A description of the New Testament church of Christ from scripture

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Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Jas 3:2
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man ,and able also to bridle the whole body.

Rom 8:21
Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rev. ch 21-ch 22 show something perfect having come: the new creation.

Either of us could be right. However, the church still has to hear from God and needs healing, and to serve in the powe ofmthe Holy Spirt, and evangelists, pastors/teachers, so still needs the ministry of the Holy Spirit gifts So, any theology that rejects the Holy Spirit’s gifts in the church seems sub-optimal. .

1Co 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

The church still needs to be edified. That’s what the Holy Spirit’s gifts are for. Your church of Christ soinds Sardis-like.
Rev 3:1

"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: 'The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.

Rev. 3:1 "'I know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead.
seems to be
Eph. 4 and James 3 are both talking about “perfect” men— human beings. Are you saying the word “perfect” in 1 Cor. 13:13 is talking about a perfect man? There is no such thing unless you think it is Jesus; and I have already explained why I don’t believe that.

Paul told Timothy that the scriptures are ALL we need to be “complete”, thoroughly equipped for everything. We do not need anything else. God is not still delivering new information that the churches need. In
Jude 3 the Holy Spirit tells us that “the faith” has ONCE for all been DELIVERED to the saints. Scripture does not teach that God is continuing to give us new revelations all the time. He put EVERYTHING we need in His book—the Bible.

The primary method of edification for the church is through the scriptures. Like Paul said, It instructs us in righteousness and makes us “complete”. Paul says it is “profitable.” We get out “faith” from the scriptures. Faith comes from hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17.

God has also provided edification through our “assembling ourselves together as Hebrews 10:25 commands us. Being edified by mutual love and support. He says it “stirs us up!” That’s edification! Stirs us up to love and perform good works!

God has also provided edification for His church through worship. We are edified through “singing”, teaching and admonishing one another through psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Col. 3:16 —through prayer, —-through taking the Lord’s supper. He has provided everything for us through the scriptures.

We have God’s completed revelation; if we have obeyed it as He has directed, then according to Acts 2, we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, helping us,. What more do we need? God has supplied us with all we need to be “COMPLETE.” Thoroughly furnished us with everything. (2 Tim. 3:16). Miraculous spiritual gifts are no longer needed. We have the completed “perfect” will of God.
 
I like the parameters for the most part, but "Their women did not speak in public assemblies and did not usurp authority over a man" does not discern that in the church of Christ authority means servanthood (Matt. 20:25-28) and mutual submission (Eph. 5:21, 1Cor. 11:11-12). The restriction against women speaking (1Cor. 14:34) was probably due to cultural concerns rather than meant as an eternal moral command (Gal. 3:28, 1Cor. 7:12,21,25,35&39-40, 8:9, 9:19-23, 10:31-33, 11:13-16). Also, there is no NT proscription of mechanical musical instruments. Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 merely indicate that the message in the lyrics is more important than the musical accompaniment.
I believe that if you will research the church in the first few hundred years, you will find that according to history, instruments of music were not used in the church until the 7th-9th century. That means for over 500 years the early Christians understood that God instructed the early church to use vocal music, not instrumental. There was a reason they did not use mechanical instruments of music for over 500 years. It was a question of authority. Denominationalism does not regard “authority” as important, believing that man can do whatever he chooses to make “worship” more pleasing to him. . Men teach that Goddoesn’t care if we change it to whatever we think is best., whatever we want, or what pleases us. However, the Bible denies this. The church that Jesus built honors Him as the “Head” realizing that no man has the right or the “authority” to change, add to what God has ordained, or remove what God has said. That is one of the basic differences between Denominationalism and the church that belongs to Christ—the one He built. Denominations take God’s silence as “permission.” This is the old debate between Luther and Zwingli. Luther, like all of the Protestant churches today, believed you could do anything in the church that God did not specifically forbid. Zwingli, on the other hand, believed that you must have authority from God before you can practice a thing. I believe you and I probably have the same problem as Luther and Zwingli—a difference in ATTITUDE toward the. Scriptures.

