Doesn't Living Like the Devil After Being Saved Disprove Once Saved Always Saved?

[Delvianna]

What does that even mean? Are you saying Paul was not inspired to write that in 1 Cor 15? When the Lord inspired him to write down, "by which also ye are saved," in verse 2, what else could that have meant? Is the Lord somehow lacking in the ability to inspire precisely what the Lord meant? Are the biblical words subjective? Please clarify.



So, again, what's your point in that statement? How much more "exhastive," (whatever that means) can it be than to say that by those three elements within which one must place his faith, that one is then saved...BY his statement?



Again, this has nothing to do with salvation. I am Israeli, and Israel has been cut off and yet I am still saved by believing what Paul stated as the foundational element for salvation, which is faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus. There's nothing more to salvation, and you're bringing up the issue of branches and their status in relation to the vine as a collective people?

Why are you convoluting the topic by trying to intermix the relationship with the vine as a collective when salvation is an individual matter? Please enlighten me on that.



Context, context and context! Please look at the context of that passage, which states NOTHING about salvation! The immdiate predecessor statement is about reigning with Christ:

2 Timothy 2:12-13
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

It's interesting that you left out reigning as a part of that statement, joined by the colon (which conjoins two sentences, the second amplifying the first...for those out there who are grammatically challenged), and also the immediately following passage where it clearly states that going into disbelief, the Lord remains faithful because He cannot deny Himself. So, if one is going to inject salvation into the meaning, then one must consider that salvation isn't based upon personal faithfulness, but rather upon the faithfulness of Christ Jesus.



Your deplorable system of hermeneutics would indeed fail within my and other of my colleague's theology classes. This practice so many have by way of injecting salvation into whatever contexts one so desires, thus making salvation a matter of works and boasting, I find this practice horrid and Luciferian in origin.

Case in point from above: Work OUT, not FOR, your salvation. What results from one working outwardly one's salvation? Verse 13 og Philippians 2 gives the answer:

13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

That "For" in also conjunctive, not a separator.

Additionally, where Paul did indeed speak of salvation in other contexts of his inspired writings, it's never done as a caveated addition to nor negation away from what he stated emphatically in his most important foundation laid in 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4. Suggesting, either explicitly or alluding to such indirectly, that Paul was only summarizing or was incomplete in 1 Cor. 15 what is stated therein, that casts a pall of indignity and untrustworthiness upon the scriptures that I find repugnant, to say the least.

You really should learn in silence when not applying scripture in honest presentation and usage.

MM

Couple points.
1) You still don't understand my points. I really don't know how else to explain them, so I'm just going to not bother. Mostly because of your attitude.
2) If you don't understand certain words, you can always look them up.
3) Patronizing me when you don't understand me, doesn't make you correct, it just makes you arrogant.
4) Despite the fact you're talking passed me, your interpretations are just that, interpretations. You might want to learn some humility when you talk to people.

Man am I getting sick and tired of having discussions with OSAS crowd. Ya'll are the most arrogant, smug people. Cannot have a debate/discussion without patronizing attitudes or arrogance.

 

[Kroogz]

Do you believe that all people who believe you can lose salvation automatically are self-righteous?

Yes, no question about it.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Couple points.
1) You still don't understand my points. I really don't know how else to explain them, so I'm just going to not bother. Mostly because of your attitude.
2) If you don't understand certain words, you can always look them up.
3) Patronizing me when you don't understand me, doesn't make you correct, it just makes you arrogant.
4) Despite the fact you're talking passed me, your interpretations are just that, interpretations. You might want to learn some humility when you talk to people.

Man am I getting sick and tired of having discussions with OSAS crowd. Ya'll are the most arrogant, smug people. Cannot have a debate/discussion without patronizing attitudes or arrogance.

I just let God handle them. You don't have the responsibility to convince them - it's God's. You just have to tell them what God places in your heart and leave it that. If they resist God's convincing work in them, there are consequences for them as you know. So don't let them steal your peace and joy away. Not worth it.

 

[Delvianna]

I just let God handle them. You don't have the responsibility to convince them - it's God's. You just have to tell them what God places in your heart and leave it that. If they resist God's convincing work in them, there are consequences for them as you know. So don't let them steal your peace and joy away. Not worth it.

You are absolutely right. Thanks for your reply to me <3

 

[Musicmaster]

What does it mean to "live like the devil"? There are many sins I can think of that are very obvious and easy to spot, are these the actions you speak of? Are they any less a sin than the more hidden ones? Remember that God decrees EVERY SIN an abomination. Now I agree that the more obvious sins should be among the first to actively avoid, but who besides God can truly know an individual's heart and what motivates their specific actions. Perhaps they have ordered the issues in their life that they wish to work on to improve, and the actions we are noticing are just further down their list than we think they should be.

