by their conscience. This is mentioned in Rom. 2:14-15 and Acts 10:34-35. It is such people that are the potential candidates to be saved as mentioned in John 6:37. Therefore, I would remove the word "total" from total depravity, and the so-called Calvinistic "predestination" is unfounded.

"Your attempt to remove 'Total' from Total Depravity by using Cornelius and Romans 2 completely collapses under the plain text of Scripture. You are attempting to build a theology where spiritually dead, unregenerate sinners can somehow fear God, work righteousness, and present themselves as 'potential candidates' for salvation.

Let’s look at exactly where your argument shatters against the word of God:

1. The Absolute Verdict on the Natural Man

You claim that even in a depraved state, natural people can still fear God and seek Him. The Apostle Paul completely silences your theory in Romans 3:11 and 3:18:

• “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.”
• “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

If Scripture explicitly states that no natural man fears God or seeks Him, then the moment we see Cornelius fearing God, giving alms, and praying always (Acts 10:2), it is an absolute biblical proof that Cornelius was not in a natural, unregenerate state. He was already a partaker of the New Covenant blessing of a regenerated heart! As God promised in Jeremiah 32:40: “...I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.” The fear of God is a gift of sovereign grace, not a product of the fallen Adamic ego.

Furthermore, Paul states in Romans 8:8: “So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” If Cornelius was still an unregenerate, partially depraved man 'in the flesh,' his prayers and sacrifices would have been an absolute abomination to a holy God (Proverbs 15:8). But Acts 10:35 says he was accepted with Him. He was accepted because he was already legally justified at the cross and internally quickened by the Holy Spirit. As the Apostle John explicitly laid down the rule: “...every one that doeth righteousness is born [gegennētai - has already been born, perfect tense] of him.” (1 John 2:29).

2. Your Severe Misreading of Romans 2:14-15

You point to the Gentiles' conscience in Romans 2 to argue that unregenerate man can do the right things to please God. You have completely missed the entire purpose of Paul’s argument.

Paul is not writing Romans 2 to show how heathen men can save themselves or become candidates for grace. The entire opening of Romans is a legal brief designed to prove universal guilt and total inability. Paul brings up the Gentiles' conscience to prove they are utterly condemned and without excuse because they constantly violate the very moral law written on their hearts. Look at the text: their thoughts are 'accusing or else excusing one another' (Rom 2:15). Their conscience is a prosecuting attorney mapping out their guilt, not a ladder of free-will righteousness to climb into God's favor.

3. John 6:37 Utterly Explodes Your 'Candidate' Theory

Finally, you claim that these 'good' unregenerate people are the 'potential candidates' Jesus speaks of in John 6:37. You have read the words of Christ completely backward.

Look at the ironclad, sovereign decree of John 6:37: “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

Jesus does not say, 'Whosoever handles their conscience well becomes a candidate for the Father to give to Me.' He sets up a flawless, unpreventable cause-and-effect: The Father gives a specific, elect people to the Son from eternity past, and 100% of those given shall come to Him in time.

The coming to Christ is the result of the Father's sovereign gift, not the condition for it. Cornelius did not make himself a candidate by his own free will. Cornelius was a chosen vessel of mercy, given to the Son before the world began, sovereignly quickened by the Spirit to fear God, and effectively brought to the light of the Gospel.

By trying to scrape 'Total' out of depravity, you are forcing yourself to argue that a branch can bear holy fruit while still severed from the vine, and that a dead man can please God while still in the flesh. You are fighting a losing battle against the absolute sovereignty of Jesus Christ."

---

 

[rogerg]

Rev. 3:5 speaks of the possibility of names being blotted out from the book of life. This indicates that everyone's name was written in the book of life. Their names are being removed because of unbelief. Heb. 3:12 affirms this fact.

Read it, the verse is clear.

 

[rogerg]

I said the verses you posted are true, which they are. Then I said God called us, which He did. I then said that we are required to put our faith in Jesus and I put the Bible verses that state this to be true. I'm not adding a requirement, I'm repeating the word of God, which you have decided is false as it doesn't align with your precepts. Avoid this pitfall

Read the New Covenant.

 

[DavidLamb]

I did not deflect from the subject. The I and the P in TULIP is "Irresistible grace" and "Perseverance of the saints" which guarantees eternal security, right? Are you sure you are Calvinist?

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that you were deflecting from the subject of the thread, just the particular aspect of that subject that i had written about. I do believe the Doctrines of Grace, known by some as "Calvinism."

 

[Journey_man]

My objection is simple: if Calvinism says a person is “a slave to sin,” but also says that sin is simply the person’s own nature, then the phrase collapses into a tautology. A person cannot meaningfully be enslaved to himself, because slavery requires an external master. If “sin” is just the self acting according to its own nature, then what Calvinism calls “bondage” is really just self‑expression—the person choosing exactly what he wants. That means the supposed “inability” is not like a machine missing a gear; it is a person acting freely according to his own desires. The takeaway is that the Calvinist framing unintentionally turns moral bondage into identity, making “slave to sin” a description of what a person is, not what a person is enslaved by.

