The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8

[Researcher]

This is an issue/topic for another thread;

I noticed both you and @JustThinking have said the same thing. From my perspective, the two of you may as well have said, "Don't talk about those verses because it will expose just how wrong my theories are." I find it strange that we are not allowed to talk about something that has everything to do the the topic of the Little Horns of Daniel 7 and 8. The two topics are literally entangled with one another. I'm reminded of that phrase 'Nothing to see here, move along.'

For example:

Daniel 8:9 - And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

OK, so now we have a verse about the Little Horn of Daniel 8. When is this Little Horn supposed to show up?

Daniel 8:14 - And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The answer to the whole riddle as to who or what the Little Horn is all about is right there in the 2300 days, yet we are not supposed to talk about it? Are you kidding me? All one has to do is determine when the Sanctuary will be cleansed and the Little Horn can be narrowed down to a very specific point in time. The question is when?

Let's ask AI...



The difference between those two time periods is immense. This problem obviously needs to be solved in order to have any kind if intelligent discussion on the Little Horn. Yet again, 'damage control' is telling us to move along. Seems sus. Talk about 'red flags'.

Let's ask AI another question: "Can the sanctuary being cleansed be related to the crucifixion?"


OK great, so now we have another date to consider, the date of the Crucifixion. The Little Horn of Daniel 8 may show up around that time.

The next question is: Do any of these dates that the AI suggested fit the actual text? This is why the other 'days' prophecies become important. Again, this is Book of Daniel stuff that should be discussed here in this thread and not conveniently swept under the rug.

What do you think 'time appointed' means in these verses?

Daniel 11:27 And both these kings’ hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

Daniel 11:29 - At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

Daniel 11:35 - And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

What is the 'time appointed'? The time appointed is Daniel's 1260, 1290, 1335 and 2300 days, again related to the Little Horn.

What is the end? The answer will determine who or what the Little Horn of Daniel 8 is.

To me, and to many others, it is quite obvious that the time appointed has to do with the times of Jesus. The 'end' is somewhere between the birth of Jesus and the 70AD event, which depends on the 1260, 1290, 1335 and 2300 days. Yet somehow we have to connect it to the Papacy, or else we get the standard "Have a nice day" dismissal from the OP.

 

[JustThinking]

I noticed both you and @JustThinking have said the same thing. From my perspective, the two of you may as well have said, "Don't talk about those verses because it will expose just how wrong my theories are." I find it strange that we are not allowed to talk about something that has everything to do the the topic of the Little Horns of Daniel 7 and 8. The two topics are literally entangled with one another. I'm reminded of that phrase 'Nothing to see here, move along.'

For example:



OK, so now we have a verse about the Little Horn of Daniel 8. When is this Little Horn supposed to show up?



The answer to the whole riddle as to who or what the Little Horn is all about is right there in the 2300 days, yet we are not supposed to talk about it? Are you kidding me? All one has to do is determine when the Sanctuary will be cleansed and the Little Horn can be narrowed down to a very specific point in time. The question is when?

Let's ask AI...

View attachment 292226

The difference between those two time periods is immense. This problem obviously needs to be solved in order to have any kind if intelligent discussion on the Little Horn. Yet again, 'damage control' is telling us to move along. Seems sus. Talk about 'red flags'.

Let's ask AI another question: "Can the sanctuary being cleansed be related to the crucifixion?"

View attachment 292227
OK great, so now we have another date to consider, the date of the Crucifixion. The Little Horn of Daniel 8 may show up around that time.

The next question is: Do any of these dates that the AI suggested fit the actual text? This is why the other 'days' prophecies become important. Again, this is Book of Daniel stuff that should be discussed here in this thread and not conveniently swept under the rug.

What do you think 'time appointed' means in these verses?







What is the 'time appointed'? The time appointed is Daniel's 1260, 1290, 1335 and 2300 days, again related to the Little Horn.

