The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8

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Sometimes I think the mission of churches is to make a mess.

With a few key first principles, (one being people can and do believe without be zapped first, lol) and just understanding the message as it was understood by the original audience helps take much of the mess away.
Not to jump the gun but your earlier question about the papacy ties perfectly with this issue. God has not sparred His prophetic ink within the Book of Daniel, 2 Thesalonians, or in Revelation about the identity of the one who would preach a very different gospel, persecute His saints, corrupt His church, change His laws and commands, etc., That is the heart of the answer to your concern about the "mess" we all find ourselves in. Again, God was not silent about this in His scriptures.
 
Not to jump the gun but your earlier question about the papacy ties perfectly with this issue. God has not sparred His prophetic ink within the Book of Daniel, 2 Thesalonians, or in Revelation about the identity of the one who would preach a very different gospel, persecute His saints, corrupt His church, change His laws and commands, etc., That is the heart of the answer to your concern about the "mess" we all find ourselves in. Again, God was not silent about this in His scriptures.

The saints being persecuted in scripture are those in the first century.
 
FYI....I part company here .. that "time" was fulfilled in the first century.
Anyway I will bow out here.. while I try to not be dogmatic and I still have much to learn in terms of how everything lines up, this is a settled thing for me.
The time stamps are indisputable.
I understand ... I agree with you that the scriptures, at least to me, remind me of those Calculus tests at school... I really miss the multiple choice ones....

But remember, you can always ask and either accept / disagree / or do what I have always done - select box D - all the above.
 
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FYI....I part company here .. that "time" was fulfilled in the first century.
Anyway I will bow out here.. while I try to not be dogmatic and I still have much to learn in terms of how everything lines up, this is a settled thing for me.
The time stamps are indisputable.
Also, I apologize.... that comment is indeed meant for the discussion of Revelation not Daniel. My bad!!!!!!!!
 
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Sorry, I may have misread your previous posts.

You believe that Daniel 2:34-35 has already happened, correct? That would mean that the clay that got destroyed would be the 70 AD event? Thus, the 'metal man' eventually was completely destroyed around the timeline you referenced:



Am I understanding your posts correctly? Clay is definitely used to represent the Israelites.
I think it is me who much apologize. It is so, so difficult to discuss Daniel, or any book of the Bible through this medium. But let me quickly make a few comments:

1) No, verse 2:34 represents the Stone striking the feet - this is the first coming of the Messiah,

2) Verse 2:35 represents the return of the Messiah when He judges everything and everyone and establishes HIS KINGDOM. Jesus is the only One described as the "Stone." i do not believe we will find God (The Father) ever identified as the "Stone."

3) Verse 2:35 inludes the harvest imagery - not 2:34.

4) We only see Daniel list out all 4 of the metal types PLUS the clay in 2:35. This is because this represents the destruction of the world - the return of Jesus. And it is 2:34 where Jesus strikes the feet to do two things:

a) He strikes the iron feet to separate, symbolically, His people from Rome,

b) He then separates His people into two types of clay - those that wil come to accept Him as their Messiah - Pottery clay, and those that will harden their hearts and reject Him - Ceremic or Miry clay. So, the first strike of the Stone is to "divide" not to destroy. But on His return, we do find the clay included with the 4 metals because they represent those "clay" (people of all nations). that have still rejected Jesus. Jesus, the Stone was / is not a destroyer but One who was called to separate ...
 
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Also, I apologize.... that comment is indeed meant for the discussion of Revelation not Daniel. My bad!!!!!!!!

I agree about labels, but if you were to describe your position on prophecy what would say?
No pressure, just curious.
 
The saints being persecuted in scripture are those in the first century.
If you do not mind, that question is very complicated and is / will be addressed in chapter 7. Let me give you something to think about.... everyone, and I do mean everyone, believes these "saints of the Most High" speak to those who may have been martyred for their faith - some believe it represents those in the first century, some believe it represents those at the time of the tribulation in the end times.

But here is an interesting fact that can be discussed by all should we want to discuss chapter 7 - there are only 4 times in all of scripture where God will use the specific term "saints of the Most High." And they are all found in Daniel chapter 7 for a very specific reason. But it is too early to discuss that now.
 
If you do not mind, that question is very complicated and is / will be addressed in chapter 7. Let me give you something to think about.... everyone, and I do mean everyone, believes these "saints of the Most High" speak to those who may have been martyred for their faith - some believe it represents those in the first century, some believe it represents those at the time of the tribulation in the end times.

