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ty jimmy.
Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone
Solus Christus - Christ Alone
Sola Gratia - Grace Alone
Sola Fide - Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria - The Glory of God Alone
Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature ... God's grace in Christ is not merely necessary but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. We confess that human beings are born spiritually dead and are incapable even of cooperating with regenerating grace. We reaffirm that in salvation we are rescued from God's wrath by his grace alone. It is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life. We deny that salvation is in any sense a human work. Human methods, techniques or strategies by themselves cannot accomplish this transformation. Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human nature. - Cambridge Declaration
Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone
Solus Christus - Christ Alone
Sola Gratia - Grace Alone
Sola Fide - Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria - The Glory of God Alone
Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature ... God's grace in Christ is not merely necessary but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. We confess that human beings are born spiritually dead and are incapable even of cooperating with regenerating grace. We reaffirm that in salvation we are rescued from God's wrath by his grace alone. It is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life. We deny that salvation is in any sense a human work. Human methods, techniques or strategies by themselves cannot accomplish this transformation. Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human nature. - Cambridge Declaration
A
wow 22 pages of texts.....this unicorn isn't so appealing any more I think I'm going to get off.
but before I go we should discuss the difference between salvation and preservance.
It doesn't seem like anyone is against the statement that GOD saves, but the question who continues the process of salvation and sanctification and can it ever be lost?
I have already come out and stated I believe the HOLY SPIRIT does all the saving. As someone said. I was saved at the cross, I am being saved every day of my life and I will be saved with the second coming of Christ and the redemption of my body.
I don't spend all my time on this computer most days. I try and interact and give love to those God places in my path, sharing with them my faith not only in words but through actions and practical expressions of love and if anyone asked me why I do the things I do it is because God loves me and who am I to do less? who can boast when it is not our free will that compels to do good but GOD's will that places the burden of compassion and love for the world who is so desparately in need of God's love and light and Truth. Who need to hear how God so loved the world He sent Jesus Christ to die and suffer and rise again for the remission of sins.
How do you reach the minds and hearts that are closed and not willing to hear the Truth?
You can't. Only God can, but we can speak the words of the Gospel into their life and plant the seeds. or we can water the seeds that someone else has planted with God's love and His truth through our words and actions to another who may be angry, hateful, bitter, self serving and just plain mean.
We can be our Father's children and not react in anger but respond in love. Love does not mean giving them what they want but loving them enough to tell them the truth and give them what they need not just what they desire for the desires of an unregenerate heart are wicked and sinful. Until they have God in their lives they desire nothing good or godly. you can pray and see the change in the heart when God is working on them. they begin to bear the fruits of the Spirit and all our hearts can do is rejoice and thank God for His mercy and grace.
do we do these works so that we might be sinless? Do we do them to get a reward or praises from men?
no. that should not be in our hearts or minds at all. We do it because God complies us to. we do it because we have no choice that is acceptable to our new natures, our new hearts recoil at the thought of turning from God to just fulfill our own base lusts and desires. Our minds shout, No Lord, save me, keep me from temptation and deliver me from evil. not through my strength Lord but through YOURS.
I don't know why there is such a focus on sin and not upon Jesus and the Cross. If people are truly saved they would be complied to bear good fruit and do good works. not because lack of doing it would cause them to lose their salvation but because lack of doing God's will would cause them to sorrow in their hearts and be unhappy and discontent because they have walked away from God.
What did Peter say when Jesus asked if they would depart too?
John 6:68
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
to whom shall we go?
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT88jBAoVIM[/video]
but before I go we should discuss the difference between salvation and preservance.
It doesn't seem like anyone is against the statement that GOD saves, but the question who continues the process of salvation and sanctification and can it ever be lost?
I have already come out and stated I believe the HOLY SPIRIT does all the saving. As someone said. I was saved at the cross, I am being saved every day of my life and I will be saved with the second coming of Christ and the redemption of my body.
I don't spend all my time on this computer most days. I try and interact and give love to those God places in my path, sharing with them my faith not only in words but through actions and practical expressions of love and if anyone asked me why I do the things I do it is because God loves me and who am I to do less? who can boast when it is not our free will that compels to do good but GOD's will that places the burden of compassion and love for the world who is so desparately in need of God's love and light and Truth. Who need to hear how God so loved the world He sent Jesus Christ to die and suffer and rise again for the remission of sins.
How do you reach the minds and hearts that are closed and not willing to hear the Truth?
You can't. Only God can, but we can speak the words of the Gospel into their life and plant the seeds. or we can water the seeds that someone else has planted with God's love and His truth through our words and actions to another who may be angry, hateful, bitter, self serving and just plain mean.