The early church had no authority from God to change the kind of music in the church that God had ordained, from just vocal to vocal AND INSTRUMENTS. There are only 2 kinds of music—vocal and instrumental. God has SPECIFIED the kind of music He ordained for His church—vocal. To ADD instruments to what God has said, is to act without His authority and is exactly what He is talking about in Rev. 22:18. This is exactly the situation in Matt. 7. Those believers who thought they were Christian’s, were refused because, as Jesus says in verse 23, they were “practicing lawlessness!!” They were doing things WITHOUT GOD’s AUTHORITY, or without God’s law or permission. Oh, yes, they were performing many mighty works, THEIR WORKS, which they assumed God would be pleased with and accept, but God says “NO”. You didn’t have any authority from me for doing these things. So I think Luther was the one who had it wrong. I have to go along with Zwingli’s thought on what can we do in the church.

You said, “the restriction against women speaking was “PROBABLY” due to cultural concerns rather than meant as an eternal moral command.” And yet, immediately after Paul tells wonen to keep silent in the church, he says, “the things I am writing to you ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD.” That does not sound like Paul is using “culture” as his reason for teaching women to be silent. In the church. If you will look back to chapter 1:2, you will see WHO Paul is addressing this letter to: to the church at Corinth, yes. But ALSO, to all saints who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, AND…. To ALL WHO IN EVERY PLACE CALL ON THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD, both theirs and ours.” The things Paul wrote in this book we’re to ALL CHRISTIANS IN EVERY PLACE and we’re the commandments of the Lord. Now add to that chapter 4:, verse 17 - “…who will remind you of MY WAYS IN CHRIST, AS I TEACH EVERYWHERE IN EVERY CHURCH.”
So here is why I don’t accept the argument that women keeping silent in the church was a “cultural thing”; first of all, Paul wrote this letter to every church in every place and to all Christians everywhere. 2) Paul tells them specifically that the things I am telling you are the commandments of the Lord. My own personal opinion is that the reason he says this so soon after telling women to keep silent, was because he knew this teaching was hard, and would not be accepted by many. Maybe also he did not want people to think that he had something against women as if these were HIS THOUGHTS and not God’s command. Which is exactly what has happened. Many people believe Paul is expressing HIS views on women and he has unfairly been called a “woman hater.” And 3) Paul says I TEACH THE SAME THING IN EVERY CHURCH. The instruction for women to keep silent was for EVERY woman in the Lord’s church no matter where or when. It is a commandment of the Lord. Everybody wants Jesus as their SAVIOR; very few want Him as their LORD. A LORD tells you what you can and cannot do. A LORD gives you commands and expects obedience. A LORD has authority over you and expects you to be submissive. Not many are willing to accept Him as that!
 
Logic dictates that the sign gifts ceased with the completion of the cannon.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Notice all cease and vanish except love or charity.

His point ends by saying:

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Those that believe in ongoing revelation, "A word from the Lord came to me" etc, say that the "perfect" of verse 10 refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ, so the sign gifts still happen today. But by comparing verse 13 with verse 8 we see that faith and hope were to continue for a time after the spiritual gifts were abolished.

Faith looks forward to the fulfillment of something not seen.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

Likewise, hope is waiting with expectation for something, hope that is seen is not hope. For who still hopes for what they already see and have?

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

If the "perfect" of verse 10 means the gifts end at the second coming of Jesus Christ, then how can faith and hope continue for a time after the sign gifts cease? Because what is hoped for has been realised. So all the sign gifts have to be ended before the second coming.

Verse 13 ends with, "but the greatest of these is charity."
In verse 8 it says "Charity never faileth".

After the second coming of Jesus Christ, when all else has ceased, charity or brotherly love remains, it never ceases.


Paul gives us two illustrations to explain the main point. The first illustration is in verse 11:

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

This equates attaining the fullness of knowledge with becoming a mature man., Ephesians 4:13-15 teaches the same thing,

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

In verse 12, Paul gives us his second illustration to explain the main point.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Mirrors back then were polished metal, so you would see your reflection but it would not be a true or clear reflection, Paul contrasts this with seeing a person face to face, seeing someone clearly.

The point is that the gifts are for a time when Christians see darkly and knew in part, but when we have the completed Word of God, Christians will see clearly and know fully.

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

If the Bible is not complete then what the Apostles did was not good enough for us today, and more revelation is needed. This is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, they elect successors to the Apostles, successors to the office of Peter, so they can claim they are speaking for God by divine revelation, and their teaching evolves over the centuries. They believe the gifts have not ceased but are ongoing. The modern day Charismatic movement does the same thing, adding divine revelation to what God has said.
Amen!! And you made some good points that I had not thought of.
 
