Doesn't Living Like the Devil After Being Saved Disprove Once Saved Always Saved?

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Going by the caption of this post -
How does one reconcile “once saved, always saved” with cases where, for example, a pastor, religious leader of some sort or even a layman acquaintance of yours lives in open sin and even claims God sanctioned their ungodly relationship.

Obviously, anyone who could live like the devil or do as you suggest here - has never known God. The Bible teaches OSAS but when you see someone fall away from the faith, it proves their conversion was false. That one deceived themselves.

If a true believer sins, (you suggested err - don't soften sin - sin is sin). This can and does happen because of the sin nature that is still in the flesh. One should guide that believer back into the way. This is not the same thing as apostatizing.

Indeed? How do you know anyone is saved or not just by looking at them and what they're doing or saying? Is it the external by which you judge them, what most call their "fruit"?

In other words, if you see a neighbor who says he was once saved, and then he hits upon a stretch in his life where he "lives like the devil," you can say that you personally know that he was never really saved in the first place?

What about all the rest of his life that you may or may not see, up to the point he takes his last breath? Is that what places the finality upon your judgement of him if he continues in his sinful state up to the point of death?

I'm asking because I've heard all this before and most...they stumble about with justifications for what they could never know, all while avoiding this:

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So, that man or woman was saved, and then withdrew...for whatever reason, right up to their last breath, and this verse will likely be absolutely applicable to them, but you...you seem to know something contrary to what this verse and other verses and contexts reject about your stated position. Why is that?

Who have you ever known in your life that you could point your finger at and say to them that, although they thought they were once saved, they were never saved to begin with on the basis of what you personally observed in their lives up to that point?

Who sits on that Judgement Seat of Christ Jesus? Given that we ALL still sin, each and every day, I can say that I'm glad that it's He who is on that Throne, and not some man looking at the externals.

Does that make sense? Does that strike a chord?

Thoughts?

MM
 
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Paul writes the Corinthians to judge each other by their behavior. This is perhaps because no one can see inside someone to see if they have saving faith. Paul exhorts the Galatians to choose to walk by the Spirit so that they can stop walking by the flesh. It seems to be up to a saved Christian to exercise that choice.

Yes. Good point. Judge one another...but judging what? Salvation? I'm sure we can both agree, based on what you stated, that none of can judge the salvation of another, but we can judge what we see coming out from them, thus the reason for exhorting them, correcting them and even rebuking them if they are without repentance from those things.

Thank you for your words.

MM
 
The Father has to entrust you first. Just mere belief doesn't automatically put you in that camp and that's the issue I have with OSAS. It's the doctrine that implies standard belief that Jesus is God is the only criteria and there for, you are saved eternally. It also implies that one can't walk away from Christ. Like Christ would against your will, refuse you to leave. Christ will not drop you, but you can drop yourself and the Father and Christ will honor it. Hence why you have the parable of the vine and other teachings about remaining in Christ.

So, where do you stand? Are you on the side of works-based salvation?

MM
 
So, where do you stand? Are you on the side of works-based salvation?

MM
It is not 'works-based salvation'. John is his gospel and letters uses the word 'believes' in a continuous sense. One does not only have to believe initially to be saved but continue to believe to stay saved. This is not works but faith or the lack of it.
 
Yes, I was once a OSAS Baptist until I read GW and learned these:

Matt. 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Rom. 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1Cor. 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
Gal. 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
Col. 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2Thes. 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2Tim. 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
Heb. 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
Heb. 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” This passage indicates that apostasy may be viewed as total depravity or blasphemy against the HS (MT 12:31).
Heb. 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
Jam. 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2Pet. 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2Pet. 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
Jude 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
Rev. 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
What's gw?
 
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at the end of what was fading away.

NOr are we like Adam who hid himself in shame because of his sin.

Yet there are those that are 'masters' at hiding their sin, even from themselves, but are experts at 'spotting' the sin of others. :rolleyes:

Would Adam have hidden himself if he'd judged rightly the goodness and the grace of God? It occurred to me as I was thinking on this that he might've reacted differently if he would have judged correctly. He'd have become aghast after he'd eaten thrown down the apple and ran to God praying Him something like, "Oh God, help me! I've eaten of the fruit that you forbade me not to eat....!
 
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From here out, I'm going to call anything similar to what Adam did as "Fig leaf faith."
 
I believe there's a difference between being Saved by the knowledge of knowing Yeshua and the actual transformation that takes place during Regeneration. I don't believe everyone that claims to be Saved has necessarily been filled with the Holy Spirit. But some Doctrines proclaim that Regeneration happens to anyone Saved and if you read the examples throughout the Book of Acts you clearly see a 2 step process of accepting Yeshua and then the Holy Spirit coming upon you and filling you.

I therefore believe the Regenerated won't be living like the devil after their Conversion.
 
I believe there's a difference between being Saved by the knowledge of knowing Yeshua and the actual transformation that takes place during Regeneration. I don't believe everyone that claims to be Saved has necessarily been filled with the Holy Spirit. But some Doctrines proclaim that Regeneration happens to anyone Saved and if you read the examples throughout the Book of Acts you clearly see a 2 step process of accepting Yeshua and then the Holy Spirit coming upon you and filling you.

I therefore believe the Regenerated won't be living like the devil after their Conversion.
Regeneration is the new life one receives at conversion. As one repents of their sins and puts their trust in Jesus, they receive new life in Christ-regeneration. John 3.
There is a subsequent experience of the baptism with the Holy Spirit, after conversion/regeneration as seen in the Acts of the Apostles. This is not regeneration but sanctification. Acts 15:8,9.
 
Regeneration is the new life one receives at conversion. As one repents of their sins and puts their trust in Jesus, they receive new life in Christ-regeneration. John 3.
There is a subsequent experience of the baptism with the Holy Spirit, after conversion/regeneration as seen in the Acts of the Apostles. This is not regeneration but sanctification. Acts 15:8,9.
Yep, 2 steps (y)
 
Regeneration is the new life one receives at conversion. As one repents of their sins and puts their trust in Jesus, they receive new life in Christ-regeneration. John 3.
There is a subsequent experience of the baptism with the Holy Spirit, after conversion/regeneration as seen in the Acts of the Apostles. This is not regeneration but sanctification. Acts 15:8,9.

Conversion = repentance (Matt. 4:17) = seeking salvation (Matt. 7:7) >
finding Jesus as Lord (Acts 16:31) = inviting Jesus into heart (Rev. 3:20) = baptism with HS (Rom. 5:5) = rebirth (John 3:6) >
sanctification = spiritual maturation (Eph. 4:11-14) > death/resurrection (1Cor. 15:19)