What is the end? The answer will determine who or what the Little Horn of Daniel 8 is.

To me, and to many others, it is quite obvious that the time appointed has to do with the times of Jesus. The 'end' is somewhere between the birth of Jesus and the 70AD event, which depends on the 1260, 1290, 1335 and 2300 days. Yet somehow we have to connect it to the Papacy, or else we get the standard "Have a nice day" dismissal from the OP.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I may have mentioned that it may be nice to open a new thread just for these time elements... further, perhaps addressing each one of them individually. This is because each of these time elements are indeed very difficult to interpret and may require some interesting and substantial supporting information for their particular interpretation. i would thoroughly enjoy reading your interpretations and support for any of the prophetic verses in Daniel... It is such a wonderful yet difficult book to understand and it is even more difficult trying to ensure one can deliver all of the supporting information sitting behind the interpretation.

Daniel 7 relies on the interpretations of chapter 2 and then chapter 8 moves the needle even further than in chapter 7, but they all MUST be consistent and complimentary. And chapter 11 is certainly no exception - it also fits perfectly with those 3 earlier chapters - of course alongside of chapter 9... but I am quite sure after almost completing your work on Daniel you realize just how difficult it is to unpack. I would say that most of the people interested in Daniel spend their time reading, understanding and contemplating on those interpretations that are considered "today's accepted interpretation" that have been generated by a few scholars and then repeated by so many but with their own voice. So, it is my interest and desire to try and discuss each of the major prophetic verses SLOWLY so the logic / reasoning / support can be also made available and then subject to their acceptance or not. Most folks seem to simply spit out their conclusions of a certain prophetic verse which came from some other commentator....



As you can readily see here within this particular topic, there is a mountain of information that is ususally required to support one's conclusion since everyone has a very different set of interpretations and just as importantly, no interpretation stands alone.

 

[Researcher]

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I may have mentioned that it may be nice to open a new thread just for these time elements... further, perhaps addressing each one of them individually.

I did just recently.

Daniel 7 relies on the interpretations of chapter 2 and then chapter 8 moves the needle even further than in chapter 7, but they all MUST be consistent and complimentary.

If you don't mind, I would like to ask you a question. Do you think that viewing the Little Horns in Daniel 7 and 8 as separate entities in different time periods has any validity?

Here is an example:

Q: Do the references to the Little Horns in Daniel 7 and 8 have to be the exaxct same entity?



Thanks.

 

[JustThinking]

@Researcher

Ok, I just reread your post and I would like to offer a comment or two that does not continue the discussion within chapter 2 - trying to discuss the identity of the 4 kingdoms, the identity of the clay within the feet and most importantly, the interpretation of verse 2:34. The reason I feel these must be discussed before we move onto the identity of just who is this little horn of chapter 7 and 8 is because chapter 7 and 8 build off of chapter 2 is so many ways. If one does not properly understand the prophetic messages that God is giving us in the formal structure of chapter 2, there is absolutely no possibility of interpreting the REST OF DANIEL. And this is exactly, in my studies, have indeed happened. Everyone has accepted that 2:34 is an end time event and they have completely misidentified the clay element and the timing of those events. But, after reading your response aqain, I will immediately start a new discussion on the 2300 days prophecy.

 

[JustThinking]

I did just recently.



If you don't mind, I would like to ask you a question. Do you think that viewing the Little Horns in Daniel 7 and 8 as separate entities in different time periods has any validity?

Here is an example:

Q: Do the references to the Little Horns in Daniel 7 and 8 have to be the exaxct same entity?

View attachment 292228

Thanks.