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Paul told Timothy that the scriptures are ALL we need to be “complete”, thoroughly equipped for everything. We do not need anything else.
2Ti 3:15
and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17
so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Where does Paul say there that "the scriptures are ALL we need to be “complete”, thoroughly equipped for everything. We do not need anything else."
 
The primary method of edification for the church is through the scriptures. Like Paul said, It instructs us in righteousness and makes us “complete”. Paul says it is “profitable.” We get out “faith” from the scriptures. Faith comes from hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17.
Where does Paul say that the scriptures "make us complete”? 1 Tim 3:15-17 doesn’t say that.
 
Logic dictates that the sign gifts ceased with the completion of the cannon.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Notice all cease and vanish except love or charity.

His point ends by saying:

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Those that believe in ongoing revelation, "A word from the Lord came to me" etc, say that the "perfect" of verse 10 refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ, so the sign gifts still happen today. But by comparing verse 13 with verse 8 we see that faith and hope were to continue for a time after the spiritual gifts were abolished.

Faith looks forward to the fulfillment of something not seen.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

Likewise, hope is waiting with expectation for something, hope that is seen is not hope. For who still hopes for what they already see and have?

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

If the "perfect" of verse 10 means the gifts end at the second coming of Jesus Christ, then how can faith and hope continue for a time after the sign gifts cease? Because what is hoped for has been realised. So all the sign gifts have to be ended before the second coming.

Verse 13 ends with, "but the greatest of these is charity."
In verse 8 it says "Charity never faileth".

After the second coming of Jesus Christ, when all else has ceased, charity or brotherly love remains, it never ceases.


Paul gives us two illustrations to explain the main point. The first illustration is in verse 11:

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

This equates attaining the fullness of knowledge with becoming a mature man., Ephesians 4:13-15 teaches the same thing,

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

In verse 12, Paul gives us his second illustration to explain the main point.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Mirrors back then were polished metal, so you would see your reflection but it would not be a true or clear reflection, Paul contrasts this with seeing a person face to face, seeing someone clearly.

The point is that the gifts are for a time when Christians see darkly and knew in part, but when we have the completed Word of God, Christians will see clearly and know fully.

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

If the Bible is not complete then what the Apostles did was not good enough for us today, and more revelation is needed. This is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, they elect successors to the Apostles, successors to the office of Peter, so they can claim they are speaking for God by divine revelation, and their teaching evolves over the centuries. They believe the gifts have not ceased but are ongoing. The modern day Charismatic movement does the same thing, adding divine revelation to what God has said.
You make some good points, WayneNSO.

But I don’t think they prove that “that which is perfect” cannot be the perfect man manifest (at the resurrection at the beginning of the millennium).

Your argument, correct me if I am wrong, is that prophecies, tongues and knowledge will cease when that which is perfect comes, but faith, hope and love continue after that which is perfect has come. Am I correctly restating your case?

When the saints are resurrected and have

I
 
I believe that if you will research the church in the first few hundred years, you will find that according to history, instruments of music were not used in the church until the 7th-9th century. That means for over 500 years the early Christians understood that God instructed the early church to use vocal music, not instrumental. There was a reason they did not use mechanical instruments of music for over 500 years. It was a question of authority. Denominationalism does not regard “authority” as important, believing that man can do whatever he chooses to make “worship” more pleasing to him. . Men teach that Goddoesn’t care if we change it to whatever we think is best., whatever we want, or what pleases us. However, the Bible denies this. The church that Jesus built honors Him as the “Head” realizing that no man has the right or the “authority” to change, add to what God has ordained, or remove what God has said. That is one of the basic differences between Denominationalism and the church that belongs to Christ—the one He built. Denominations take God’s silence as “permission.” This is the old debate between Luther and Zwingli. Luther, like all of the Protestant churches today, believed you could do anything in the church that God did not specifically forbid. Zwingli, on the other hand, believed that you must have authority from God before you can practice a thing. I believe you and I probably have the same problem as Luther and Zwingli—a difference in ATTITUDE toward the. Scriptures.

