Doesn't Living Like the Devil After Being Saved Disprove Once Saved Always Saved?

[Blade]

How does one reconcile “once saved, always saved” with cases where, for example, a pastor, religious leader of some sort or even a layman acquaintance of yours lives in open sin and even claims God sanctioned their ungodly relationship.

None of us, as humans, can definitively know another person’s salvation status. Salvation isn't evidenced by roles like pastor or seminary graduate but solely by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Even saved individuals, including the Apostle Paul, struggle with sin due to the sin nature; a malady that not one of us can claim to have overcome. See Romans 7:15, 17, and 24. See also 1 Corinthians 5:1–5, which shows to us that a brother can commit grievous sin and should be disciplined (put out of the assembly) rather than presumed lost, as is the devilish practice of some.

In other words, the practical response to seeing someone err is not to conclude they lost salvation, but that we should all pursue restoration and ensure they hear the gospel truth, erring on the side of sharing gospel truth with everyone, without offense, confirming they understand and believe the gospel of grace and the necessity for living a holy life in Christ Jesus.

The sole means of salvation is faith in what the Lord Jesus Christ did. Self-righteousness and reliance on religious status are insufficient and can leave even prominent religious figures unsaved.

MM

Only once in my life did I see... well He show me someone's heart. Thinking now... well they were talking oh so evil so wicked yet His presence came and I saw.. what I saw was something with in them that was nothing at all like they were acting. So I say "heart". I was in my 40's I am 65 now. I never knew someone could act like that and its not really who they are. We see someone (Christian) act doing wrong sin what ever and think .. that's who they are.. they do that over and over. Yet what He showed.. they were nothing like what I saw.

So when He says man sees the flesh (out side) HE sees the heart. These two "osas vs you can lose your salvation" are not thoughts that ever cross my mind. God has never in 50+ years walking with Him.. talked about it. My salvation is not based on how some other believer, follower of Christ interprets Gods word. The Father is faithful to what Christ already did.

It would seem based on things I hear over years salvation is nothing more then a choice and then you need to change or else. In your sin He found you. What He started in you He will finish. He not you He God created a new spirit something that was dead.. gone. That is not undone by some silly sin I do. He is real. Salvation is not just a choice. He made something new in you and He will not stop.

So.. I try not to touch children that belong to a GOD then the only true living GOD. Like how they are or not... I pray for them help them.. I do not touch them. So yeah..we can fall miss it goof up.. and He never gives up on you. Its why is written today not tomorrow.. today is the day of savation. Do you know Him? If you goofed up missed its.. sin.. repent get up dust keep going.

Don't run with what some "Christian" says about your salvation. It a gift from GOD not man and you can not earn it no matter how sinless you are.

 

[awelight]

Indeed? How do you know anyone is saved or not just by looking at them and what they're doing or saying? Is it the external by which you judge them, what most call their "fruit"?

In other words, if you see a neighbor who says he was once saved, and then he hits upon a stretch in his life where he "lives like the devil," you can say that you personally know that he was never really saved in the first place?

What about all the rest of his life that you may or may not see, up to the point he takes his last breath? Is that what places the finality upon your judgement of him if he continues in his sinful state up to the point of death?

I'm asking because I've heard all this before and most...they stumble about with justifications for what they could never know, all while avoiding this:

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So, that man or woman was saved, and then withdrew...for whatever reason, right up to their last breath, and this verse will likely be absolutely applicable to them, but you...you seem to know something contrary to what this verse and other verses and contexts reject about your stated position. Why is that?

Who have you ever known in your life that you could point your finger at and say to them that, although they thought they were once saved, they were never saved to begin with on the basis of what you personally observed in their lives up to that point?

Who sits on that Judgement Seat of Christ Jesus? Given that we ALL still sin, each and every day, I can say that I'm glad that it's He who is on that Throne, and not some man looking at the externals.

Does that make sense? Does that strike a chord?

Thoughts?

MM

I agree with you, on the difficulty believers have in knowing if another is truly saved. There are certain Biblical tests that every believer should execute when examining another BUT first, believers need to examine themselves: 2Cor. 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Here are a few of the tests we are commanded to use towards others:
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Ultimately, believers can only judge from what they see, read or hear from another. As to the final verdict - no human can proclaim - only God knows for certain His own in salvation: John 10:14,15 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
As to life styles - many may look good on the surface but only God can judge the motives of ones heart.

