Was Judas Iscariot saved, or was he not?

[ewq1938]

What does scripture say about Judas?


1: Judas was a devil..................................John 6:70-71
2: Judas was a traitor................................Luke 6:16
3: Judas was a betrayer.............................Multiple scriptures.
4: Judas was a thief..................................John 12:6
5: Judas didn't care for the poor..................John 12:6
6: Judas was spiritually unclean..................John 13:11
7: Judas guilty of a greater sin...................John 19:11
8: Judas is a wicked man............................Psalms 109:6
9: Judas is condemned...............................Psalms 109:7
10: Judas is lost........................................John 17:12
11: Judas is the son of perdition..................John 17:12
12: Judas' prayer is sin................................Psalms 109:7
13: Judas deserves no mercy.......................Psalms 109:12
14: Judas committed suicide........................Matthew 27:5
15: Judas influenced by Satan......................John 13:2
16: Judas had Satan within him....................Luke 22:3-6
17: Judas harmed Christ..............................John 13:18, Psalms 41:9
18: Judas better off never born....................Mark 14:18-2, Matthew 26:24
19: Judas knew he sinned against Jesus........Matthew 27:3-5
20: Judas' habitation to be desolate.............Acts 1:20, Psalms 69:25

The scriptures say he is a lost and condemned son of perdition and deserves no mercy so that's what his fate is.


Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

 

[Godsgood]

If they have new life in Jesus, then I would say they have been born again.

If the different groups within Christianity are all "born again," as you said, why do they have different understandings of the Lord Jesus? Specifically, why are there four different views about who Jesus is?

Here's a clear and natural English translation of the four views you listed:

1. Jesus is only a man and is not God.
2. Jesus is a Mighty God, but not the Almighty God, because His Father is the Almighty God.
3. The name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ; therefore, the name of God is Jesus Christ. This is known as the Oneness doctrine. There is only one God, who has revealed Himself in different manifestations or modes.
4. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct persons. God the Father is different from God the Son, and God the Son is different from God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is both fully God and fully man.

These four statements represent different theological views found among various Christian groups, particularly regarding the nature of Jesus and the doctrine of God. Some of these positions are accepted by mainstream Christianity, while others are held by specific denominations and are considered non-Trinitarian or alternative interpretations.

And why do they interpret the same Holy Bible differently, resulting in different doctrines and different teachings about the way of salvation?

 

[Godsgood]

So you disagree with Paul when he asserts that there is no one who is righteous but that ALL have sinned? If Sin is merely a moral failing, then your friend might well be sinless, but if morality is not the issue but rather a side effect of the issue of Sin, then their upright moral behavior merely conceals the need for them to be regenerated by the HS.

Yes, everyone has sinned.
May I ask, what is the sin that all people have committed before God?
That will help us understand what it truly means to be born again.

 

[Godsgood]

Yes, of course there are new ways invented all the time, and new technologies. I think the meaning of Ecclesiastes 1:9 is that the pleasures or satisfaction that new inventions bring is no more lasting than older inventions.

I agree that Scripture is the final authority. I don't see that what I quoted from John Gill's commentary disagrees with what we find in Scripture.

Looking at the thread title again, I think you and I seem to have wandered from the subject of whether Judas Iscariot was saved or not, so I'll leave it there.

Yes, of course there are new ways invented all the time, and new technologies. I think the meaning of Ecclesiastes 1:9 is that the pleasures or satisfaction that new inventions bring is no more lasting than older inventions.
As time goes by, the human mind continues to develop and advance. That is why people keep inventing new technologies. It does not necessarily mean they were dissatisfied with what had already been created. I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is related to Ecclesiastes 1:9.


I agree that Scripture is the final authority. I don't see that what I quoted from John Gill's commentary disagrees with what we find in Scripture.
I believe that if John Gill knew the one true God, then what he shared would be only what God had revealed to him, and his teaching would be for our spiritual life. However, if he did not know the one true God, then what he wrote, which you quoted, pertains only to physical life and has nothing to do with spiritual life.


Looking at the thread title again, I think you and I seem to have wandered from the subject of whether Judas Iscariot was saved or not, so I'll leave it there.
Regarding our subject, God has already revealed through his words that Judas is not saved because he did not repent of his act of making himself equal with God when he dipped his hand into the bowl with the Lord.
Rather, it seemed as though he became proud before the Lord when he left them and no longer continued to go with them.

 

[rewriter]

Yes, everyone has sinned.
May I ask, what is the sin that all people have committed before God?
That will help us understand what it truly means to be born again.