The early church had no authority from God to change the kind of music in the church that God had ordained, from just vocal to vocal AND INSTRUMENTS. There are only 2 kinds of music—vocal and instrumental. God has SPECIFIED the kind of music He ordained for His church—vocal. To ADD instruments to what God has said, is to act without His authority and is exactly what He is talking about in Rev. 22:18. This is exactly the situation in Matt. 7. Those believers who thought they were Christian’s, were refused because, as Jesus says in verse 23, they were “practicing lawlessness!!” They were doing things WITHOUT GOD’s AUTHORITY, or without God’s law or permission. Oh, yes, they were performing many mighty works, THEIR WORKS, which they assumed God would be pleased with and accept, but God says “NO”. You didn’t have any authority from me for doing these things. So I think Luther was the one who had it wrong. I have to go along with Zwingli’s thought on what can we do in the church.

You said, “the restriction against women speaking was “PROBABLY” due to cultural concerns rather than meant as an eternal moral command.” And yet, immediately after Paul tells wonen to keep silent in the church, he says, “the things I am writing to you ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD.” That does not sound like Paul is using “culture” as his reason for teaching women to be silent. In the church. If you will look back to chapter 1:2, you will see WHO Paul is addressing this letter to: to the church at Corinth, yes. But ALSO, to all saints who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, AND…. To ALL WHO IN EVERY PLACE CALL ON THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD, both theirs and ours.” The things Paul wrote in this book we’re to ALL CHRISTIANS IN EVERY PLACE and we’re the commandments of the Lord. Now add to that chapter 4:, verse 17 - “…who will remind you of MY WAYS IN CHRIST, AS I TEACH EVERYWHERE IN EVERY CHURCH.”
So here is why I don’t accept the argument that women keeping silent in the church was a “cultural thing”; first of all, Paul wrote this letter to every church in every place and to all Christians everywhere. 2) Paul tells them specifically that the things I am telling you are the commandments of the Lord. My own personal opinion is that the reason he says this so soon after telling women to keep silent, was because he knew this teaching was hard, and would not be accepted by many. Maybe also he did not want people to think that he had something against women as if these were HIS THOUGHTS and not God’s command. Which is exactly what has happened. Many people believe Paul is expressing HIS views on women and he has unfairly been called a “woman hater.” And 3) Paul says I TEACH THE SAME THING IN EVERY CHURCH. The instruction for women to keep silent was for EVERY woman in the Lord’s church no matter where or when. It is a commandment of the Lord. Everybody wants Jesus as their SAVIOR; very few want Him as their LORD. A LORD tells you what you can and cannot do. A LORD gives you commands and expects obedience. A LORD has authority over you and expects you to be submissive. Not many are willing to accept Him as that!

The church until the Reformation was mainly RC/corrupt, so that argument is not at all convincing.

I understand you reject the interpretation of Scripture I shared, and I reject yours.

I guess we will see who is surprised when we get to heaven, but I place my bet confidently. :love:
 
2Ti 3:15
and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17
so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Where does Paul say there that "the scriptures are ALL we need to be “complete”, thoroughly equipped for everything. We do not need anything else."
2 Timothy 3:16-17 the NKJ:
“ All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE COMPLETE, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

If something is “complete,” it doesn’t need anything else. The definition I found said,
“Complete means something is FINISHED, having ALL of the necessary parts, elements or steps.”
 
Where does Paul say that the scriptures "make us complete”? 1 Tim 3:15-17 doesn’t say that.
I believe you are reading those verses in 2 Tim. From a different translation. The New King James Version says that the inspired scriptures are able to make us “COMPLETE.” Not just Equipped for every good work, but THOROUGHLY equipped for every good work. God has given us the divine scriptures and the Holy Spirit who dwells in us if we have obeyed Acts 2:38; what else is there? What more do we NEED?
 
I believe you are reading those verses in 2 Tim. From a different translation. The New King James Version says that the inspired scriptures are able to make us “COMPLETE.” Not just Equipped for every good work, but THOROUGHLY equipped for every good work. God has given us the divine scriptures and the Holy Spirit who dwells in us if we have obeyed Acts 2:38; what else is there? What more do we NEED?
Yes, I understand from Strong's Concordance that the Greek word means literally "fresh", and this by implication "perfect" in the sense of "complete":

G739
ἄρτιος
artios
ar'-tee-os
From G737; fresh, that is, (by implication) complete: - perfect.
 
