It wasn't a warning, but a statement. God's does not lie to get one to pray. See Jonah. Did God have every intention of overthrowing Nineveh? His word that Jonah preached was, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." In forty days, was Nineveh overthrown? Nope. Why not? God changed his mind to overthrow them because they believed his word and repented. It really is that simple.
Calvinism is Gospel !
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Nice try but our comments are on here to be seen by all. That's the thing with the internet....
I quoted scripture, you said no. I said all scripture is true and you said I was the one saying no, which never happened. That means you lied.
The Bible is true, all of it.... Even when it tells us to believe in Jesus.
Jesus did not think that repenting and believing were “works”.
He commanded people to repent and believe, not “get born again, and then repent and believe”.
Jesus would not command people to do something that Calvinists claim they cannot do.
Mark 1:14, 15
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
And true repentance is in turning from works for salvation unto a full and complete trust in Christ as The Savior for salvation.
That kind of repentance only comes to someone as a free gift to them from God, and therefore, not a work.
Repentance cannot be a gift from God, if Jesus is commanding people to repent, rather than “receive the gift of repentance”.
Calvinism cannot accept the simple statements of scripture. It has to add words to it.
Nice try but you mis-quoted me.
Belief must be given to someone by God as a free gift that comes from salvation but does not bring salvation
[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
[1Pe 1:21 KJV] 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
As a gift from God is the only way it can be given because otherwise it would be the work of man:
[Act 5:31 KJV] 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
[Act 11:18 KJV] 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
[Rom 2:4 KJV] 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
[Heb 6:1 KJV] 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
The stitch together a bunch of verses, out of context, and viola "total depravity" a very feeble to support this concept.
but it is plainly obvious Unconditional Election has zero support in scripture ... but you cannot have one without the other.
Agreed, ready for the trash heap.
“Give them repentance” does not mean that God arbitrarily forced them to repent or that God put repentance into them.
People repent when they hear the scriptures and decide to obey them.
Otherwise, you have irresponsible robots that God controls, violating their free will, and forcing them to love Him.
Being forced like a puppet to serve God does not bring any glory to God at all.
Jesus did not preach “hope that God will give you repentance, so you will believe the gospel.”
Since Jesus preached “repent and believe”, repenting and believing cannot be a work of man to earn salvation.
Mark 1:14, 15
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
God’s goodness leads us to repentance, it does not put repentance into us.
[Rom 2:4 KJV] Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
It must be hard to accept that they have to meet the same condition of faith, enter through the narrow gate, like the rest of us,
Apparently the people who refuse, hate God, are totally depraved do not have to repent and humble themselves to enter through the gate, no not them..................they have a special secret pass because they are the elect!!
Precisely... It says "God wants faith, not works" showing a clear distinction between the two...
Ok... Keep cherry picking verses, ignoring the rest of the Bible so you can mold the word of God around your organized religion
A. If you believe Paul was setting up a "stark textual contrast"between TWO SEPARATE KINDS OF CALLS , one which is outward and human and the other which is inward and divine in hich verses does Paul does make this point? Chapter 7 is about the inadequacy of the law to produce life in Him. After struggling with and failing to do what he knew he SHOULD do he finally came to the conclusion (at the end of that chapter 7) that HE could not deliver himself but needed Christ to deliver Him.
B. Chapter 8 begins with how his experience radically changed once he became a believer in Jesus. The very first thing that changed was that he was "set free from the law of sin and death." Thus began his new way of life walking in the Spirit, which he describes throughout chapter 8
C. Do you see any place where he takes the time to explain the "TWO CALLS" you have alluded to? He does not say anything about this.
The sequence of God's redemptive plan outlined in Romans 8 BEGINS with the person already IN CHRIST.
D Paul introduces the chapter saying There is therefore NOW no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST JESUS. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life IN CHRIST JESUS has set us free from the law of sin and death (Romans 8:1-2)
Jesus what follows is a description of what it is like to walk in the Spirit. The Spirit is mentioned in almost every verse.