The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 are indeed one and the same. The little horn comes out of the 4th beast kingdom in Daniel 7 --- and this is one reason it is critical to ensure we properly understand chapter 2. I will agree that JUST ABOUT EVERYONE contends that the little horn of Daniel 8 may be different than the little horn identified in chapter 7 but that is almost entirely due to their gross misinterpretation of chapter 11 - that is, the little horn of Daniel 8 emerges from one of the 4 divisions of the Greek empire after the death of Alexander. They take those few verses and send them back to chapter 8 to treat the little horn of chapter 8 differently than the little horn of chapter 7. As you can see how easily and quickly these discussions can take on a life of their own and usually never come back to the original purpose of the post.

 

[JustThinking]

Here is a brief summary of Daniel 2, without attempting to address every detail in verses 40–45. Those verses deserve fuller treatment, but the following points present the basic interpretation of the chapter. So, this is presented so anyone might comment / agree / disagree / etc., with this relatively brief chapter 2 interpretation before we might move on to the original purpose of the post - the discussion of the identity of the little horn. I really would like to hear your comments - either way.

1. The image represents four kingdoms​

The great image is made of four metals, each representing a separate historical kingdom:

1. Gold — Babylon
2. Silver — Medo-Persia
3. Bronze — Greece
4. Iron — Rome, beginning with Pagan Rome

Daniel does not introduce a fifth metal or a fifth earthly kingdom. The feet remain part of the fourth kingdom, although iron is now joined by clay.

2. The clay represents God’s covenant people​

In this interpretation, the clay within the iron feet represents Israel, God’s covenant people, living under Roman rule.

The Jewish people were permitted to retain many of their religious customs and to worship the one true God, but politically they remained subject to Rome. The clay therefore exists within the iron kingdom but does not control it.

3. The clay appears at the time of the Messiah​

The timing is important. When the prophecy reaches the feet of iron and clay, the seventy-weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 is approaching its completion.

Israel is awaiting the Messiah, but many expect Him to arrive as a conquering king who will overthrow Rome and restore a kingdom like that of David.

Instead, the Messiah comes first as the suffering Servant. He does not come at that time to destroy the Roman Empire. He comes to bring salvation and to create division according to how people respond to Him.

4. The Stone strikes the feet​

In Daniel 2:34, the Messiah is represented by the Stone cut out without human hands. The Stone strikes the feet of the image, where iron and clay are found together.

The Stone does not yet destroy the entire image. That complete destruction occurs in verse 35 and points to Christ’s return and the final removal of all earthly kingdoms.

The first impact of the Stone therefore takes place at Christ’s first coming. Its immediate purpose is not the political destruction of Rome, but the spiritual separation created by the coming of the Messiah.

5. The Stone divides the clay​

The coming of Christ separates the clay from the iron, but it also produces a division within the clay itself.

Before the cross, Daniel 2:33 describes the feet as being partly iron and partly clay, with iron mentioned first. This reflects Pagan Rome’s visible political dominance over Israel.

In the interpretation of verse 41, however, the clay is mentioned first. This change in emphasis directs attention to what the coming of the Stone has produced among God’s covenant people.

The clay now represents two different responses to the Messiah.

One part is like potter’s clay—soft, yielded, and able to be shaped by God. This represents those within Israel who receive Christ and allow themselves to be formed through Him.

The other part is hardened and resistant. It represents those who retain the outward forms of religion but refuse the Messiah and cannot be reshaped by His coming.

The cross therefore becomes the dividing line within Israel. Those who accept the Messiah become the believing remnant and the beginning of the Jewish-Christian Church. Their mission is not to overthrow Rome by force, but to carry the message of God’s kingdom throughout the Roman world.

As the gospel spreads, this Jewish witness expands into a largely Gentile Church. What begins as a spiritual division within Israel gradually becomes visible within the Roman Empire itself.

The Stone’s impact occurs at the first coming of Christ, but the condition described in the feet and toes develops over the following centuries. The separation begins spiritually at the cross and then unfolds historically as the Church grows within Rome.

Daniel 2:41 therefore introduces a new phase of the fourth kingdom. Rome remains the iron kingdom, but the coming of the Messiah changes its internal story. The clay becomes the central focus because God is now revealing the divided response of His covenant people and the rise of the Church within the Roman world.