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2 Timothy 3:16-17 the NKJ:
“ All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE COMPLETE, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

If something is “complete,” it doesn’t need anything else. The definition I found said,
“Complete means something is FINISHED, having ALL of the necessary parts, elements or steps.”
And yet in #42 you said ,

Eph. 4 and James 3 are both talking about “perfect” men— human beings. Are you saying the word “perfect” in 1 Cor. 13:13 is talking about a perfect man? There is no such thing unless you think it is Jesus;and I have already explained why I don’t believe that.

Paul told Timothy that the scriptures are ALL we need to be “complete”, thoroughly equipped for everything. We do not need anything else. God is not still delivering new information that the churches need. In
Jude 3 the Holy Spirit tells us that “the faith” has ONCE for all been DELIVERED to the saints. Scripture does not teach that God is continuing to give us new revelations all the time. He put EVERYTHING we need in His book—the Bible.

1Co 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
13:10 ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον (neut. sg.) τότε τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται
1Co 13:11
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
1Co 13:13
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Paul says here that when that which is perfect has come then that which is in part will be done away,,,,and then we shall see face ti face…and then I shall know just as I am known.

You say we see Jesus face to face now that the canon of scripture is compete, and you say that you know Jesus as clearly as Jesus knows you now that the canon of scripture has become complete.

Paul says in Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
4:13 μέχρι καταντήσωμεν οἱ πάντες εἰς τὴν ἑνότητα τῆς πίστεως καὶ τῆς ἐπιγνώσεως τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ εἰς ἄνδρα τέλειον εἰς μέτρον Neut. sg) ἡλικίας (fem. sg.) τοῦ πληρώματος (neut. sg.) τοῦ Χριστοῦ (masc. sg.)

That which is perfect
in Paul’s theology is the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

This
will be attained at the resurrection of the saints, when we will see Him face to cace and know Him as we are known by Him.

Did all the saints start to see Jesus face to face, and to know Jesus as He knows them, as soon as the canon was completed AD 90?

No. This won’t happen until the resurrection of the saints. Until then there will be prophecies and tongues and knowledge ; we will be knowing and prophesying in part,; we will see in a mirror (in the word) dimly.
 
I believe you are reading those verses in 2 Tim. From a different translation. The New King James Version says that the inspired scriptures are able to make us “COMPLETE.” Not just Equipped for every good work, but THOROUGHLY equipped for every good work. God has given us the divine scriptures and the Holy Spirit who dwells in us if we have obeyed Acts 2:38; what else is there? What more do we NEED?

Resurrection (1Cor. 15:19)
 
I believe you are reading those verses in 2 Tim. From a different translation. The New King James Version says that the inspired scriptures are able to make us “COMPLETE.” Not just Equipped for every good work, but THOROUGHLY equipped for every good work. God has given us the divine scriptures and the Holy Spirit who dwells in us if we have obeyed Acts 2:38; what else is there? What more do we NEED?
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17
that the man of God may be ready, thoroughly having been made ready for every good work.
3:17 ἵνα (so that) ἄρτιος (ready) ᾖ (may be) ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος (the man of God), πρὸς (towards/for) πᾶν (every) ἔργον ἀγαθὸν (good work) ἐξηρτισμένος (having been made ready)

artios comes from arti (now) which comes from airO to raise. artios is used once in the Bible. Based on its roots it seems to mean ready i.e., appropriate for the present.
exErtismenos is a perfect participle from exartizO, made up of ex (out of.) and artios (ready)i with an -iz- infix which give a causative sense, hence to make very ready.

I don’t think one should base and important theological claim on a rather unclear word that appears only once in scripture and seems to mean ready, rather than perfect. This text does not say scripture will become perfect once the canon is completed. It seems to be saying the scripture was already able to thoroughly prepare one for every good work. The canon was not complete when Paul wrote 2 Tim.
 
And yet in #42 you said ,



1Co 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
13:10 ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον (neut. sg.) τότε τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται
1Co 13:11
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
1Co 13:13
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Paul says here that when that which is perfect has come then that which is in part will be done away,,,,and then we shall see face ti face…and then I shall know just as I am known.

You say we see Jesus face to face now that the canon of scripture is compete, and you say that you know Jesus as clearly as Jesus knows you now that the canon of scripture has become complete.