Modern physics has established that all humans radiate electromagnetic waves. These waves will interact with any and all other electromagnetic waves they encounter, in other words the rest of creation. Now that means that there is no human that is not potentially influencing every other part of creation, including all other humans. Thus, whatever someone does to another person they are doing to themselves even though they believe they are distinct separate entities, this belief being a very specific lie. Now Romans 1:25 tells us that people rejected THE truth of God for THE lie and then lists several examples of sinful behavior.

Now, can you identify any other single specific lie, other than that you are a distinct separable entity who can do things without affecting other humans or if they do impact others that such actions do not impact you? Remember, do unto others as you wish others to do to you. Believing you are separable contradicts this commandment. This action is universal and fits the description of what causes all the problems, do you have a better candidate for what is Sin?

 

[Dino246]

If the different groups within Christianity are all "born again," as you said, why do they have different understandings of the Lord Jesus? Specifically, why are there four different views about who Jesus is?

Here's a clear and natural English translation of the four views you listed:

1. Jesus is only a man and is not God.
2. Jesus is a Mighty God, but not the Almighty God, because His Father is the Almighty God.
3. The name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ; therefore, the name of God is Jesus Christ. This is known as the Oneness doctrine. There is only one God, who has revealed Himself in different manifestations or modes.
4. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct persons. God the Father is different from God the Son, and God the Son is different from God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is both fully God and fully man.

These four statements represent different theological views found among various Christian groups, particularly regarding the nature of Jesus and the doctrine of God. Some of these positions are accepted by mainstream Christianity, while others are held by specific denominations and are considered non-Trinitarian or alternative interpretations.

And why do they interpret the same Holy Bible differently, resulting in different doctrines and different teachings about the way of salvation?

You say "groups within Christianity", but the first two groups you describe are clearly not Christian.

 

[DavidLamb]

If the different groups within Christianity are all "born again," as you said, why do they have different understandings of the Lord Jesus? Specifically, why are there four different views about who Jesus is?

Here's a clear and natural English translation of the four views you listed:

1. Jesus is only a man and is not God.
2. Jesus is a Mighty God, but not the Almighty God, because His Father is the Almighty God.
3. The name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ; therefore, the name of God is Jesus Christ. This is known as the Oneness doctrine. There is only one God, who has revealed Himself in different manifestations or modes.
4. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct persons. God the Father is different from God the Son, and God the Son is different from God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is both fully God and fully man.

These four statements represent different theological views found among various Christian groups, particularly regarding the nature of Jesus and the doctrine of God. Some of these positions are accepted by mainstream Christianity, while others are held by specific denominations and are considered non-Trinitarian or alternative interpretations.

And why do they interpret the same Holy Bible differently, resulting in different doctrines and different teachings about the way of salvation?

Sadly there are people who call themselves Christians who don't believe what the Bible says about Who Jesus is. Jesus is fully God, and He, since His incarnation, is fully Man, too. I certainly didn't mean that people who believe that Jesus Christ was "just a man", or that He is not almighty, is born agan.

 

[DavidLamb]

Yes, everyone has sinned.
May I ask, what is the sin that all people have committed before God?
That will help us understand what it truly means to be born again.

Sinners clearly commit different sins, but one of which they are all guilty is that of unbelief.

 

[Godsgood]

Sinners clearly commit different sins, but one of which they are all guilty is that of unbelief.

I think this kind of conversation is good. Where questions are answered based on what is understood, while also explaining the reasons behind the answers.

A good example is the conversation between the Lord and Nicodemus in John chapter 3.
Through that dialogue, the Lord gradually revealed the truth to Nicodemus, and Nicodemus accepted it.
If possible, I hope our conversations could lead to that kind of outcome as well.

But ultimately, God alone knows.

 

[Godsgood]

Sadly there are people who call themselves Christians who don't believe what the Bible says about Who Jesus is. Jesus is fully God, and He, since His incarnation, is fully Man, too. I certainly didn't mean that people who believe that Jesus Christ was "just a man", or that He is not almighty, is born agan.

From what I understand from what you said, you consider people who believe that Jesus is only a man and not God, and those who believe that Jesus is only a mighty God and not the Almighty God, as not being born again.
Am I understanding you correctly?

If I am, how do you conclude that these people merely call themselves Christians but do not believe what the Bible says about who Jesus is? After all, they did not invent these beliefs. They believe they are based on what is written in the Holy Scriptures.

For example, they point to passages where God the Father Himself says that God is not a man.
They present this as evidence that Jesus is a man and not God.
NUMBERS 23:19
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?


Regarding the belief that Jesus is only the Mighty God while His Father is the Almighty God, they also believe this is based on Scripture. They point out that God the Father Himself makes this distinction, and they understand His words to mean that the Father is the Almighty God.
2 CORINTHIANS 6:18
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

God the Father said to Isaiah.
ISAIAH 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


From my understanding of points #3 and #4, since you did not mention them, you consider them to be Christians and born again.
Am I correct in my understanding?