 

[WayneNSO]

View attachment 292226

I do not like that AI associates Historism with the SDA church. I am a Historist and I do not consider what they say is Historism as really Historism at all.

They have twisted it to incorperate the teachings of their prophetess Ellen G White, with emphesis on not keeping the sabbeth is the mark of the beast etc.

They take the wound that was healed - which in historism meant Rome was rivived after it was destroyed in the Holy Roman Empire and then the European Union etc, and they move it forward to the Papacy being revived after the French Revolution.

Then they go on to make the USA the final beast Empire, which is not the historist view.

As for the 2300 days:

Most Historist see the short term fulfilment of the 2300 days as being fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes (same as Preterist view), and a long term fulfillment of 2300 years, starting from the rise of the He-Goat (the Grecian Empire ) crossing into europe from asia - 334BC - forward 2300 years we come to 1967 which was the Mohameddan power was removed from the Holy Land and the temple site was lost by them.

 

[Vucesa]

The 'time of trouble' I believe is Jacob's Trouble and the beginning of the Great Tribulation which continues to this very day. The finished work on the Cross is when everyone written in the Book of Life is saved. Etc. Etc.

Does that mean you are a historicist? I have heard of the great tribulation being past and future but never that it started back then and has continued on till this day. How does that work?

 

[WayneNSO]

I have a problem with the Antiochus Epiphanes interpretation, not saying it is wrong just that I have doubts.

When observing the sucession of world empires Daniel says Medo-Persia is "great" (Daniel 8:4), Greece is "very great" (Daniel 8:8) but the little horn is "exceeding great" (Daniel 8:9). Now if you was to ask the average person have they ever heard of Antiochus Epiphanes, they will not know who he is, why? because he was not exceeding great, if he was then everyone would know who he is. Plus he died about 164 years before Christ came in the flesh.

 

[JustThinking]

Would anyone would like to comment on the summary of the chapter 2 interpretations presented in post #126 above? Specifically, regarding the identity of the clay and verse 2:34 BEFORE we move onto chapter 7 and try to identify the little horn?

If not interested any longer, no problem... but I will send this to those addresses that had shown an interest earlier, thanks.
- @Researcher , @HeIsHere, @TMS, @Delvianna, @tablet123, @Vucesa, @Adstar, @Omegatime, @2ndTimeIsTheCharm, @dkontner -----if still interested, thanks. Forgot @WayneNSO

 

[Delvianna]

Would anyone would like to comment on the summary of the chapter 2 interpretations presented in post #126 above? Specifically, regarding the identity of the clay and verse 2:34 BEFORE we move onto chapter 7 and try to identify the little horn?

If not interested any longer, no problem... but I will send this to those addresses that had shown an interest earlier, thanks.
- @Researcher , @HeIsHere, @TMS, @Delvianna, @tablet123, @Vucesa, @Adstar, @Omegatime, @2ndTimeIsTheCharm, @dkontner -----if still interested, thanks. Forgot @WayneNSO

Okay, so I went through your post and wanted to give you some things that I think of as far as what you've written so far.

1&2 - I can see why you would come to the conclusion you do, but think of this symbolically. Clay hasn't been hardened in a kiln yet, so its mush, its easy to mold, easy to work. That doesn't sound like Gods covenant. This is an interpretation of how strong/attributes the kingdom itself is. So for the toes, its iron mixed with clay. So, partially strong, but partially weak.

3- There is no indication of a 10 ruler coalition nation in history. This is why most people view this as futuristic and cannot be around the time of Jesus, because Rome was a single Nation, but had between 40-50 provinces. That's far passed 10.

4&5 - The stone is Jesus, which proves the 10 toes can't also be Jesus or the Church that you mention in point 2 and 5. Would Jesus bash his own people? This is also why people view this as future, the 10 king nation during the tribulation period that with Jesus's second coming, He destroys. Jesus is the stone not forged by human hands that then turns into a mountain and destroys the Anti-Christs 10 king nation at His coming.