We can be our Father's children and not react in anger but respond in love. Love does not mean giving them what they want but loving them enough to tell them the truth and give them what they need not just what they desire for the desires of an unregenerate heart are wicked and sinful. Until they have God in their lives they desire nothing good or godly. you can pray and see the change in the heart when God is working on them. they begin to bear the fruits of the Spirit and all our hearts can do is rejoice and thank God for His mercy and grace.
do we do these works so that we might be sinless? Do we do them to get a reward or praises from men?
no. that should not be in our hearts or minds at all. We do it because God complies us to. we do it because we have no choice that is acceptable to our new natures, our new hearts recoil at the thought of turning from God to just fulfill our own base lusts and desires. Our minds shout, No Lord, save me, keep me from temptation and deliver me from evil. not through my strength Lord but through YOURS.
I don't know why there is such a focus on sin and not upon Jesus and the Cross. If people are truly saved they would be complied to bear good fruit and do good works. not because lack of doing it would cause them to lose their salvation but because lack of doing God's will would cause them to sorrow in their hearts and be unhappy and discontent because they have walked away from God.
What did Peter say when Jesus asked if they would depart too?
John 6:68
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
to whom shall we go?
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT88jBAoVIM[/video]
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A
wow real mature, find one post that he says that, because if you are able I must have missed it.
no one is teaching that sin is okay.
Most would agree that only by the Holy Spirit is sin overcome.
Some think that you or others who profess syngerism take create for the work of the Holy Spirit and try to do it themselves and place the burden on others to do the same instead of having faith and trusting that the HOLY SPIRIT saves and guides and keeps people from sin.
Don't know if you believe that or not but that is the current perception of your position. would you like to clarify what you really believe
or sling some more mud that just obscures what is really being discussed.
Insults are unnecessary and Cronjecj does not teach that sin is a good thing and should be allowed to say in people's life but that the HOLY SPIRIT does the work of changing people and teaching them to over come and it is the work of GOD not man so no man can boast.
Correct me if I'm wrong Cronjecj but that is what I have read from your posts so far. word of advice: don't poke them too much they tend to snap.
no one is teaching that sin is okay.
Most would agree that only by the Holy Spirit is sin overcome.
Some think that you or others who profess syngerism take create for the work of the Holy Spirit and try to do it themselves and place the burden on others to do the same instead of having faith and trusting that the HOLY SPIRIT saves and guides and keeps people from sin.
Don't know if you believe that or not but that is the current perception of your position. would you like to clarify what you really believe
or sling some more mud that just obscures what is really being discussed.
Insults are unnecessary and Cronjecj does not teach that sin is a good thing and should be allowed to say in people's life but that the HOLY SPIRIT does the work of changing people and teaching them to over come and it is the work of GOD not man so no man can boast.
Correct me if I'm wrong Cronjecj but that is what I have read from your posts so far. word of advice: don't poke them too much they tend to snap.
no, it does not accept non-inspired writings... what I'm saying is the theology is reflected in the writings.
if something like OSAS were being taught in that time, the concept of it would be found in all Christian writings, canonical or not.
you forget the word "believe"... the word is present tens and active... we have to believe in order to be saved.
i've already discussed the issue of John 6... there's a difference between salvation itself and the possessions of salvation.
salvation will always be eternal, as Christ said... but our possession of it is conditional upon our faith in Christ
to say otherwise contradicts John 14:6
if something like OSAS were being taught in that time, the concept of it would be found in all Christian writings, canonical or not.
you forget the word "believe"... the word is present tens and active... we have to believe in order to be saved.
i've already discussed the issue of John 6... there's a difference between salvation itself and the possessions of salvation.
salvation will always be eternal, as Christ said... but our possession of it is conditional upon our faith in Christ
to say otherwise contradicts John 14:6
J
See my post, por favor.
Yes, it is to .. "those of you who believe".
Salvation is by grace through faith. I hope that's what you mean.
Eph 2:8
You've done nothing to address John 6.
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” 41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
The passage is clearly taking about being saved.
Our faith is a gift from God.
Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
Yes, it is to .. "those of you who believe".
Salvation is by grace through faith. I hope that's what you mean.
Eph 2:8
You've done nothing to address John 6.
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” 41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
The passage is clearly taking about being saved.
Our faith is a gift from God.
Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
Sure
re·ceive   [ri-seev]
Show IPA verb, -ceived, -ceiv·ing.
verb (used with object) 1.to take into one's possession (something offered or delivered): to receive many gifts.
how about accept
ac·cept
[ak-sept]
Show IPA
verb (used with object) 1.to take or receive (something offered); receive with approval or favor: to accept a present; to accept a proposal.
2.to agree or consent to; accede to: to accept a treaty; to accept an apology.
3.to respond or answer affirmatively to: to accept an invitation.
4.to undertake the responsibility, duties, honors, etc., of: to accept the office of president.
5.to receive or admit formally, as to a college or club.