3. The name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ; therefore, the name of God is Jesus Christ. This is known as the Oneness doctrine. There is only one God, who has revealed Himself in different manifestations or modes.

4. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct persons. God the Father is different from God the Son, and God the Son is different from God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is both fully God and fully man.


Regarding points #3 and #4, which you did not mention, I think this is where your belief about who Jesus is can be found. Am I correct?

Which of these beliefs do you hold regarding who Jesus is?

I hope you can answer each question.

 

[Godsgood]

Sinners clearly commit different sins, but one of which they are all guilty is that of unbelief.

Could you please provide more explanation regarding this? Your answer seems a bit too general, and I would like to understand your point more clearly.

 

[rewriter]

Sinners clearly commit different sins, but one of which they are all guilty is that of unbelief.

Paul, in Romans 1:25, links numerous sins to believing one specific lie. Believing this lie would seem to lead to all sins. so are not all sins simply variations on just one single Sin which all are guilty of as opposed to be a variety of different ones? Can a person break just one of the Ten Commandments, or is breaking a single one, breaking them all.

 

[Dino246]

I think this kind of conversation is good. Where questions are answered based on what is understood, while also explaining the reasons behind the answers.

Yet with me you continually render this kind of conversation impossible by making baseless accusations and refusing to provide evidence.

Again, you demonstrate your hypocrisy.

 

[DavidLamb]

From what I understand from what you said, you consider people who believe that Jesus is only a man and not God, and those who believe that Jesus is only a mighty God and not the Almighty God, as not being born again.
Am I understanding you correctly?

Yes.

If I am, how do you conclude that these people merely call themselves Christians but do not believe what the Bible says about who Jesus is? After all, they did not invent these beliefs. They believe they are based on what is written in the Holy Scriptures.

For example, they point to passages where God the Father Himself says that God is not a man.
They present this as evidence that Jesus is a man and not God.
NUMBERS 23:19
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

But there are plenty of Scripture passages that teach quite clearly that Jesus Christ is God and that He became flesh. An example s John 1:

(Joh 1:1-3 NKJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

(Joh 1:14 NKJV) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

The people you are talking about would have to ignore a passage like that.

Regarding the belief that Jesus is only the Mighty God while His Father is the Almighty God, they also believe this is based on Scripture. They point out that God the Father Himself makes this distinction, and they understand His words to mean that the Father is the Almighty God.
2 CORINTHIANS 6:18
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

That is God saying He would be a Father to His people. Other verses tell us that we are His children by adoption. For instance:

(Rom 8:14-15 NKJV) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

As for Jesus Christ being merely mighty while the Father is almighty, Colosians says of Jesus:

(Col 2:9 NKJV) For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

God the Father said to Isaiah.
ISAIAH 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


From my understanding of points #3 and #4, since you did not mention them, you consider them to be Christians and born again.
Am I correct in my understanding?

I didn't reply to 3 because I don't really know much about Oneness doctrine.

3. The name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ; therefore, the name of God is Jesus Christ. This is known as the Oneness doctrine. There is only one God, who has revealed Himself in different manifestations or modes.

4. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct persons. God the Father is different from God the Son, and God the Son is different from God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is both fully God and fully man.


Regarding points #3 and #4, which you did not mention, I think this is where your belief about who Jesus is can be found. Am I correct?

I agree with Point 4.

Which of these beliefs do you hold regarding who Jesus is?

I hope you can answer each question.

I believe that Jesus Christ is fully God, and since His incarnation, also fully Man, as John 1 states.

 

[DavidLamb]

Could you please provide more explanation regarding this? Your answer seems a bit too general, and I would like to understand your point more clearly.

I meant that not ever sinner is the same. For example, some sinners commit murder, some tell lies, some steal, some mock God,, and so on. But all sinners, until they are saved, are guilty of the sin of unbelief.

 

[rewriter]

Yes.

But there are plenty of Scripture passages that teach quite clearly that Jesus Christ is God and that He became flesh. An example s John 1:

(Joh 1:1-3 NKJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

(Joh 1:14 NKJV) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

The people you are talking about would have to ignore a passage like that.


That is God saying He would be a Father to His people. Other verses tell us that we are His children by adoption. For instance:

(Rom 8:14-15 NKJV) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

As for Jesus Christ being merely mighty while the Father is almighty, Colosians says of Jesus:

(Col 2:9 NKJV) For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;



I didn't reply to 3 because I don't really know much about Oneness doctrine.