To say God Himself issued two calls one of which He deprives of power rendering it INEFFECTUAL makes God deceitful - like a counterfeiter.
Romand 8:28-30 is NOT separate from the spiritual walk we commence once the Spirit is no longer alienated from us.
The ENTIRE chapter is not about living apart from God but living BY the Spirit. He guides, empowers and fills us so we can walk as Christ would have us. The New Covenant is not just about receiving forgiveness. It is also about having His nature of love moved into our hearts
Chapter 8 begins with being IN CHRIST which, according to Jesus Himself and His beloved disciple John refers to our covenant union with Him. In John 15:4-5 Jesus tells us to: 4 Abide [remain, continue, stay] in Him, and He will remain [abide, continue, stay] in US.
The word abide in this verse 4 is in the imperative mood which makes it a command. It is also in the present tense. which, ordinarily, tells less about when the action occurs as HOW it unfolds. Paul's use of the Greek present tense indicates that the required action is supposed to go on continually or repeatedly
Here is His promise of abundant life. At the same time, He also does not deny that there is a possibility of our NOT REMAINING IN HIM:
6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.
(John 15:6)
So far, you have not yet shown yourself to be a text-critical workman. Most of your points cannot be found in the written text but have been imported from extra-Biblical sources like Calvin and Luther. You have become so blinded by confirmation bias that you can no longer read the scriptures any other way.
1). Since the written text of scripture says NOTHING about an outward versus inward call I reject the way you have framed this
question.
2). Second, I never said, nor do I believe that mankind comes to a saving knowledge of the truth totally INDEPENDENTLY.
3). The Holy Spirit plays an essential role in PERSUADING us that we are sinners, and in BEARING WITNESS TO US that His claims are
true and he really does have the power to save us if we will but trust HIm
4). Although the Spirit's influence is absolutely necessary in this process it is not sufficient since we must believe the truth and submit
ourselves to Him.
5). The Holy Spirit's influence is not irresistable. The Bible says we can RESIST, HARDEN OUR HEARTS, GRIEVE AND QUENCH the Holy
Spirit's influence
6). Next when the word has God saying All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
this gesture is meant to convey God's great mercy and condescention
7). Saying that God Himself was blocking their reception of the truth make His "reaching out" to them theater.
8). If God were simultaneously hardening their hearts then it would be gross insincerity and deception, a mere game
9). These verses say that EVERYONE who heard the report DID NOT BELIEVE IT but we already knew that SOME BELIEVED WHILE OTHERS
DID NOT
10) Where we differ is on the WHY. Since I believe mankind by virtue of having been created in the image of God was given the gift of self determination or moral agency. I can easily explain their resistance as being hard headed and unwilling to mend their ways.
11). You have to resort to claiming the existence of some sort of polluted ESSENCE
12). Let us consider the times when Jesus called people. Not everyone left all to follow after Him. Many times the scriptures tell us WHY they remained in disobedience and their excuses were not mysterious. One had bought a field, another had purchased oxen, and a third had just married. These excuses reveal misplaced priorities and a lack of commitment to God's kingdom.
12). In your scheme, their different responses were due to the fact that GOD gave them DIFFERENT KINDS of CALLS.
Some were given true calls that had the grace to compell obedience while others were given callings which appeared to be INDENTICAL but which God had deprived of power. This strikes me as being deceptive. However, In order to preserve what you see as God's POWER you find it necessary to make God responsible for our sins.
13). Since people are punished for not obeying this makes God responsible both for their rebellion and for ensuring their punishment
I don't know anyone who has truly been born again who thinks they were chosen because of some innate goodness in them. Once the Holy Spirit searches the heart all that kind of thinking goes away
Most do. Same with Armies.
Calvies~~ Don't do works?.......Not really saved.
Armies~~Don't do works?.......Lose salvation.
Doesn't matter to either that they are teaching BELIEVERS this crap.