But here is an interesting fact that can be discussed by all should we want to discuss chapter 7 - there are only 4 times in all of scripture where God will use the specific term "saints of the Most High." And they are all found in Daniel chapter 7 for a very specific reason. But it is too early to discuss that now.

Interesting, I will check back when you get there.
 
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I agree about labels, but if you were to describe your position on prophecy what would say?
No pressure, just curious.
I am sorry, but I really cannot answer that... I have studied Daniel and Revelation - and they fit together like a glove. I would be happy to try and answer any question we are now discussing in Daniel.... and I truly believe that Daniel is THE most difficult book in the Bible to interpret and unpack...
 
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For what it is worth, here is a copy of the introduction to chapter 2 within the Daniel commentary:


Introduction to Chapter 2
God’s blueprints


Chapter 1 serves as an introduction to the first few years in Babylon and concludes with a declaration affirming that Daniel and the Jews will remain in captivity for another seventy years, up to the first year of King Cyrus. Chapter 1 is a succinct, matter-of-fact historical beginning to the Book of Daniel. It does not include mysterious dreams or visions, nor does it have any complex or confusing symbols or imagery. The opposite happens to be the case in Chapter 2, which turns out to be one of the Bible's most intriguing and thought-provoking prophetic chapters. Nebuchadnezzar's dream, in which he saw a frightening image of a large metal-man, takes up all of this chapter.

Nebuchadnezzar was unable to remember what he had dreamed. Only through the grace and power of Daniel’s God were the dream and its significance revealed to him. Daniel received this revelation from God through a night vision. The four kingdoms where all of the prophesied events would take place over three time periods were revealed in the dream and its interpretation sequence. Before going into the details of the forty-nine verses contained in this chapter, it is necessary to make a few comments about the methodology and approach that result in these interpretations for Chapter 2 as well as the framework for the other chapters in Daniel.

First, Chapter 2 identifies four kingdoms from the time of Babylon to the end of time. Within this chapter, Daniel provides the external and internal boundaries and borders for these four kingdoms. Each kingdom will include its own individual actors and series of events that stay within their respective borders with no "bleeding" of the actors or events between them. Essentially, Chapter 2 is a detailed drawing of His plan of restoration and salvation for the Jews and mankind that includes its own set of restrictions and guidelines.

It is no different than a complex physical building's layout; we must respect its structural blueprints and actual proportions and make sure we do not stray outside the lines, whether they are outside the metal-man image or between each of the kingdoms. Throughout the remaining ten chapters, this "structure" will limit our interpretations within its confines.

Similar to a plan to construct a complex building, once the blueprints have been approved, there is no going back and changing them. And it's crucial to keep in mind that the structure is not the story.

Second, there is no need to interpret these verses using extrabiblical sources, but there will be a few external references presented. Although it would be easy to compare these four kingdoms to the records we have of the past, that approach would not end there. Instead, the method of relating these verses to our historical figures and events would quickly backfire, with the people and the events in our historical accounts coming to define the significance and interpretations of God's prophetic verses. They might soon take the lead in deciding the interpretations that seem to fit. All interpretations within these 12 chapters have been sourced from the Book of Daniel or the Tanakh. Consequently, there is no possibility of man’s records getting into and corrupting God’s Word

This does not suggest these particular interpretations are exactly what God had in mind, but He has provided us with all the information within these chapters and verses and within the earlier books in His Scriptures to obtain and discover His prophetic messages. God’s prophetic verses are far more accurate and complete in every way than our history books.

Daniel chapter 2 is one of the most complex and puzzling chapters in the book, and its importance cannot be overstated. This chapter functions as a prophetic blueprint—a foundational guide for interpreting the remaining ten chapters of Daniel. If we misunderstand this chapter, we risk taking a wrong turn at the very beginning, which will inevitably lead to misinterpretation not only of Daniel’s later visions but also of the Book of Revelation itself. Getting this chapter right is not optional—it is essential.

To approach it effectively, it is necessary to divide Chapter 2 into two distinct sections. The first is the Dream Sequence, recorded in verses 31–35.5 This section outlines the rise and fall of four successive world empires: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and the Roman Empire. Though the Roman Empire will later divide—most notably when Papal Rome succeeds Pagan Rome—it remains, from God’s perspective, a single fourth kingdom. Each of these kingdoms occupies a clear and separate segment of history, with its own external territory and internal structure.

These internal borders are key to understanding the placement of the prophetic details that follow. They define clear divisions in both time and space, allowing us to properly position each verse found in the second half of the chapter.