Yeah, thats even better. We must accept Salvation to receive our salvation.
re·ceive   [ri-seev]
verb (used with object) 1.to take into one's possession (something offered or delivered): to receive many gifts.
how about accept
ac·cept
[ak-sept]
verb (used with object) 1.to take or receive (something offered); receive with approval or favor: to accept a present; to accept a proposal.
2.to agree or consent to; accede to: to accept a treaty; to accept an apology.
3.to respond or answer affirmatively to: to accept an invitation.
4.to undertake the responsibility, duties, honors, etc., of: to accept the office of president.
5.to receive or admit formally, as to a college or club.
Yeah, thats even better. We must accept Salvation to receive our salvation.
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J
Sure
re·ceive   [ri-seev]
Show IPA verb, -ceived, -ceiv·ing.
verb (used with object) 1.to take into one's possession (something offered or delivered): to receive many gifts.
how about accept
ac·cept
   [ak-sept]
Show IPA
verb (used with object) 1.to take or receive (something offered); receive with approval or favor: to accept a present; to accept a proposal.
2.to agree or consent to; accede to: to accept a treaty; to accept an apology.
3.to respond or answer affirmatively to: to accept an invitation.
4.to undertake the responsibility, duties, honors, etc., of: to accept the office of president.
5.to receive or admit formally, as to a college or club.
re·ceive   [ri-seev]
verb (used with object) 1.to take into one's possession (something offered or delivered): to receive many gifts.
how about accept
ac·cept
   [ak-sept]
verb (used with object) 1.to take or receive (something offered); receive with approval or favor: to accept a present; to accept a proposal.
2.to agree or consent to; accede to: to accept a treaty; to accept an apology.
3.to respond or answer affirmatively to: to accept an invitation.
4.to undertake the responsibility, duties, honors, etc., of: to accept the office of president.
5.to receive or admit formally, as to a college or club.
I asked because there are several definitions, and just wasn't sure which was being used as more than one would have fit grammatically.
So you are saying, that our being Saved, is partially something we do?
J
I have not seen any scriptural support for that.
John 6:37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
Father gives ---> will come to christ ----> jesus won't drive them away
It says, "the father gives" not "the father assists/urges"
I do believe the five points of Calvinism to be scriptural. When I find they are not, I will drop them like it's hawt.
That's what I did with Arminianism.
I subscribe to the bible on matters of doctrine, as it is the inspired inerrent Word of God.
I believe double predestination to be the case, as far as I understand it, because it is effectively what happens when one accepts Total Depravity to be true. I'll drop it too, like it's hawt, if it's not scriptural.
John 6:37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
Father gives ---> will come to christ ----> jesus won't drive them away
It says, "the father gives" not "the father assists/urges"
I do believe the five points of Calvinism to be scriptural. When I find they are not, I will drop them like it's hawt.
That's what I did with Arminianism.
I subscribe to the bible on matters of doctrine, as it is the inspired inerrent Word of God.
I believe double predestination to be the case, as far as I understand it, because it is effectively what happens when one accepts Total Depravity to be true. I'll drop it too, like it's hawt, if it's not scriptural.
Then to you, God preordains sin and causes sin to happen...
For those who don't know, double predestination days people are predestined to the lake of fire as well... In other words, God punishes those sinners to damnation even though it was God who predestined and caused them to sin in the first place.
The Word says differently
The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9 HCSB)
For those who don't know, double predestination days people are predestined to the lake of fire as well... In other words, God punishes those sinners to damnation even though it was God who predestined and caused them to sin in the first place.
The Word says differently
The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9 HCSB)
J
Does God Author Sin? - Desiring God <--- click
Also, see Isaiah 10.
Westminster Confession: "neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin" (5:4)
Also, even under Arminianism you must accept your own criticism. You believe he created you knowing you would sin. Oh darn.
God is not responsible, nor to be blamed.
Romans 9
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
It's just a matter of linguistics. Even as an Arminian, you won't admit it but you effectively believe this as well.
Context must be a luxury product amongst Arminians.
Look at the text around it. What is he talking about?
1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar;
He's talking about the second coming of Christ.
Also, see Isaiah 10.
Westminster Confession: "neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin" (5:4)
Also, even under Arminianism you must accept your own criticism. You believe he created you knowing you would sin. Oh darn.
God is not responsible, nor to be blamed.
Romans 9
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
It's just a matter of linguistics. Even as an Arminian, you won't admit it but you effectively believe this as well.
Context must be a luxury product amongst Arminians.
Look at the text around it. What is he talking about?
1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar;
He's talking about the second coming of Christ.
Calvin was an unrepentant murderer and a heretic. Calvinism is heresy. No one who truly understand grace or believe the Bible can honestly say they think Calvinism is scriptural. Calvinist do not really care about truth at all but the systematic false theology. Seeing as you have admitted your heretical beliefs, I do no think I need to continue this discussion, as I know you will not hear truth