You accuse me of importing extra-biblical philosophies, yet your framework forces you to rewrite the plain text of Scripture to preserve human autonomy. Let’s look at the text of Romans and John to see which position honors the words on the page.
1. The Direct Exegesis of Romans 8:28-30
You claim Romans 8 is merely a description of the Christian walk and applies only "corporately" to those already in Christ. But you are ignoring the precise, sequential verbs Paul uses. Paul creates an unbreakable grammatical chain:
\(\text{Foreknown}\rightarrow \text{Predestined}\rightarrow \text{Called}\rightarrow \text{Justified}\rightarrow \text{Glorified}\)
Paul uses the Greek Aorist tense for every single link in this chain. In Greek grammar, this views the actions as a complete, certain reality in the mind of God.
- Notice the text does not say: "Some of those whom He called, if they chose to cooperate, were justified."
- It says: "Whom He called, them He also justified."
2. The Total Inability of the Natural Man
You state that the Holy Spirit "persuades" us, but that His influence is "not sufficient" until man adds his own independent willpower. This completely ignores how Paul describes the natural human condition earlier in Romans:
- Romans 3:11: "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."
- Romans 8:7-8: "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
3. Resolving Romans 10 and God's "Stretched Forth Hands"
You claim that if God outwardly stretches His hands to a disobedient people while withholding inward, regenerating grace, it makes God "sincere in a game" or "deceitful."
But you are confusing God’s preceptive will (what He commands and takes pleasure in) with His decretive will (what He sovereignly decrees to happen). God genuinely commands all men everywhere to repent, and He genuinely takes pleasure in obedience. However, Scripture explicitly states that God routinely hardens hearts and shuts eyes as a judicial punishment for sin, while outwardly commanding obedience.
- Look at Romans 9:18: "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."
- Look at Jesus' own words in Mark 4:11-12, where He states He speaks in parables specifically lest the crowds should understand and be converted.
4. John 15 and the Imperative to "Abide"
You point to the imperative command to "abide" in John 15 as proof of human self-determination. But in systematic theology, a command does not imply ability. God commands us to be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16); does that mean we have the inherent ability to be sinlessly perfect? Of course not. The commands of God show us our duty and our utter dependency on Him.
Furthermore, you cut John 15 short. In verse 5, Jesus states unequivocally: "Without me ye can do nothing." If a person fails to abide and is cast into the fire, it is because they were a fruitless, superficial branch who lacked the true, vital sap of the Holy Spirit from the beginning—echoing 1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us."
Conclusion
Your position requires a God who tries His best to save everyone but ultimately fails based on the whim of human free will. The biblical text presents a far more majestic truth: Christ did not die to make salvation possible for those who choose it; He died to actually save His people (Matthew 1:21). His call is not a weak plea; it is the sovereign voice that raises the dead to life.
Your quoting of just a few words from my post ("Calvinists teach that some believers are doomed to hell. ") give totally the wrong impression. Calvinists do not teach that. Here are those words in the context in which I wrote them:
"I am sure all Christians of all persuasions believe that sinners who persist in their unbelief are doomed to hell, but that is a different matter than saying that Calvinists teach that some believers are doomed to hell. They don't believe that."
You're arguing against a caricature of your own making, not what scripture actually teaches.
God doesn't force robots. He resurrects dead hearts. Scripture says we are spiritually dead until God makes us alive (Ephesians 2:1-5). When someone is regenerated, God gives them a new heart, a new spirit, and a renewed mind. Repentance is the product of that transformation. We turn from our own dead works and trust Christ as Savior because God changed our desires, not because we are forced like a puppet.
Your logic that a command equals ability is completely flawed. Jesus commands us to be perfect (Matthew 5:48)—does that mean you have the free will to be sinless right now? Of course not. The command exposes our inability and is part of God driving us to Him. He is the one who ultimately grants repentance (2 Timothy 2:25), that is, if we are of those to whom repentance was intended. Try focusing on the actual theology next time instead of bad analogies. The scriptures are perfectly clear on this matter. The point stands.
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