I've been trying for a very long time now to get the works-based, loss of salvation people to define that line of loss that they believe in...people who themselves sin daily, and yet they seem to have some sort of undefined gauge by which they glean others can and have lost their salvation. Strange, isn't it?

Given that, in the life of a believer, the sin that we do is not we who are sinning, but sin in us, as Paul stated. Yes, there are those who will claim that all the rest of us aren't understanding that verse and context for what it's saying, which is nothing but a wedge used to try and pry their own false beliefs into the lives of others while planting the seeds of distrust for the scriptures in meaning what they say.

Living like the devil is just one of many catch phrases the works-based salvationists claim against others. So, you'd have to ask them what they mean by that because I'm just not smart enough to see things as they do...they who think they've kicked Christ Jesus off His Judgement Throne.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Couple points.
1) You still don't understand my points. I really don't know how else to explain them, so I'm just going to not bother. Mostly because of your attitude.
2) If you don't understand certain words, you can always look them up.
3) Patronizing me when you don't understand me, doesn't make you correct, it just makes you arrogant.
4) Despite the fact you're talking passed me, your interpretations are just that, interpretations. You might want to learn some humility when you talk to people.

Man am I getting sick and tired of having discussions with OSAS crowd. Ya'll are the most arrogant, smug people. Cannot have a debate/discussion without patronizing attitudes or arrogance.

Those are the usual fare of denials and escapes. That's ok. It's the usual fodder around here. If you can earn your way to Heaven, losing it here and there through life, thus cheapening the Blood of Christ with worthless serf effort, then please, go for it. See where it gets you...

I'm here if you ever want to have a reasonable conversation without the shuck and jive nonsense accusations.

MM

 

[Delvianna]

Those are the usual fare of denials and escapes. That's ok. It's the usual fodder around here. If you can earn your way to Heaven, losing it here and there through life, thus cheapening the Blood of Christ with worthless serf effort, then please, go for it. See where it gets you...

I'm here if you ever want to have a reasonable conversation without the shuck and jive nonsense accusations.

MM

You don't make conversations reasonable. I'll pass.

 

[Mem]

Idk, maybe it is possible to present a box of filthy rags to the bank, and they accept them in credit for bars of gold!

 

[Musicmaster]

The question still stands...how does even "living like the devil" nullify one's salvation if one is sealed by Holy Spirit and born again? Where does scripture speak of the undoing of that seal by Holy Spirit, explicitly, and also becoming unborn again?

Anyone?

These questions remain still in effect at the exclusion of verse references and quotes where one either has to inject salvation into the text to make it fit or they use verses ripped from their contexts that define the key words in ways not at all representative of the topic at hand or the questions asked.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

You don't make conversations reasonable. I'll pass.

That you refused to offer anything to solidify your use of those verses in what you think they are saying, that is the gap that you never attempted to close up so that we all understand your meaning behind their use. So, you claimed cherry picking on my part and without explaining those verses and their meaning to you in the discussion, so what else could one surmise other than you thinking those verses had to do with the questions asked. I didn't see the connection, being left with nothing but assumption as to your intent.

So, please, don't try to formulate the fault as it allegedly being on my shoulders when you didn't articulate your reasoning in the use of those verses you cherry picked from contexts that have not to do with the discussed questions I was asking. If there was or is a connection, then enlighten me...or tuck tail and run. I've admitted many times my faults in misapplications in the past, and still remain teachable so long as others exercise the grace and love they claim to have in correcting another in love. I wasn't being cruel, although the sterile tone may have seemed as such to you...apart from my suggesting silence until there's understanding of us being on the same plane of absolutes upon which the scriptures rest regardless of the multitudes of warps and twists Westernize Christianity applies as a matter of routine to the Bible.

MM

 

[Delvianna]

That you refused to offer anything to solidify your use of those verses in what you think they are saying, that is the gap that you never attempted to close up so that we all understand your meaning behind their use. So, you claimed cherry picking on my part and without explaining those verses and their meaning to you in the discussion, so what else could one surmise other than you thinking those verses had to do with the questions asked. I didn't see the connection, being left with nothing but assumption as to your intent.