I do believe Iron is Rome as far as the legs but when you get to the toes, I do not believe it is Rome still, but an entirely new nation of 10 sections. Because look at the previous. Babylon, Persia and Greece are different nations and in different locations. This statue represents essentially who is in charge of the world globally during certain periods of time. There hasn't necessarily been a single nation that has ruled since Rome. If Hitler won either war, then I think that could have been a prime candidate for the 10 toes.

 

[Delvianna]

Okay, so I went through your post and wanted to give you some things that I think of as far as what you've written so far.

1&2 - I can see why you would come to the conclusion you do, but think of this symbolically. Clay hasn't been hardened in a kiln yet, so its mush, its easy to mold, easy to work. That doesn't sound like Gods covenant. This is an interpretation of how strong/attributes the kingdom itself is. So for the toes, its iron mixed with clay. So, partially strong, but partially weak.

3- There is no indication of a 10 ruler coalition nation in history. This is why most people view this as futuristic and cannot be around the time of Jesus, because Rome was a single Nation, but had between 40-50 provinces. That's far passed 10.

4&5 - The stone is Jesus, which proves the 10 toes can't also be Jesus or the Church that you mention in point 2 and 5. Would Jesus bash his own people? This is also why people view this as future, the 10 king nation during the tribulation period that with Jesus's second coming, He destroys. Jesus is the stone not forged by human hands that then turns into a mountain and destroys the Anti-Christs 10 king nation at His coming.

I do believe Iron is Rome as far as the legs but when you get to the toes, I do not believe it is Rome still, but an entirely new nation of 10 sections. Because look at the previous. Babylon, Persia and Greece are different nations and in different locations. This statue represents essentially who is in charge of the world globally during certain periods of time. There hasn't necessarily been a single nation that has ruled since Rome. If Hitler won either war, then I think that could have been a prime candidate for the 10 toes.

I misremembered, it is baked clay, but Daniel still says it's brittle. So the nation itself is weak.

 

[Researcher]

The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 are indeed one and the same. The little horn comes out of the 4th beast kingdom in Daniel 7 --- and this is one reason it is critical to ensure we properly understand chapter 2. I will agree that JUST ABOUT EVERYONE contends that the little horn of Daniel 8 may be different than the little horn identified in chapter 7 but that is almost entirely due to their gross misinterpretation of chapter 11 - that is, the little horn of Daniel 8 emerges from one of the 4 divisions of the Greek empire after the death of Alexander. They take those few verses and send them back to chapter 8 to treat the little horn of chapter 8 differently than the little horn of chapter 7. As you can see how easily and quickly these discussions can take on a life of their own and usually never come back to the original purpose of the post.

Got it. I will keep an eye on this thread as it progresses and compare notes.

 

[GaryA]

I noticed both you and @JustThinking have said the same thing. From my perspective, the two of you may as well have said, "Don't talk about those verses because it will expose just how wrong my theories are." I find it strange that we are not allowed to talk about something that has everything to do the the topic of the Little Horns of Daniel 7 and 8. The two topics are literally entangled with one another. I'm reminded of that phrase 'Nothing to see here, move along.'

Oh, no - it is not anything like that...

The simple truth is this:

1) I am a big believer in letting the OP of a thread direct and guide the "flow" of the thread - it is their thread - and, folks should show at least a basic level-and-amount of respect toward the member who started the thread - just like you would like for others to do if it was your thread. In other words, I try to live and abide by the Golden Rule "the best I know how"...

2) The OP of this thread asked everyone to stick close to the topic in a way that would "progress" through the chapters of Daniel "bit by bit" to examine what each chapter disclosed concerning the little horn. In general, I am okay with an approach like this - because, (if done right) it helps to keep the discussion on track if it keeps everyone focused on the same point of discussion one-thing-at-a-time.