In conclusion, we can only judge what we can know - in the end, God will make the final separation of the Sheep from the Goats.

 

[Musicmaster]

It is not 'works-based salvation'. John is his gospel and letters uses the word 'believes' in a continuous sense. One does not only have to believe initially to be saved but continue to believe to stay saved. This is not works but faith or the lack of it.

Indeed? Please elaborate on what this means:

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Many ignore the ramifications of this statement, among others, and stay the course of what you've said above. So, what does this mean if not that even falling into unbelief, one is still saved on the basis of HIS faithfulness rather than ours. If our salvation is rooted in our own faithfulness, then how can any of us be saved given that we all sin on a daily basis. What is sin in relation to faith?

Do you see the problem here?

2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath [past tense] also sealed us [past tense], and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Earnest...a financial term used to describe a spiritual reality...in that the Lord will never forfeit His own Spirit on the basis of that sealing.

Who have you ever known who was UNSEALED by Holy Spirit, and where does scripture ever reveal such a concept?

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted [past tense], after that ye heard [past tense] the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed [past tense], ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise [again, past tense],

How do you get past all this among so many verses (given that there are others) that speak of the initial faith sealing one with an earnest the Lord will never forfeit. Do you see the problems here when adding to the word of God some alleged loss of salvation on the basis of a waning or absent faith?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I do not believe works gets you to heaven. I do believe that works proves you're saved. Works shows proof of fruit which is proof of salvation.

Yes. Saved, not BEING saved as some seem to believe, because the past tense of the statements quoted above are unmistakable.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I believe there's a difference between being Saved by the knowledge of knowing Yeshua and the actual transformation that takes place during Regeneration. I don't believe everyone that claims to be Saved has necessarily been filled with the Holy Spirit. But some Doctrines proclaim that Regeneration happens to anyone Saved and if you read the examples throughout the Book of Acts you clearly see a 2 step process of accepting Yeshua and then the Holy Spirit coming upon you and filling you.

I therefore believe the Regenerated won't be living like the devil after their Conversion.

Are you referring to Acts 2:38?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I agree with you, on the difficulty believers have in knowing if another is truly saved. There are certain Biblical tests that every believer should execute when examining another BUT first, believers need to examine themselves: 2Cor. 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Here are a few of the tests we are commanded to use towards others:
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Ultimately, believers can only judge from what they see, read or hear from another. As to the final verdict - no human can proclaim - only God knows for certain His own in salvation: John 10:14,15 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
As to life styles - many may look good on the surface but only God can judge the motives of ones heart.

In conclusion, we can only judge what we can know - in the end, God will make the final separation of the Sheep from the Goats.

Yes, God alone is the Judge. We can judge the "fruit" we see emanating from others, but that is not a basis for judging salvation for others, with which you seem to agree. I know some who believed, then lost a child, and now claim to not believe. Some will say, "Ah HE! See? THAT person lost their salvation."

To that I ask...how do they know? Has the faithfulness of Christ, upon which all our salvation rests, somehow waned for some and not for others? Where is that in scripture, because this clearly states what it says:

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

What some are saying is a rewording of this very scripture:

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth NOT faithful: he CAN deny himself.

Do you see the problem here...among others?

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned [future tense], he shall suffer loss [future tense]: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Is faith not one of the things with which we continue to build within our lives, along with all the other good works defined in tHE Law? [That's not to say that faith is a work, because it is not, but it is part of what drives us to good works.]

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I didn't mean to say "other" works above. I tried to take that out but this board affords so little time for edits.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

In Romans 7:15, Paul describes doing what he hates and failing to do what he wills, illustrating the internal conflict in a saved person.

In Romans 7:17, Paul attributes sinful actions to “sin that dwelleth in me,” affirming that sin dwells even in saved individuals.

In Romans 7:24, Paul’s cry, “O wretched man that I am!” underscores the ongoing struggle with sin in the believer’s life, including a foundational apostle.

In 1 Corinthians 5:1, Paul reports a case of fornication “not so much as named among the Gentiles” (one having his father’s wife). Paul does not declare the offender lost; instead, he instructs that the person be put out of the assembly (church discipline).

So, the texts indicate “a brother can err,” meaning a saved person may commit serious sin. This counters the notion that grievous sin automatically indicates lack of salvation.