Paul says in Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
4:13 μέχρι καταντήσωμεν οἱ πάντες εἰς τὴν ἑνότητα τῆς πίστεως καὶ τῆς ἐπιγνώσεως τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ εἰς ἄνδρα τέλειον εἰς μέτρον Neut. sg) ἡλικίας (fem. sg.) τοῦ πληρώματος (neut. sg.) τοῦ Χριστοῦ (masc. sg.)

That which is perfect
in Paul’s theology is the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

This
will be attained at the resurrection of the saints, when we will see Him face to cace and know Him as we are known by Him.

Did all the saints start to see Jesus face to face, and to know Jesus as He knows them, as soon as the canon was completed AD 90?

No. This won’t happen until the resurrection of the saints. Until then there will be prophecies and tongues and knowledge ; we will be knowing and prophesying in part,; we will see in a mirror (in the word) dimly.
I’d like to refer you to post #39 by Wayne NSO. He does an excellent job explaining verses I2 and 13. I couldn’t do it any better and not nearly as well.
 
I noticed a difference in the early church and the ones we have now - Paul when staying at a church for a while to preach or teach always found employment so he was not a burden financially on the church.

Today preaching and teaching are paid employment within the church.

I am not saying it is a bad thing to do this today, but we can certainly learn from Pauls example, and there are a lot of fat cats in church employment today :)
Yes, even though we have authority for preachers taking “wages” from the churches,2 Cor. 11:8, it’s still very easy to abuse the practice. The responsibility must rest on each individual preacher to make sure he is not covetous and using the church to satisfy a love of money. Still, I remember Paul talking about preachers who preach with impure motives; Paul’s attitude was, in spite of that, he was just glad that “Christ”was being preached. Phil 1:15-18. God will take care of any who abuse that privilege.
 
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Those that believe in ongoing revelation, "A word from the Lord came to me" etc, say that the "perfect" of verse 10 refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ, so the sign gifts still happen today. But by comparing verse 13 with verse 8 we see that faith and hope were to continue for a time after the spiritual gifts were abolished.
Also @Beckworth.

There is nothing in scripture that says that faith and hope will cease, while love continues forever. Paul simply says that the greatest of faith, hope and love is love.

God created the universe by faith. Faith is necessary for any relationship to be healthy. A relationship without trust/faith is one that entails distrust. Paul says that love/agapE hopes all things. Whenever someone gives a degree of freedom to others, their attitude entails hope that the free agents will make good wise choices. Where does Paul say faith per se and hope per se will end one day. He doesn't
Faith looks forward to the fulfillment of something not seen.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

Likewise, hope is waiting with expectation for something, hope that is seen is not hope. For who still hopes for what they already see and have?

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

If the "perfect" of verse 10 means the gifts end at the second coming of Jesus Christ, then how can faith and hope continue for a time after the sign gifts cease? Because what is hoped for has been realised. So all the sign gifts have to be ended before the second coming.
When the faithful are resurrected ir will be to rule over the surviving unbelieving among the nations with severity. They will spend 1000 years attempting to repair the planet and social disorder.,hoping to bring those nations to an understanding of how wonderful Jesus and the principles of His kingdom are. The saints ruling over the cities they ave been given, and will be instructed by Jesus though the Holy Spirit in their decision making. Such pleasing God through obedience to the Holy Spirit will involve them trusting Jesus and the Holy Spirit, Without faith it is impossible to please God. If anyone is going to please God beyond the resurrection, they will have to trust God beyond the resurrection. If anyone is aiming to change the hearts and behaviour beyond the resurrection, they will be hopinhg that their aims come to pass. They would not lve the nations they rule if they are indifferent to whether the nations make good wise choices.

There is no basis for your claim that faith and hope must end after the gifts, and faith and hope must end at sometime while love continues forever. There is no basis for your claim that if the above is true, then the time faith and hope end must be at the resurrection, and the time the gifts end, after which faith, hope and love continue, must be the completion of the canon of scripture..

There is nothing in scripture saying fith and hope will ever end. If faith and hope never end, then your argument for that which is perfect being the completed canon is specious.

given by the Holy Spirit to grow and prepare the Bride for the resurrection, means that the gifts must have ceased before the resurrection.
Verse 13 ends with, "but the greatest of these is charity."
In verse 8 it says "Charity never faileth".