3) It tends to disrupt and destroy a conversation/discussion if/when someone comes in with a "I'll say what I d*** well please, and you can't stop me!" attitude. I try to never be guilty of such a thing - not in attitude nor in action. Some people on here like to "trash" my threads before the thread can reach the second page. I try to show respect to other members and not do that to anyone...

4) Since the OP asked folks to stay close to the particular topic of the little horn - AND - because there is currently another ongoing thread specifically about the various prophetic time spans you referred to - I thought it well enough to just refer that part of the discussion to the other thread. (or, another thread)

I am well aware that - when you study a topic in scripture - especially End Times prophecy - it will ultimately take you "all over the place" in scripture.

It is not that I want to avoid discussing anything. My view of the 2300 days, for example, is that they are literal [24-hour] days tied to the 167 B.C. AoD by Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the subsequent cleansing of the sanctuary.

I was just trying to stay within the [reasonable] "boundaries" set by the OP.

Let me tell you something - there is little worse on here than someone coming into your thread with an attitude that [effectively] says "Screw you! You do not own this site!" - which may be true; however, that kind of attitude does not exactly help anything. If they come into your thread with the intent to do their best to "trash" your thread - i.e. show total disrespect for another member of the site - it just doesn't "sit well" with those who are trying to have a decent and productive discussion.

Because of my experiences on this site in the past...

I am only attempting to show my willingness to treat others in their thread the way I would like to be treated when it is my thread.

I don't really concern myself too much with those who have the bad attitudes:

"Hey - it's their Judgment Day!" (They can just give an explanation to God later.)

I am just trying to act how/like a 'decent' member of the site might/would act - that is what it was really all about...

 

[Researcher]

Does that mean you are a historicist? I have heard of the great tribulation being past and future but never that it started back then and has continued on till this day. How does that work?

Hi @Vucesa . I'm not sure what I am, lol. I'm not a Preterist, I know that.

I believe that the abomination that maketh desolate was the Crucifixion. Everything connects backwards and forwards from there.

For example, this verse describes the 'desolation' that the Crucifixion caused around 70 AD:

Matthew 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Thus, I believe what everyone calls The Great Tribulation began at that time. However, we have verses like this:

Matthew 24:29-30 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Preterists will say it all happened already. I disagree. I believe Matthew 24:29-30 is still future. So, where does that leave us? It means that the Great Tribulation never ended. Note that I see this as mainly Jews that go through great tribulation as the message was mainly for them, however it can also apply to anyone.

We see verses describing this all over:

Acts 14:22 - Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

That being said, I believe all we are waiting for is the Great Tribulation to end. When will that happen? Here:

Luke 21:24 - And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

We have until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[Researcher]

Oh, no - it is not anything like that...

Thanks @GaryA for your insight. You are very wise and have the patience of the Saints.

Much love to you friend.

My apologies to everyone for getting too excited.

 

[GaryA]

I believe that in many of the places in Daniel where 'end' scenarios are mentioned - it is referring to the end of the 'Times of the Jews' and not the End Times Scenario; however, there are exceptions - very careful discernment is required...

 

[JustThinking]

Hi @Vucesa . I'm not sure what I am, lol. I'm not a Preterist, I know that.

I believe that the abomination that maketh desolate was the Crucifixion. Everything connects backwards and forwards from there.

For example, this verse describes the 'desolation' that the Crucifixion caused around 70 AD:



Thus, I believe what everyone calls The Great Tribulation began at that time. However, we have verses like this:



Preterists will say it all happened already. I disagree. I believe Matthew 24:29-30 is still future. So, where does that leave us? It means that the Great Tribulation never ended. Note that I see this as mainly Jews that go through great tribulation as the message was mainly for them, however it can also apply to anyone.