Therefore, instances of open sin do not logically disprove “once saved, always saved,” as some seem to hate with a passion beyond reason. Why anyone would ever judge another's salvation on the basis of the appearance, or upon actual, sin when they themselves still struggle with sin just like all the rest of us, I'm floored by this level of attempt at usurpation of the Throne of Christ by fallen beings.

MM

 

[2Christ]

How does one reconcile “once saved, always saved” with cases where, for example, a pastor, religious leader of some sort or even a layman acquaintance of yours lives in open sin and even claims God sanctioned their ungodly relationship.

None of us, as humans, can definitively know another person’s salvation status. Salvation isn't evidenced by roles like pastor or seminary graduate but solely by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Even saved individuals, including the Apostle Paul, struggle with sin due to the sin nature; a malady that not one of us can claim to have overcome. See Romans 7:15, 17, and 24. See also 1 Corinthians 5:1–5, which shows to us that a brother can commit grievous sin and should be disciplined (put out of the assembly) rather than presumed lost, as is the devilish practice of some.

In other words, the practical response to seeing someone err is not to conclude they lost salvation, but that we should all pursue restoration and ensure they hear the gospel truth, erring on the side of sharing gospel truth with everyone, without offense, confirming they understand and believe the gospel of grace and the necessity for living a holy life in Christ Jesus.

The sole means of salvation is faith in what the Lord Jesus Christ did. Self-righteousness and reliance on religious status are insufficient and can leave even prominent religious figures unsaved.

MM

when is someone saved? at what moment exactly according to scripture? who decides who is saved? what are GOD's criteria for salvation??

 

[Mem]

Mustard seed faith represents mountainous potential. And, seeing the fact that we are perfected in love, then that love is the kernel in that mustard seed. You might not notice that one is saved until you look again and see the mountain.

 

[Musicmaster]

when is someone saved? at what moment exactly according to scripture? who decides who is saved? what are GOD's criteria for salvation??

Excellent question. Paul had the answer for us:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Any and all additions to that are mere religion, and false religion at that...

MM

 

[Delvianna]

Excellent question. Paul had the answer for us:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Any and all additions to that are mere religion, and false religion at that...

MM

Paul speaks specifically in certain letters based on who he is writing to and the issue at hand. Don't cherry pick verses and declare that is all salvation is when other books make caveat statements.

 

[Musicmaster]

Paul speaks specifically in certain letters based on who he is writing to and the issue at hand. Don't cherry pick verses and declare that is all salvation is when other books make caveat statements.

I understand what you're saying, but let's look at who Paul was and to whom he ministered:

Romans 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

1 Timothy 2:7
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not; a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2 Timothy 1:11
Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

It's quite unmistakable to whom he was speaking, which is the body of Christ, not Israel, as was the assignment given to the twelve. So, when addressing what Paul clearly meant for us today, and given this:

Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Paul did preach to the circumcision, but only those who had not yet been under the ministry of the twelve and their Kingdom Gospel.

So, no cherry picking on my part, and no attempt on my part to deny, refuse and conveniently twist the meaning of "rightly dividing the word of truth" as some out there are in the habit of practicing.

MM

 

[Kroogz]

How does one reconcile “once saved, always saved” with cases where, for example, a pastor, religious leader of some sort or even a layman acquaintance of yours lives in open sin and even claims God sanctioned their ungodly relationship.

None of us, as humans, can definitively know another person’s salvation status. Salvation isn't evidenced by roles like pastor or seminary graduate but solely by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Even saved individuals, including the Apostle Paul, struggle with sin due to the sin nature; a malady that not one of us can claim to have overcome. See Romans 7:15, 17, and 24. See also 1 Corinthians 5:1–5, which shows to us that a brother can commit grievous sin and should be disciplined (put out of the assembly) rather than presumed lost, as is the devilish practice of some.

In other words, the practical response to seeing someone err is not to conclude they lost salvation, but that we should all pursue restoration and ensure they hear the gospel truth, erring on the side of sharing gospel truth with everyone, without offense, confirming they understand and believe the gospel of grace and the necessity for living a holy life in Christ Jesus.

The sole means of salvation is faith in what the Lord Jesus Christ did. Self-righteousness and reliance on religious status are insufficient and can leave even prominent religious figures unsaved.

MM

You know as well as I do. The self-righteous, loss of salvation crowd is in a worse spot than any "sinning believer."