I agree with Point 4.

I believe that Jesus Christ is fully God, and since His incarnation, also fully Man, as John 1 states.

Then you are proclaiming that an unknown number of people who were accepted as believers prior to the Council of Chalcedon in 451 were not true believers, including members of multiple church councils. Yes, Jesus was declared God at the first Council of Nicaea, but that appears to have been at the instigation of the pagan emperor who bought agreement. Numerous other councils both before and after denied Jesus's divinity. Even worse, the rulings of the Council of Chalcedon were for the churches within the Roman Empire, and not binding on any churches outside the empire, so again, untold numbers of people who belonged to churches were not believers according to your decision.

I would observe that if it was so obvious in scripture that it would not have taken a few hundred years and the financial support and military powers of a pagan for the early church to realize what the scriptures said. Now once the official stance of the church is settled it becomes easy to justify the stance, and over time for that stance to become "obvious", but is it really?

 

[Godsgood]

I meant that not ever sinner is the same. For example, some sinners commit murder, some tell lies, some steal, some mock God,, and so on. But all sinners, until they are saved, are guilty of the sin of unbelief.

Violating and disobeying God's commandments are sins. Is that correct?

 

[Godsgood]

Yet with me you continually render this kind of conversation impossible by making baseless accusations and refusing to provide evidence.

Again, you demonstrate your hypocrisy.

From the very beginning, the Lord has already revealed your attitude. Whenever someone disagrees with your beliefs, you immediately respond with harsh and insulting words. How can there be a respectful and meaningful discussion under those circumstances?

Who would be convinced by your message if this is how you treat those who question you? Even someone who is not a "lost sheep" would likely find it difficult to believe you, let alone someone who is searching for the truth.

So let's have a respectful conversation and see where the Lord leads it.

 

[Godsgood]

Yes.

But there are plenty of Scripture passages that teach quite clearly that Jesus Christ is God and that He became flesh. An example s John 1:

(Joh 1:1-3 NKJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

(Joh 1:14 NKJV) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

The people you are talking about would have to ignore a passage like that.


That is God saying He would be a Father to His people. Other verses tell us that we are His children by adoption. For instance:

(Rom 8:14-15 NKJV) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

As for Jesus Christ being merely mighty while the Father is almighty, Colosians says of Jesus:

(Col 2:9 NKJV) For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;



I didn't reply to 3 because I don't really know much about Oneness doctrine.

I agree with Point 4.

I believe that Jesus Christ is fully God, and since His incarnation, also fully Man, as John 1 states.

But there are plenty of Scripture passages that teach quite clearly that Jesus Christ is God and that He became flesh. An example s John 1:

(Joh 1:1-3 NKJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

(Joh 1:14 NKJV) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
The people you are talking about would have to ignore a passage like that.
In my opinion, the truth is not determined by who can quote the most words from Scripture. John 1:1 says that the Word was God. Therefore, if even a single word of what is written is ignored or dismissed, then God Himself is being disregarded.

That is why we cannot simply believe what appears to have the most supporting verses while ignoring even one part of God's Word. Every word of Scripture deserves to be taken seriously.

If they disregard the many things that are written in Scripture, and we, on the other hand, disregard even a single thing that is written, then I believe we are no different. We would both be guilty of disregarding God.

That is why I believe we should not ignore any part of God's Word, whether it is many passages or even just one. Every word that God has spoken deserves to be accepted and obeyed.

 

[Godsgood]

Yes.

But there are plenty of Scripture passages that teach quite clearly that Jesus Christ is God and that He became flesh. An example s John 1:

(Joh 1:1-3 NKJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

(Joh 1:14 NKJV) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

The people you are talking about would have to ignore a passage like that.


That is God saying He would be a Father to His people. Other verses tell us that we are His children by adoption. For instance:

(Rom 8:14-15 NKJV) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

As for Jesus Christ being merely mighty while the Father is almighty, Colosians says of Jesus:

(Col 2:9 NKJV) For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;



I didn't reply to 3 because I don't really know much about Oneness doctrine.

I agree with Point 4.

I believe that Jesus Christ is fully God, and since His incarnation, also fully Man, as John 1 states.

That is God saying He would be a Father to His people. Other verses tell us that we are His children by adoption. For instance:

(Rom 8:14-15 NKJV) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

As for Jesus Christ being merely mighty while the Father is almighty, Colosians says of Jesus:

(Col 2:9 NKJV) For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
From what I understand from your explanation, you believe that Jesus is Almighty God. Am I correct?

If that is your position, then how do you explain Isaiah 9:6, where God the Father Himself refers to Jesus as "Mighty God" rather than "Almighty God"?