We see verses describing this all over:



That being said, I believe all we are waiting for is the Great Tribulation to end. When will that happen? Here:



We have until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

If you do not mind me making a quick comment here, the Book of Daniel is just so complicated but when / should be continue to all get together and slowly move from the metal man image directly to chapter 7, things will surely come into focus. That is why I am attempting to get you folks opinion on the two issues that are extremely important to identify (that is, without having to go into one of the most enigmatic set of verses the Good Lord ever created in 2:41-45).

If we can all challenge the perhaps two remaining issues in chapter 2 we should be able to come to some understanding about their identity so we can move to the early part of chapter 7 -- I promise, it will be worth it. (still not saying you will ever have to agree / accept my particular set of interpretations).

So, ANY comments regarding the clay or the Stone in 2:34 being His first coming and His mission to separate and divide His covenant people - those who would accept Him and go forth to preach the Good News after the cross and those He will come to label as "miry or ceramic" clay only because they rejected Him and hardened their heart. I will follow up a little later about the clay to hopefully convince you the clay within the iron feet is His covenant people BEFORE the Stone strikes - meaning, they are all one nation in the Jewish faith because the Messiah has yet to come.

 

[JustThinking]

I believe that in many of the places in Daniel where 'end' scenarios are mentioned - it is referring to the end of the 'Times of the Jews' and not the End Times Scenario; however, there are exceptions - very careful discernment is required...

That is so true. And we might also remember this same approach when we hear in Daniel that "something is sealed." They can and do have very different meanings than simply sealed until the end...

 

[JustThinking]

Oh, no - it is not anything like that...

The simple truth is this:

1) I am a big believer in letting the OP of a thread direct and guide the "flow" of the thread - it is their thread - and, folks should show at least a basic level-and-amount of respect toward the member who started the thread - just like you would like for others to do if it was your thread. In other words, I try to live and abide by the Golden Rule "the best I know how"...

2) The OP of this thread asked everyone to stick close to the topic in a way that would "progress" through the chapters of Daniel "bit by bit" to examine what each chapter disclosed concerning the little horn. In general, I am okay with an approach like this - because, (if done right) it helps to keep the discussion on track if it keeps everyone focused on the same point of discussion one-thing-at-a-time.

3) It tends to disrupt and destroy a conversation/discussion if/when someone comes in with a "I'll say what I d*** well please, and you can't stop me!" attitude. I try to never be guilty of such a thing - not in attitude nor in action. Some people on here like to "trash" my threads before the thread can reach the second page. I try to show respect to other members and not do that to anyone...

4) Since the OP asked folks to stay close to the particular topic of the little horn - AND - because there is currently another ongoing thread specifically about the various prophetic time spans you referred to - I thought it well enough to just refer that part of the discussion to the other thread. (or, another thread)

I am well aware that - when you study a topic in scripture - especially End Times prophecy - it will ultimately take you "all over the place" in scripture.

It is not that I want to avoid discussing anything. My view of the 2300 days, for example, is that they are literal [24-hour] days tied to the 167 B.C. AoD by Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the subsequent cleansing of the sanctuary.

I was just trying to stay within the [reasonable] "boundaries" set by the OP.

Let me tell you something - there is little worse on here than someone coming into your thread with an attitude that [effectively] says "Screw you! You do not own this site!" - which may be true; however, that kind of attitude does not exactly help anything. If they come into your thread with the intent to do their best to "trash" your thread - i.e. show total disrespect for another member of the site - it just doesn't "sit well" with those who are trying to have a decent and productive discussion.

Because of my experiences on this site in the past...

I am only attempting to show my willingness to treat others in their thread the way I would like to be treated when it is my thread.

I don't really concern myself too much with those who have the bad attitudes:

"Hey - it's their Judgment Day!" (They can just give an explanation to God later.)

I am just trying to act how/like a 'decent' member of the site might/would act - that is what it was really all about...

If you do not mind perhaps you might copy / paste this response to the 2300 days into the separate thread that was recently issued and others can see and comment on it as well.