In your opinion is the entire Bible "inerrant" or "infallible" as it relates to scripture?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The existence of the two calendars is supported by the DSS. I would have to dig back through my records to cite the reference for teh DSS calendar being far more common in Galilee than the official Judean one.
Yes, I’ve found the calendar reference in Allegro’s book. The Qumran sect evidently used the so-called Enoch calendar of exactly 52 weeks or 364 days in each year. That’s the only calendar he mentions apart from the standard Hebrew calendar which was strictly lunar.

Is this the calendar that you think the Galileans followed?
 
You are incisive in understanding that our partisan theology and doctrines are more of a hindrance to the Christ-like life than we realize. Without realizing it "our doctrines" are theological legacies of some, often unknown, persons of antiquity. They have one objective. They want people to believe that salvation come from choosing the "right theology," the "right creed" and that God only cares about the model you have of Him in your brain. All offer some version of instantaneous "salvation." A head nod to a 60 second pulpit prayer is all God asks of you and exactly why Jesus lived and died for you so you could claim to "let Jesus into your heart" but the unstated corollary is so you can keep Him out of your day to day life. We have become consumers of "orthodoxy" as well as it's defenders and we suffer for it.

None of the above has anything to do with living the day by day transformed life configured not by my inherited orthodoxy but by the living example of Jesus. Nothing is life is harder than change especially continuous change. That is what Jesus both requires and empowers. It is a life committed not to an orthodoxy but to the love of Jesus and our neighbor and a commitment to life changed powered by the Holy Spirit. The Christian life is all about imitation, about a day by day commitment to finding more and more Jesus in ourselves. IMHO it is not possible to fully grasp Jesus without loving like He does, healing like He does, delivering reconciliation like He does and sacrificing our priorities, passions and prospects in loving faith as He asks us to do.

Matthew 25 is a curse on brittle partisan theology and it is a validation of the Christ-centered life.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rewriter
Yes, I’ve found the calendar reference in Allegro’s book. The Qumran sect evidently used the so-called Enoch calendar of exactly 52 weeks or 364 days in each year. That’s the only calendar he mentions apart from the standard Hebrew calendar which was strictly lunar.

Is this the calendar that you think the Galileans followed?
Yes, thee records indicate that the Galileans were heavily supportive of the Essene movement and Jesus actually quoted from the "Great Isaiah Scroll" from the DSS. And Eusebius contains some further veiled hints.
 
Yes, thee records indicate that the Galileans were heavily supportive of the Essene movement and Jesus actually quoted from the "Great Isaiah Scroll" from the DSS. And Eusebius contains some further veiled hints.
Two points occur to me here. Galileans could have been “supportive” of the Essenes without abandoning the official calendar to adopt a radically different calendar instead. And, in any case, Jesus and the Twelve had arrived in Jerusalem as pilgrims to celebrate the Passover. Would the Temple authorities, who were Sadducees, have agreed to slaughter their lambs for them on what they themselves considered the wrong day? I don’t think so.
 
Yes, thee records indicate that the Galileans were heavily supportive of the Essene movement and Jesus actually quoted from the "Great Isaiah Scroll" from the DSS. And Eusebius contains some further veiled hints.
Let's claim distinction without a difference. The Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsa) is ≈95% identical to our modern Masoretic Text. When minor variants occur, they rarely alter fundamental doctrines
 
Let's claim distinction without a difference. The Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsa) is ≈95% identical to our modern Masoretic Text. When minor variants occur, they rarely alter fundamental doctrines
True, but how does one ascertain if adding or deleting entire verses is "minor", and rarely means it does happen.
 
Yes, thee records indicate that the Galileans were heavily supportive of the Essene movement and Jesus actually quoted from the "Great Isaiah Scroll" from the DSS. And Eusebius contains some further veiled hints.
Galileans used the lunisolar Hebrew calendar for religious and festival purposes, which tracked months by the moon and years by the sun. However, regional Galilean customs differed from Judean Temple practices; Galileans began their 24-hour day at sunrise rather than sunset, which occasionally shifted the observance of holy days.The Roman administration and civil sector used the Julian calendar, a 365-day solar system introduced by Julius Caesar in 46 BC. Because Galilee was under Roman provincial rule, residents interacted with this civil calendar for taxation and official government business. Furthermore, some Jewish sects in the region, such as the Essenes, utilized a strict 364-day solar calendar that kept the Sabbath and festivals on fixed days of the week
 