Sin will eat a believer up eventually, but self righteousness and pride in our supposed "cleaned" up flesh usually takes the grave to clean up.

 

[Musicmaster]

You know as well as I do. The self-righteous, loss of salvation crowd is in a worse spot than any "sinning believer."

Sin will eat a believer up eventually, but self righteousness and pride in our supposed "cleaned" up flesh usually takes the grave to clean up.

That's another way to put it. yes. I agree. Any doctrinal stance whereby one reduces the absolute sufficiency of the Blood of Christ down to boasting in the flesh, that's indeed a horrid place I don't want to be accused before Him.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

According to Ephesians 1:13, salvation occurs when a person hears “the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation,” and trusts it.

Upon believing, the individual is “sealed with that holy spirit of promise.” (Eph. 1:13)

The sealing by the Holy Spirit happens instantly upon faith in the gospel. This sealing means salvation is maintained by Holy Spirit, not by a saved individual’s ongoing actions. Holy Spirit is the “earnest” (guarantee or down payment) of the believer’s inheritance until final redemption.

Salvation isn't dependent on “walking in the Spirit” or cleaning up one’s act, citing Ephesians 1:13–14 and Ephesians 2:8–9. Believers are declared righteous through faith, not through their own righteous living. While believers should walk in the Spirit, their salvation doesn't depend on it, contrary to the beliefs of false teaching pastors and false teaching religions touting works-based array of sacraments for some alleged salvation through a contrived savior they believe in through invention and joining with pagan ideas.

The common view of repentance as changing one’s manner of living or quitting sinful habits is incorrect. Scripturally speaking, “repent” means a “change of heart” or “change of mind,” not continual begging for forgiveness even though many uphold asking for forgiveness is some soft of virtue. Where its true that leaning toward works-based salvational models such as the works of begging for what has already been accomplished on the cross, doing so does indeed harmonize with our fleshly bent upon works for salvation.

Example of Repentance from Genesis in Genesis 6:5–6 is cited: “it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth.” Here, God did not stop sinning; rather, He had a “change of heart” about creating mankind, which “grieved him at his heart,. This supports the fact that repentance as a change of heart, not cessation of sin.

Repentance in the Context of Salvation is a “change of mind” is necessary to be saved; turning from not believing the gospel to believing it. This is a one-time event for salvation and is distinct from quitting old, bad habits, since salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast. Oh, but so many boast in their works through instructions of works-based concepts for salvation. Indirect boasting should be a warning sign to all that such individuals are not follows of the biblical Christ Jesus but rather some fabricated being who doesn't exist.

Misconceptions About Continual Repentance beg the question of, “After you are saved, do you have to continually repent?” This arises from teachings that the truly saved will live a holy life and must “clean up their act,” which is works-based salvation that calls into question the sufficiency in the Blood of Christ and His work. Since salvation is maintained by Holy Spirit through the sealing act of the Spirit, continual repentance (as works) is not required to stay saved because one cannot become unsealed or un-born again.

MM

 

[Delvianna]

I understand what you're saying, but let's look at who Paul was and to whom he ministered:

Romans 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

1 Timothy 2:7
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not; a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2 Timothy 1:11
Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

It's quite unmistakable to whom he was speaking, which is the body of Christ, not Israel, as was the assignment given to the twelve. So, when addressing what Paul clearly meant for us today, and given this:

Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Paul did preach to the circumcision, but only those who had not yet been under the ministry of the twelve and their Kingdom Gospel.

So, no cherry picking on my part, and no attempt on my part to deny, refuse and conveniently twist the meaning of "rightly dividing the word of truth" as some out there are in the habit of practicing.

MM

You're completely missing the point I made which wasn't about whether his letters are written to the Body of Christ or anything about circumcision. My point was that you're taking one set of passages (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and declaring that it is the entirety of salvation.

Saying Paul wrote to the Body of Christ doesn't establish what salvation is and it doesn't justify treating that passage as exhaustive while overlooking other statements Paul makes on the same subject. Which is why I said this is cherry picking. Cherry picking definition is the act of selectively choosing only the most desirable, beneficial, or attractive items from a group while intentionally ignoring the rest.

So for example, Paul also says:

• Romans 11:22 - Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
• 2 Timothy 2:12 - "If we deny him, he also will deny us."
• Romans 6: 17-18 - "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."
• Philippians 2:12 - ...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
• Philippians 2:14 - Do all things without complaining and disputing; that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

That's why I said not to take one set of passages and declare that its salvation is while overlooking the rest of what scripture says, even within Paul's own writings.