The second section, which we can call the Interpretation Sequence (verses 36–45), does not follow the Dream Sequence chronologically. Rather, it overlays it—expanding and explaining the symbols, materials, and events introduced in the dream. These verses are not a continuation in time after verse 35; instead, they form a deeper layer of revelation, meant to be understood within the framework of the original dream.

Understanding each kingdom’s unique features—its role, character, and even its symbolic material composition—enhances our ability to interpret God’s words within the larger plan of salvation. Each empire corresponds to a specific part of the human body, and each is represented by a different metal with its own symbolic color and value. These details are not ornamental—they are prophetic. They help unlock the identity and meaning of each kingdom in its time.

There is, however, only one verse within the Dream Sequence that allows for the proper separation and division of the Interpretation Sequence verses that follow. This single detail must be identified and interpreted through a completely different lens than those commonly accepted today. Without it, we cannot accurately place the Interpretation Sequence verses within the correct prophetic timeline. This is where modern interpretations often go astray—projecting many of these verses into the distant future, which has led to distorted readings and a loss of their original prophetic intent.

The Interpretation Sequence in verses 36–45 contains many challenging and seemingly impenetrable verses, yet they all find their proper context within the structure provided by the Dream Sequence. They reveal the identities of key figures, describe unfolding events, and unveil divine prophecies—all within the bounds of the four empires first presented in the dream. Therefore, our task is not only to interpret the meaning of each verse, but to place each actor, event, and statement within the correct kingdom, internal border, and moment in time.

Verses 36–39 address the first three kingdoms and are relatively straightforward to place. However, verses 40–45 focus entirely on the fourth kingdom—Rome—and here the challenge intensifies.

This section must account for the dual nature of Rome: first as a pagan empire, and later as a religious power centered in Papal authority. Discerning how these verses apply to both phases is essential for rightly understanding the chapter—and everything that follows.

As a result of applying this structural and contextual approach to Daniel 2, the interpretations will differ significantly from the dominant interpretations found today. And because this chapter forms the prophetic foundation for the entire book, any departure from today’s views here will naturally lead to further departures in later chapters. But this is not a cause for concern—it is a return to the original structure God provided, ensuring that His message is understood within the proper prophetic timeline and divine order.
 
After reading the thread so far - "my/some [various] thoughts":

Remember that - in a prophetic dream/vision - the things that are seen in the dream/vision can be symbolic and represent different things; however, I would like to point out that - the "little horn" is a 'horn' just like the other horns; therefore, it stands to reason that it is the same type of thing as the other horns - whether it be an individual, a country, a kingdom, a 'system', etc. - and, is the only thing we can actually reasonably "assume" without looking at other important and significant information found in scripture that helps us determine more specifically just exactly who/what it truly represents. So then, this is the "starting point" to making a proper determination. Thinking of the "little horn" as being a different type of thing than the other horns is a definite red flag in my opinion. If you say that the "little horn" represents an individual while the other horns represent kingdoms - major red flag. The only [seeming] exception to this - which is really not an exception - is to say that something is symbolic of both a king and his kingdom (considered together as one) - as long as every other similar thing being compared is defined/determined in those terms also.

I have found the key is in chapter 2 and 7. God gives us the formal structure of where He is going to place His prophecies - that being the 4 and only 4 kingdoms identified in chapter 2. Then, in chapter 7, He reveals some changes to the 4th kingdom that we must ask ourselves what they mean and why they have taken place. The two most important elements are the "coming out" of the 4th kingdom the 10 horns and then, the little horn (and this is indeed purposeful because the little horn does not become visible at the same time as the 10 horns. But if you notice that BOTH the 10 horns and the little horn come out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome BEFORE DANIEL 7:11. That verse is monumental because 7:11 tells us a specific date in history - it is 476 AD when Pagan Rome is slain. Therefore, the little horn and the 10 horns are shown in verses 7:1- 8 as already have come into existence WITHIN PAGAN ROME'S DEMISE.
I believe that the following verses are an 'aside' - in this case, a temporary far-forward jump in time to the 'final end' - the Second Coming of Christ - even until the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium - [more/most specifically] because of the phrases highlighted:

Daniel 7:

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel pauses to make reference to something he actually saw later in his vision before returning in verse 12 to what he was describing in verse 8.

Keep in mind that the statue has two legs, two feet, ten toes - two legs each having 1 foot with 5 toes.

And - it is all of the feet - not just the toes - that are of an iron/clay mix.