If human beings always act according to who they are, then Adam must have acted according to who he was — which means his choice was simply the expression of his nature, not a departure from it. But if Adam acted according to his nature, then the idea of a “Fall” becomes impossible, because a fall requires a movement away from what one is, not the fulfillment of it. This is the same problem we see in the claim that sinners are “slaves to sin”: if sin is simply the self acting according to its own nature, then what Calvinism calls “bondage” is really just self‑expression, not slavery. The takeaway is that if all human action flows necessarily from human nature, then Adam never changed natures, never fell, and never became something he was not — which collapses the entire concept of the Fall into a contradiction.

I never claimed that "Calvinism says a person is a slave to sin". But I did quote God's Word, because God said it before John Calvin.

You seem to have overlooked or ignored the fact that everyone is born into slavery to sin and Satan. So you're half right, in saying - "A person cannot meaningfully be enslaved to himself, because slavery requires an external master." Satan is that external master that you mentioned.

Adam was not inherently sinful, nor was he "forced" to sin by an already present corrupted nature. The sin nature (total depravity) is a consequence of the Fall, not a pre-existing condition. After his transgression, that original liberty was lost, leaving humanity with a corrupted nature that inclines only toward sin.

The natural man sins "voluntarily" because it is the overflow of his corrupt desires. He cannot choose spiritual good because he lacks the inclination or desire to do so. Jesus states, "Everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin" (John 8:34). The Apostle Paul explains this condition by stating the "mind set on the flesh is hostile to God" (Romans 8:7)

While man’s sin is internal, the external realm of the unsaved is ruled by Satan, whom Scripture describes as the "ruler of this world". The devil does not necessarily need to physically force the natural man to do his bidding; rather, he exploits humanity's innate love for sin, leading unbelievers to do his will.

Paul refers to unbelievers as those who are "held captive by him [the devil] to do his will" (2 Timothy 2:26).

 

[maximc]

You are attempting to build a theology where spiritually dead, unregenerate sinners can somehow fear God, work righteousness, and present themselves as 'potential candidates' for salvation.

Aren't the scriptures in Rom. 2:14-15 and Acts 10:34-35 affirm the fact that people can still fear God in their fallen state? How then did Abel offer the perfect sacrifice to God? Rom. 3:11,18 speaks about people in general, but the scriptures I mentioned are an exception to that because the Bible is full of remnant people being saved.

the moment we see Cornelius fearing God, giving alms, and praying always (Acts 10:2), it is an absolute biblical proof that Cornelius was not in a natural, unregenerate state. He was already a partaker of the New Covenant blessing of a regenerated heart!

You mean to say that Cornelius was already regenerated even before Peter came to his house and shared the gospel? Oh! Wonderful. In that case people need not hear the gospel at all to be saved. Why then did the angel ask him to fetch Peter to his house?

If Cornelius was still an unregenerate, partially depraved man 'in the flesh,' his prayers and sacrifices would have been an absolute abomination to a holy God (Proverbs 15:8).

No, it cannot be an abomination because wickedness and righteousness is a matter of the heart and not whether they have been regenerated or not. This can be confirmed from Luk. 18:13-14

He was accepted because he was already legally justified at the cross and internally quickened by the Holy Spirit.

You are saying that Cornelius was legally justified and quickened by the HS. May I know at what point of time a person gets justified and quickened? Is it before they hear the gospel or after?

Paul is not writing Romans 2 to show how heathen men can save themselves or become candidates for grace.

If you read Rom. 2:26-27, it clearly says that if the uncircumcision meaning gentiles keep the law, will they not be considered as circumcised when compared to the Jews who do not follow the law? It further says that such gentiles even have the right to judge the Jews who do not follow the law.

Jesus does not say, 'Whosoever handles their conscience well becomes a candidate for the Father to give to Me.' He sets up a flawless, unpreventable cause-and-effect: The Father gives a specific, elect people to the Son from eternity past, and 100% of those given shall come to Him in time.

From the scriptures I provided above, it is quite clear that the gentiles who fear God and do the right things as per their conscience are the potential candidates to be saved. Therefore, John 6:37 can be paraphrased this way:
All that the Father giveth me (who are the potential candidates for salvation) shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37

 

[Journey_man]

Only useless in Calvinist soteriology, because the unbelievers were predestined to be unbelievers.

Unbelievers were not predestined to be unbelievers, they are unbelievers because they're wicked and they hate God. So God leaves them dead in their condemned sinful state.

You can't blame God for their evil deeds, God is not the author of evil.

 

[maximc]

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that you were deflecting from the subject of the thread, just the particular aspect of that subject that i had written about. I do believe the Doctrines of Grace, known by some as "Calvinism."

I too believe in the doctrine of grace, but I am not a Calvinist. There are different versions of the doctrine of grace. One that is most popular and abhorrent is OSAS. It is the doctrine of demons mentioned in 2 Tim. 4:3

 

[Journey_man]

Wow. So calls to deny. Rediculous.

Wow, how did you convince yourself that the wicked love the gospel. They hate God, hate the gospel and hate His Son. So much so, they tortured and killed Him, and you think they just need to hear the gospel and everything will workout in the end.

 

[Journey_man]

In the book of Jude, he too speaks of a similar problem in the church where he says, "ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares".

So, how do we identify those "certain men who crept in unawares". There are an estimated 47,000 Christian Denominations, many of these hold to radically different versions of the gospel. They all claim to be the only ones who poses the truth, while they contradict each other.

 

[brightfame52]

You mean to say that Cornelius was already regenerated even before Peter came to his house and shared the gospel?

Yes, in fact it was because he was already regenerated God sent him the Gospel to beleive.