After the second coming of Jesus Christ, when all else has ceased, charity or brotherly love remains, it never ceases.
Paul does not say love is greater because it continues longer than faith and hope.

God os love. God is also just and kind and merciful and truthful etc. The greatest of these is love, buth Godis still always just, truthful, merciful, and kind.
 
Logic dictates that the sign gifts ceased with the completion of the cannon.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Notice all cease and vanish except love or charity.

His point ends by saying:

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Those that believe in ongoing revelation, "A word from the Lord came to me" etc, say that the "perfect" of verse 10 refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ, so the sign gifts still happen today. But by comparing verse 13 with verse 8 we see that faith and hope were to continue for a time after the spiritual gifts were abolished.
Another way to look at 1 Cor. 12-13 is as an explanation of the purpose and orderly seemly exercise of the Holy Spirit’s gifts in assemblies. maybe Paul is saying that in meetings we may receive a word of knowledge, which happens and ends or ceases; to be followed by another gift, maybe, a tongue, which will end or cease; followed by a prophecy which ends or ceases. But all the way through the meeting love should be practised and even beyond the meeting. Unlike prophecies, tongues and words of knowledge that come in meetings and then cease, love pervades everything and is the constant medium in which the saints live and move and have their being: it should abide all the time. And a tongue or prophecy or word of knowledge or healing that is delivered without love is a discordant note in an assembly of Christians.

Maybe when Paul says that we know ek merous (out of a part/role assigned to us), he means the when we bring a word of knowledge or a teaching in an assembly, we are fulfilling a special unique role the Holy Spirit has assigned to us in that meeting at that time.
Maybe when Paul says that we prophesy ek merous (out of a part/role assigned to us), he means the when we prophesy in a meeting it is us fulfilling a special unique role the Holy Spirit has assigned to us in that meeting at that time.
Maybe when Paul says that "when that which is perfect has come, then that which is ex merous (out of a part/role assigned to us) will become unemployed, he means that at some point this distribution of gifts severally as He wills no longer be necessary because we will all, from the least to the greatest, have clear and direct communication with our Lord and see Him face to face. This will certainly be the case during the case in millennial reign. And it is certainly not yet the case among the saints today, despite us having the complete canon of scripture in our hands.

Perhaps Paul says that "now abide faith, hope, love, these three,) he means that unlike the gifts that come and go severally in meetings, (prophecies may be without effect (karargEthEsontai) tongues may pause (pausontai) a words of knowledge or teachings may be without effect (katargEthEsontai) but faith, hope and love persist with every saint throughout the meetings and outside the meetings.

If these thing be so, then “that which is perfect’ would be our relationship with God that is no longer seeing Him through a glass darkly, but seeing Him face to face. No longer knowing Him out of the role He gives us to fulfil in a meeting, but knowing him as we are nown by Him. This kind of perfect communion with God is not happening today through the complete canon of the Bible. Nor through the present ministry of the Holy Spirit in churches today. It will certainly be the case when we have our bodies like His resurrection body.Maybe it will be the case when we die and go to dwell with Him in a heavenly body. But it is certainly not the case yet, even though we have had the complete canon for 19 centuries.

faith, hope and love
 
John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

Πέτρος Pétros, pet'-ros; apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:—Peter, rock. Compare G2786.

Stone here for Peter is a piece of rock.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

πέτρα pétra, pet'-ra; feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively):—rock.

The interpretation for Peter being called a stone it is a piece of rock.

For people that think when Jesus said upon this rock I will build my Church that He was speaking about Peter this rock is interpreted as a mass of rock not a piece of rock.

The same interpretation as Christ being the spiritual Rock.

And of course Jesus is the chief cornerstone so all the Church is built upon Him.

If it is speaking of Peter it would mean he was the first person added to the Church and then the rest of the saints are built upon him.

But since Peter being interpreted a piece of rock and rock in Matthew is mass of rock then it has to be Christ.

For how can Peter be a mass of rock being a mere mortal man.
Matthew 16:18 should be read together with the rest of the Gospels, because Jesus Himself explains Peter's role.