So, please, don't try to formulate the fault as it allegedly being on my shoulders when you didn't articulate your reasoning in the use of those verses you cherry picked from contexts that have not to do with the discussed questions I was asking. If there was or is a connection, then enlighten me...or tuck tail and run. I've admitted many times my faults in misapplications in the past, and still remain teachable so long as others exercise the grace and love they claim to have in correcting another in love. I wasn't being cruel, although the sterile tone may have seemed as such to you...apart from my suggesting silence until there's understanding of us being on the same plane of absolutes upon which the scriptures rest regardless of the multitudes of warps and twists Westernize Christianity applies as a matter of routine to the Bible.

MM

No, you don't understand my points, despite me reiterating them. The fault IS on your shoulders and this conversation COULD have continued as I would have tried again to make my points so that you understand what I was saying, but because you resorted to the superior attitude you have, again I will pass. Make up whatever you want. Whatever helps you sleep at night. I'm out.

 

[rewriter]

No, you don't understand my points, despite me reiterating them. The fault IS on your shoulders and this conversation COULD have continued as I would have tried again to make my points so that you understand what I was saying, but because you resorted to the superior attitude you have, again I will pass. Make up whatever you want. Whatever helps you sleep at night. I'm out.

To my mind, a lot of the problems in theology and biblical interpretation lie in an attitude that certain meanings are just so obvious that there is no need to check to see if they actually fit with an overall understanding of the message of scripture. Good heavens, even attempting such an effort might require lots of really deep research and lead to some uncomfortable conclusions.

Might I suggest that both you and Musicmaster take a deep breath and make a truly serious attempt to put aside your assumptions and truly try to understand what the other person is trying to say.

 

[Delvianna]

To my mind, a lot of the problems in theology and biblical interpretation lie in an attitude that certain meanings are just so obvious that there is no need to check to see if they actually fit with an overall understanding of the message of scripture. Good heavens, even attempting such an effort might require lots of really deep research and lead to some uncomfortable conclusions.

Might I suggest that both you and Musicmaster take a deep breath and make a truly serious attempt to put aside your assumptions and truly try to understand what the other person is trying to say.

I tried to re-clarify since his points had nothing to do with what I was saying and then he decided to make assertions instead while coming at me like he is superior and one day I will just be as wise and understanding as him and then come back to him and say so while I should in the mean time, study in silence which I took as a reference to Pauls words that people take out of context about women being silent in church. I've already blocked him. I cannot and will not have a continued conversation with someone who treats others this way regardless of the disagreements.

 

[Musicmaster]

No, you don't understand my points, despite me reiterating them. The fault IS on your shoulders and this conversation COULD have continued as I would have tried again to make my points so that you understand what I was saying, but because you resorted to the superior attitude you have, again I will pass. Make up whatever you want. Whatever helps you sleep at night. I'm out.

It's too bad that words on a screen, which cannot convey facial expressions nor vocal inflections in order to convey a more realistic conveyance of the attitude and manner of intended delivery. Because of my scholastic background, I habitually speak matter-of-factly and to the point rather than to beat around the bush with social niceties. Perhaps that's a downfall in forms among people who don't know one another in order to have an "inside track" on the intents and mannerisms of others they don't know personally, especially those who don't have a bone to pick with anyone.

So, when I stated about it being better to remain silent in things where one finds out they are not treading in knowledgeable things, that's a two-way street, which applies to myself as well.

I do apologize for what may have seemed rude and condescending. In preparation for the upcoming semester of students, my annoyances at modern technologies that refuse to work as needed tends to spill over. In other words, I'm human with frailties that beset us all. When I sin, it's not me that sins, but sin in me.

MM

 

[Dave123]

One of the evidences of a genuine faith is perseverance in that faith. In other words, if you don't persevere, you never had a genuine faith. Like this...

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Likewise, a person living like the devil should be concerned that their faith is not genuine. God knows, but we do not always know. The evidences are for us, so that we can know (1 John 5:13).

 

[rewriter]

It's too bad that words on a screen, which cannot convey facial expressions nor vocal inflections in order to convey a more realistic conveyance of the attitude and manner of intended delivery. Because of my scholastic background, I habitually speak matter-of-factly and to the point rather than to beat around the bush with social niceties. Perhaps that's a downfall in forms among people who don't know one another in order to have an "inside track" on the intents and mannerisms of others they don't know personally, especially those who don't have a bone to pick with anyone.

So, when I stated about it being better to remain silent in things where one finds out they are not treading in knowledgeable things, that's a two-way street, which applies to myself as well.