Sorry but I am going to use that word - looking at the statue vision all the kingdoms transition into each other. But if you believe the ten toes are future then there has to be a massive CENSORED from the legs of the statue to the feet :)
Not so - inasmuch as the feet are not a fifth kingdom - therefore, actually part of the fourth kingdom - the feet-and-toes are the same 'iron legs' kingdom "later in time" (down-the-statue is later-in-time) - and, in fact, represent the end of its time - the end of its existence before being destroyed.

The toes - along with the feet, legs, etc. - exist until the whole thing is destroyed - so, yes - the toes, along with the rest of it - are future (whether or not you consider the time frame of the feet-and-toes part of the statue to be in existence already) - until the whole statue is destroyed.

That is a hugely important point. This is why I believe that no book of Daniel interpretation can be taken seriously until the 'days' mentioned in Daniel (and even Revelation) are solved.

Until someone has properly exegeted the 1260, 1290, 1335 and 2300 days, they have no business teaching this topic as if they have.
This is an issue/topic for another thread; however, for what it may offer in the context of this thread - I believe that the places where the actual word 'days' is used (not simply used in the text; but rather, in a designated prophetic span of time) are actual [24-hour] days and not "translated" into years.

FYI....I part company here .. that "time" was fulfilled in the first century.
Anyway I will bow out here.. while I try to not be dogmatic and I still have much to learn in terms of how everything lines up, this is a settled thing for me.
The time stamps are indisputable.
Would you be so kind as to list the particular-and-specific time stamps you are referring to...?

In general, I believe that the statue legs-with-feet-and-toes must be considered as the same beast/kingdom throughout history from the start-to-finish of its existence "as you go" from where the legs turn into iron down to the feet/toes.

The key question is - how does the iron-and-clay mixture fit into the same singular [fourth] beast/kingdom - [only] in the latter part of its existence before it is destroyed?

I could add more comments to this post; however, this is probably enough for now - just some things to keep in mind...
 
Sorry but I am going to use that word - looking at the statue vision all the kingdoms transition into each other. But if you believe the ten toes are future then there has to be a massive CENSORED from the legs of the statue to the feet :)
By the way - just to increase the fun next time - there is a smilie for that:

:censored:

(hover your cursor over it)
 
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Not so - inasmuch as the feet are not a fifth kingdom - therefore, actually part of the fourth kingdom - the feet-and-toes are the same 'iron legs' kingdom "later in time" (down-the-statue is later-in-time) - and, in fact, represent the end of its time - the end of its existence before being destroyed.

The toes - along with the feet, legs, etc. - exist until the whole thing is destroyed - so, yes - the toes, along with the rest of it - are future (whether or not you consider the time frame of the feet-and-toes part of the statue to be in existence already) - until the whole statue is destroyed.
That is a valid point - but at least I got to use the :censored: word - I found it lol
 
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After reading the thread so far - "my/some [various] thoughts":

Remember that - in a prophetic dream/vision - the things that are seen in the dream/vision can be symbolic and represent different things; however, I would like to point out that - the "little horn" is a 'horn' just like the other horns; therefore, it stands to reason that it is the same type of thing as the other horns - whether it be an individual, a country, a kingdom, a 'system', etc. - and, is the only thing we can actually reasonably "assume" without looking at other important and significant information found in scripture that helps us determine more specifically just exactly who/what it truly represents. So then, this is the "starting point" to making a proper determination. Thinking of the "little horn" as being a different type of thing than the other horns is a definite red flag in my opinion. If you say that the "little horn" represents an individual while the other horns represent kingdoms - major red flag. The only [seeming] exception to this - which is really not an exception - is to say that something is symbolic of both a king and his kingdom (considered together as one) - as long as every other similar thing being compared is defined/determined in those terms also.

Here is the first mention of the little horn in Daniel - (This is within the "Dream sequence or the Summary sequence of verses in chapter 7:

7:8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.


Here is another mention of the little horn in Daniel - (This is within the "Interpretation sequence or the Details sequence of verses in chapter 7:

7:24 The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones,


In both verses Daniel distinguishes the little horn from the other 10 - the little horn is a man, the 10 are powers.





 
I believe that the following verses are an 'aside' - in this case, a temporary far-forward jump in time to the 'final end' - the Second Coming of Christ - even until the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium - [more/most specifically] because of the phrases highlighted:

Daniel 7:

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and
the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


Daniel pauses to make reference to something he actually saw later in his vision before returning in verse 12 to what he was describing in verse 8.