And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18, ASV)

Jesus is clearly speaking directly to Peter. There is an intentional connection between Peter's name and the "rock." Peter is being entrusted with a unique and foundational role in the establishment of the Church. Yet notice that Jesus does not say, "Peter will build the Church." He says, "I will build my church." The Church belongs to Christ, and Christ is its builder. Peter is the servant through whom Christ begins that work.

This becomes even clearer after the resurrection. Three times Jesus tells Peter:

Feed my lambs... Tend my sheep... Feed my sheep. (John 21:15-17, ASV)

Notice the repeated word "my." They are Christ's lambs and Christ's sheep, not Peter's. Peter is given the responsibility to care for the flock, teach it, protect it, and strengthen it, but ownership always remains with Christ.

Jesus had already identified Himself as the Shepherd:

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep. (John 10:11, ASV)

There cannot be two Good Shepherds. Christ remains the Good Shepherd, while Peter serves as an under-shepherd carrying out Christ's instructions.

Peter himself later confirms this understanding. Writing to the elders, he says:

Tend the flock of God which is among you... neither as lording it over the charge allotted to you, but making yourselves ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall be manifested, ye shall receive the crown of glory that fadeth not away. (1 Peter 5:2-4, ASV)

Peter never calls himself the chief shepherd. Instead, he points to Jesus as the Chief Shepherd and describes all church leaders, including himself, as servants caring for God's flock.

The book of Acts shows Peter carrying out exactly the commission Jesus gave him. He preaches the first Gospel sermon at Pentecost (Acts 2), strengthens the believers, opens the door of the Kingdom to the Samaritans (Acts 8), and is the first apostle sent by God to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles through Cornelius (Acts 10). Peter stands at the beginning of the Church's earthly mission, just as Jesus promised.

None of this makes Peter the owner of the Church or replaces Christ as its Head. The Church always belongs to Jesus.

What Scripture also never says is that Paul became the head of the Church or replaced Peter as the primary shepherd appointed by Christ. Paul was called to a unique ministry, especially among the Gentiles, but nowhere does Jesus say to Paul what He said to Peter: "upon this rock I will build my church" or "Feed my sheep." Those commissions were given to Peter.

The New Testament consistently teaches that Christ alone is the Head of the Church. Peter was entrusted with laying its apostolic foundation and caring for Christ's flock. Paul served within that same Church under the authority of the same Lord. Neither Peter nor Paul replaced Christ, and neither became the owner of His Church.

Matthew 16:18, John 21:15-17, and the book of Acts fit together perfectly. Jesus chose Peter to lead in establishing and strengthening the Church according to His own teaching, while Jesus Himself remained the Builder, the Cornerstone, the Good Shepherd, the Chief Shepherd, and the only Head of the Church. Peter's authority was never independent of Christ; it existed to faithfully carry out the will of the One who said, "I will build my church."
 
So, a church with "church of Christ" on the sign?
I know that Denominationalism does not believe that the name of the church is important. But The Bible indicates differently. And in our society names are VERY important. How would YOU feel if your wife wore some one else’s name? The church that Christ built belongs to Him. He is the builder and author; shouldn’t it be called by His name? Is Christ pleased when men call His church after Martin Luther? Did Martin Luther build the church. Did Martin Luther die for the church? Eph.5:We see in the New Testament the congregations WERE called churches of Christ. Roman’s 16:16.
The church that Christ built is referred to as His “BRIDE”. He is the “BRIDEGROOM.” Ephesians 5:24-27, 2Cor. 11:2, Revelation 19:7-9, 21:1-2, Mark 2:19. Shouldn’t the bride wear the name of her husband?

Since I believe “authority” from God is important, I know we have authority from the Bible to call the church after Christ; other names in the Bible used to designate Christ’s church are: the church of God- Acts 20:28, church of the Living God- 1 Tim. 3:15, and church of the firstborn- Hebrews 12:23.
I would have no problem calling the church any of these names since the Holy Spirit calls them that. When you leave the authority of the Bible and start doing whatever YOU think is good, you end up with over 300 different names for the church which is what we have in Denominationalism today. We can all be United, but it requires all of us to go back to the Bible and do what is authorized by God.

God gives us a warning: “Every plant that my Heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up.” Matt. 15:13.

The correct Biblical name for Christ’s church is not the only thing that identifies the true church of Christ. It must also be Biblical in its worship, work, organization and doctrine. But it is ONE characteristic of the true church that is very important.