I do apologize for what may have seemed rude and condescending. In preparation for the upcoming semester of students, my annoyances at modern technologies that refuse to work as needed tends to spill over. In other words, I'm human with frailties that beset us all. When I sin, it's not me that sins, but sin in me.

MM

I sympathize with your academic style I have to worry about a similar approach. My biggest issue I need to keep in check is that while from my research I see certain points as indicating that we are missing something when we read the scriptures, not everyone sees the same, often dismissing what I see as serious issues. By looking at these issues, I can find an understanding that is far more consistent across the entire Bible than traditional ones, but also a lot of points that are disquieting to say the least. This approach also requires checking with sources outside of scripture to confirm the message of scripture, that is adjusting my understanding of scripture to fit with hard evidence from other realms rather than attempting to force the hard evidence to comply with my understanding of scripture, as some do.

One big example is that I can argue that scripture actually calls for the establishment of Rome as the new Jerusalem for example, and that implies the establishment of the RCC. This is compatible with a lot of hard evidence that without this connection flounders for an explanation, but when combined resolves issues within and outside scripture. But this also trashes tradition, both Protestant and RCC.

I can end up agreeing that scripture contains and reveals the truth, but not that it is literally all true. But it also provides solid reasons for arguing that 2 Timothy 3:16 does not make such a claim to begin with, but that rather such a claim is to avoid admitting other issues.

 

[mailmandan]

NO! if someone is living like the devil after SUPPOSEDLY being saved, he or she was NEVER SAVED in the 1st place!!!

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" or pseudo-Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not always easy telling them apart, especially at first, and only the Lord infallibly knows the hearts of all men. Judas Iscariot looked like the real deal to the remaining 11 disciples, yet only Jesus infallibly knew his heart and said, "he is a devil!" (John 6:70-71)

When Jesus said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me" in John 13:21, did the remaining disciples say, "that's an easy one, Lord. It's Judas Iscariot who will betray you?" No, they did not say that. Instead, in verse 22, we read - The disciples looked at one another, perplexed/uncertain about whom he meant.

 

[mailmandan]

One of the evidences of a genuine faith is perseverance in that faith. In other words, if you don't persevere, you never had a genuine faith. Like this...

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Likewise, a person living like the devil should be concerned that their faith is not genuine. God knows, but we do not always know. The evidences are for us, so that we can know (1 John 5:13).

Amen! I see perseverance in faith as a conditional confirmation that one has genuine faith, and a lack of perseverance confirms otherwise.

 

[Musicmaster]

One of the evidences of a genuine faith is perseverance in that faith. In other words, if you don't persevere, you never had a genuine faith. Like this...

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Likewise, a person living like the devil should be concerned that their faith is not genuine. God knows, but we do not always know. The evidences are for us, so that we can know (1 John 5:13).

Please notice that salvation isn't the contextual focus. What was at issue was who was of whom. Remember those who said, "I am of Apollos," "I am of Cephas..." The authority one carried in those times was an important feature as to if those individual going out were truly representative of the grouping with which they gave verbal assent. Therein is why even Paul had letters from the elders of the Gentile churches to present to the Jerusalem council for recognition of representation, as an example of one facet of the topic.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I sympathize with your academic style I have to worry about a similar approach. My biggest issue I need to keep in check is that while from my research I see certain points as indicating that we are missing something when we read the scriptures, not everyone sees the same, often dismissing what I see as serious issues. By looking at these issues, I can find an understanding that is far more consistent across the entire Bible than traditional ones, but also a lot of points that are disquieting to say the least. This approach also requires checking with sources outside of scripture to confirm the message of scripture, that is adjusting my understanding of scripture to fit with hard evidence from other realms rather than attempting to force the hard evidence to comply with my understanding of scripture, as some do.

One big example is that I can argue that scripture actually calls for the establishment of Rome as the new Jerusalem for example, and that implies the establishment of the RCC. This is compatible with a lot of hard evidence that without this connection flounders for an explanation, but when combined resolves issues within and outside scripture. But this also trashes tradition, both Protestant and RCC.

I can end up agreeing that scripture contains and reveals the truth, but not that it is literally all true. But it also provides solid reasons for arguing that 2 Timothy 3:16 does not make such a claim to begin with, but that rather such a claim is to avoid admitting other issues.

Do you still find yourself being careful with external sources, realizing how daunting it can be, and dubious, to consider external sourcing to be as reliable? Granted, outside sourcing can give insights not considered before about the scriptures in the Bible, but I'm unlike so many who utilize external sourcing, placing it on the same level as scripture such as those who follow the Watchtower Society.

MM