Two points occur to me here. Galileans could have been “supportive” of the Essenes without abandoning the official calendar to adopt a radically different calendar instead. And, in any case, Jesus and the Twelve had arrived in Jerusalem as pilgrims to celebrate the Passover. Would the Temple authorities, who were Sadducees, have agreed to slaughter their lambs for them on what they themselves considered the wrong day? I don’t think so.
the Jerusalem Temple leaders did not slaughter the Passover lamb for the Essenes. Because the Essenes utilized a distinct, ancient solar calendar that regularly placed Passover on a different day than the official Temple calendar, they fundamentally abstained from the Temple's sacrificial system.

The disconnect between the two groups can be broken down by their core beliefs and practices:
Differing Calendars: The official Jerusalem Temple (run by the Sadducees) followed a lunisolar calendar.
The Essenes (and the Qumran community) strictly followed a solar calendar consisting of 52 weeks and 364 days, meaning their Passover always fell on a Wednesday, while the Temple's observance floated depending on the moon.

Abstention from Sacrifice: The Essenes considered the Jerusalem priesthood corrupt. Because they could not observe the holy days according to their own calendar's timing, they did not bring their lambs to the Temple to be slaughtered.
 
the Jerusalem Temple leaders did not slaughter the Passover lamb for the Essenes. Because the Essenes utilized a distinct, ancient solar calendar that regularly placed Passover on a different day than the official Temple calendar, they fundamentally abstained from the Temple's sacrificial system.

The disconnect between the two groups can be broken down by their core beliefs and practices:
Differing Calendars: The official Jerusalem Temple (run by the Sadducees) followed a lunisolar calendar.
The Essenes (and the Qumran community) strictly followed a solar calendar consisting of 52 weeks and 364 days, meaning their Passover always fell on a Wednesday, while the Temple's observance floated depending on the moon.

Abstention from Sacrifice: The Essenes considered the Jerusalem priesthood corrupt. Because they could not observe the holy days according to their own calendar's timing, they did not bring their lambs to the Temple to be slaughtered.
Thank you, @biblestudent78. Is it safe to say, then, that any Galileans coming to Jerusalem for the Passover must have been using the same calendar as the Sadducees and consequently must have brought their lambs to the Temple on the same day as everyone else?
 
Thank you, @biblestudent78. Is it safe to say, then, that any Galileans coming to Jerusalem for the Passover must have been using the same calendar as the Sadducees and consequently must have brought their lambs to the Temple on the same day as everyone else?
We can never be "safe to say." Humans often do things that are unexpected. Pilgrims traveling to Jerusalem from Galilee for Passover routinely purchased their lambs upon arriving in the city rather than herding them along on the three-day journey.

While it was permitted to bring a personal lamb, doing so was impractical. The journey from Galilee to Jerusalem took several days, and the animal had to remain in pristine, unblemished condition to be accepted for Temple sacrifice. Transporting a sheep over rough terrain increased the risk of injury, which would disqualify it.To solve this problem, a massive market for Passover lambs was established in Jerusalem. The Temple authorities oversaw the inspection of animals to ensure they met all strict Levitical requirements. Because of this, most pilgrims, including Jesus and his disciples, arranged to buy their approved, ready-to-sacrifice lambs in the city just days before the Passover. Remember Jews from all over the western world came to Jerusalem for the major feasts, few could have brought unblemished lambs if those certifying and selling their own lambs had anything to say about it.

As to the calendar, for events within the Galilee their unique calendar was sufficient for their day to day needs. Once going to Jerusalem the Temple calendar rules applied. "When in Rome......"
 
We can never be "safe to say." Humans often do things that are unexpected. Pilgrims traveling to Jerusalem from Galilee for Passover routinely purchased their lambs upon arriving in the city rather than herding them along on the three-day journey.