 

[Delvianna]

You know as well as I do. The self-righteous, loss of salvation crowd is in a worse spot than any "sinning believer."

Sin will eat a believer up eventually, but self righteousness and pride in our supposed "cleaned" up flesh usually takes the grave to clean up.

Do you believe that all people who believe you can lose salvation automatically are self-righteous? Because making sweeping statements like this in your comment just makes you sound like a hypocrite.

 

[Musicmaster]

You're completely missing the point I made which wasn't about whether his letters are written to the Body of Christ or anything about circumcision. My point was that you're taking one set of passages (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and declaring that it is the entirety of salvation.

What does that even mean? Are you saying Paul was not inspired to write that in 1 Cor 15? When the Lord inspired him to write down, "by which also ye are saved," in verse 2, what else could that have meant? Is the Lord somehow lacking in the ability to inspire precisely what the Lord meant? Are the biblical words subjective? Please clarify.

Saying Paul wrote to the Body of Christ doesn't establish what salvation is and it doesn't justify treating that passage as exhaustive while overlooking other statements Paul makes on the same subject.

So, again, what's your point in that statement? How much more "exhastive," (whatever that means) can it be than to say that by those three elements within which one must place his faith, that one is then saved...BY his statement?

Which is why I said this is cherry picking. Cherry picking definition is the act of selectively choosing only the most desirable, beneficial, or attractive items from a group while intentionally ignoring the rest.

So for example, Paul also says:

• Romans 11:22 - Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Again, this has nothing to do with salvation. I am Israeli, and Israel has been cut off and yet I am still saved by believing what Paul stated as the foundational element for salvation, which is faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus. There's nothing more to salvation, and you're bringing up the issue of branches and their status in relation to the vine as a collective people?

Why are you convoluting the topic by trying to intermix the relationship with the vine as a collective when salvation is an individual matter? Please enlighten me on that.

• 2 Timothy 2:12 - "If we deny him, he also will deny us."

Context, context and context! Please look at the context of that passage, which states NOTHING about salvation! The immdiate predecessor statement is about reigning with Christ:

2 Timothy 2:12-13
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

It's interesting that you left out reigning as a part of that statement, joined by the colon (which conjoins two sentences, the second amplifying the first...for those out there who are grammatically challenged), and also the immediately following passage where it clearly states that going into disbelief, the Lord remains faithful because He cannot deny Himself. So, if one is going to inject salvation into the meaning, then one must consider that salvation isn't based upon personal faithfulness, but rather upon the faithfulness of Christ Jesus.

• Romans 6: 17-18 - "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."
• Philippians 2:12 - ...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
• Philippians 2:14 - Do all things without complaining and disputing; that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

That's why I said not to take one set of passages and declare that its salvation is while overlooking the rest of what scripture says, even within Paul's own writings.

Your deplorable system of hermeneutics would indeed fail within my and other of my colleague's theology classes. This practice so many have by way of injecting salvation into whatever contexts one so desires, thus making salvation a matter of works and boasting, I find this practice horrid and Luciferian in origin.

Case in point from above: Work OUT, not FOR, your salvation. What results from one working outwardly one's salvation? Verse 13 og Philippians 2 gives the answer:

13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

That "For" in also conjunctive, not a separator.

Additionally, where Paul did indeed speak of salvation in other contexts of his inspired writings, it's never done as a caveated addition to nor negation away from what he stated emphatically in his most important foundation laid in 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4. Suggesting, either explicitly or alluding to such indirectly, that Paul was only summarizing or was incomplete in 1 Cor. 15 what is stated therein, that casts a pall of indignity and untrustworthiness upon the scriptures that I find repugnant, to say the least.

You really should learn in silence when not applying scripture in honest presentation and usage.

MM

 

[rewriter]

What does it mean to "live like the devil"? There are many sins I can think of that are very obvious and easy to spot, are these the actions you speak of? Are they any less a sin than the more hidden ones? Remember that God decrees EVERY SIN an abomination. Now I agree that the more obvious sins should be among the first to actively avoid, but who besides God can truly know an individual's heart and what motivates their specific actions. Perhaps they have ordered the issues in their life that they wish to work on to improve, and the actions we are noticing are just further down their list than we think they should be.