This is one of the few verses / scenes in chapter 7 that have caused so much confusion and misinterpretation. Almost everyone interprets these verses and others in chapter 7 are "end time scenes." But they are not. Please consider the following narrative that speaks to the structure presented specifically in chapter 7.



Within the Book of Daniel, four chapters—2, 7, 8, and 11—follow a distinctive prophetic structure. This method of presentation is not unique to Daniel; similar patterns can also be found in books such as Ezekiel and Revelation. However, the clearest template for understanding these particular chapters is established in Daniel 2. Daniel 2 presents the formal pattern: first, a dream sequence that reveals the broad prophetic picture, followed by an interpretation sequence that returns to the same material and explains it in greater detail.

In each of these chapters, God first presents what may be called a dream or vision sequence. This opening section provides the big picture—a summary of the major powers, events, and developments that will unfold. Later in the chapter, the prophecy circles back and provides a detail or interpretation sequence, expanding upon the earlier overview, identifying its principal actors, and revealing the significance of the events already shown.

This means these chapters should not be read as though every later verse necessarily describes an event occurring later in time. The interpretation section may return to events already introduced in the earlier vision and explain them more fully. In other words, the chapter may progress structurally and interpretively without progressing chronologically from beginning to end.

Failing to recognize this pattern has contributed to many misinterpretations of some of Daniel’s most important prophecies. Commentators often approach these chapters as they would an ordinary history book, assuming that each verse must advance the timeline beyond the verse before it. When the later detail or interpretation verses do not appear to correspond with events they have already identified in history, they frequently conclude that those verses must refer to events still future.

However, those later verses may not be moving the prophecy forward in time. They may instead be returning to the earlier dream or vision sequence in order to explain its meaning, identify its principal actors, and reveal the spiritual significance of the events already presented.

As a result, many passages have been pushed into the end times when they may actually belong to the interpretation of events introduced earlier in the chapter. Recognizing the distinction between the broad vision sequence and the later interpretation sequence within these four chapters is therefore essential to reading Daniel correctly.

Daniel 7, however, contains an important structural departure not found in chapters 2, 8, or 11. Its opening dream sequence includes both earthly and heavenly scenes. This added dimension makes the chapter considerably more complex to understand.

The broad dream sequence of Daniel 7 is found in verses 1–14. Within that sequence, the earthly developments appear in verses 1–8 and again in verses 11–12. These verses describe the four beasts, the ten horns, the rise of the little horn, and the judgment and destruction associated with the fourth beast.

Inserted within these earthly scenes are two heavenly scenes. Verses 9–10 present the Ancient of Days taking His seat, the heavenly court being established, and the books being opened. Verses 13–14 present the Son of Man coming to the Ancient of Days and receiving dominion, glory, and an everlasting kingdom.

This arrangement is unique among Daniel’s major prophetic chapters. The earthly sequence is interrupted so that Daniel can be shown the corresponding heavenly activity that gives the events on earth their true meaning.

In this interpretation, the two heavenly scenes should not be treated as one continuous description of the Second Coming. The second heavenly scene, in particular, does not show the Son of Man descending from heaven to earth. It shows Him coming to the Ancient of Days and receiving His kingdom. This language naturally points to Christ’s return to the Father following His redemptive work and to His heavenly enthronement.

The first heavenly scene presents the Ancient of Days establishing the court in preparation for the work and judgment associated with the Messiah. Thus, the two heavenly scenes reveal events connected with the Messiah’s redemptive mission and His reception of authority, rather than describing only the final moments of earthly history.

The placement of these heavenly scenes within the earthly sequence has contributed to considerable misunderstanding. Because they appear beside the judgment of the little horn and the destruction of the fourth beast, many interpreters assume that all of verses 9–14 must occur at the same end-time moment.

However, Daniel is doing something more complex. He is being shown developments on earth together with the corresponding events in heaven that interpret them and reveal their spiritual significance. The heavenly scenes must therefore be examined according to their own direction, participants, and actions rather than being automatically compressed into a single event at the Second Coming.

Daniel 7 must consequently be read on two levels. It presents the earthly development of kingdoms and the little horn, while at the same time opening heaven to reveal the Ancient of Days, the heavenly court, and the Son of Man receiving His everlasting dominion. Recognizing this interaction between the earthly and heavenly scenes is essential to understanding the chapter’s structure and chronology. Essentially, God is giving us the earthly scene both before and after the coming Messiah. He also provides us with the heavenly scene both before and after the Messiah ministry and cross.


I wish I could tell you just how difficult and long it took to discover the unique presentation methods God would utilize in Daniel - there are more than a few!