While it was permitted to bring a personal lamb, doing so was impractical. The journey from Galilee to Jerusalem took several days, and the animal had to remain in pristine, unblemished condition to be accepted for Temple sacrifice. Transporting a sheep over rough terrain increased the risk of injury, which would disqualify it.To solve this problem, a massive market for Passover lambs was established in Jerusalem. The Temple authorities oversaw the inspection of animals to ensure they met all strict Levitical requirements. Because of this, most pilgrims, including Jesus and his disciples, arranged to buy their approved, ready-to-sacrifice lambs in the city just days before the Passover. Remember Jews from all over the western world came to Jerusalem for the major feasts, few could have brought unblemished lambs if those certifying and selling their own lambs had anything to say about it.

As to the calendar, for events within the Galilee their unique calendar was sufficient for their day to day needs. Once going to Jerusalem the Temple calendar rules applied. "When in Rome......"
Thank you, @biblestudent78. Yes, it was careless of me to write “their lambs.” I didn’t mean to imply that they had brought their lambs with them all the way from Galilee, just that the lambs were their property, even if they’d bought them from one of the many traders just five minutes before handing them over to a Levite or priest for slaughtering. If they’d paid for them, the lambs were now “theirs.”
 
  • Like
Reactions: biblestudent78
As to the calendar, for events within the Galilee their unique calendar was sufficient for their day to day needs. Once going to Jerusalem the Temple calendar rules applied. "When in Rome......"
Quote: "Once going to Jerusalem the Temple calendar rules applied. "When in Rome......"

Yes, this is the point I’m focusing on here. In the city of Jerusalem, and in particular in any context involving the priesthood and the Temple authorities, there obviously can only have been one single calendar in force. Everybody’s lambs were slaughtered on the same day and everybody ate them at their Passover meals on one and the same evening. That necessarily includes the Last Supper.
 
  • Like
Reactions: biblestudent78
True, but how does one ascertain if adding or deleting entire verses is "minor", and rarely means it does happen.
Rewriter, there are numerous examples of both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament were there are important changes that have been made in the transmission of the text. Some are huge. Compare the books of Samuel and the books of Chronicles that attempt to describe the exact same narrative but the stories could hardly be more different. They were written by different authors at a different time for different purposes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rewriter
Rewriter, there are numerous examples of both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament were there are important changes that have been made in the transmission of the text. Some are huge. Compare the books of Samuel and the books of Chronicles that attempt to describe the exact same narrative but the stories could hardly be more different. They were written by different authors at a different time for different purposes.
And in Isaiah 19:18, the name/title of a city changes. Some people try to claim that the changes are all minor, but when two different people are credited with killing Goliath, I think some are very serious.
 
And in Isaiah 19:18, the name/title of a city changes. Some people try to claim that the changes are all minor, but when two different people are credited with killing Goliath, I think some are very serious.
Sorry, where are we told that other people are credited with killing Goliath? I know we read of somebody other than David killing Goliath's brother:

(2Sa 21:19 NKJV) Again there was war at Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

I cannot think of anywhere in the Bible where it is said that anybody other than David killed Goliath. Do you know of a verse that says such a thing?
 
Sorry, where are we told that other people are credited with killing Goliath? I know we read of somebody other than David killing Goliath's brother:

(2Sa 21:19 NKJV) Again there was war at Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

I cannot think of anywhere in the Bible where it is said that anybody other than David killed Goliath. Do you know of a verse that says such a thing?
It depends on which translation one reads. In some translations 2 Samuel 21:19 the phrase "brother of Goliath" does not occur. Now whether that was a scribal error, on if scribes added the comment about the brother to avoid a contradiction is not certain.
 
It depends on which translation one reads. In some translations 2 Samuel 21:19 the phrase "brother of Goliath" does not occur. Now whether that was a scribal error, on if scribes added the comment about the brother to avoid a contradiction is not certain.
I doubt it was simply added, because 1 Chronicles say:

(1Ch 20:5 NKJV) Again there was war with the Philistines, and Elhanan the son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

There seems no doubt there that it was Goliath's brother. I have looked at 12 different English translations, and they all say, "Goliath's brother" or "the brother of Goliath."
 
I think the verses you quoted suggest something else. You are suggesting that the enemy is "secular humanism" whatever that means and "post modernism" whatever that means. However, the verses you quoted are not about battling external forces. They are about each and everyone of us being personally transformed through conforming our minds to Jesus. The perfect will of God is to love God with all you heart strength and mind and to love your neighbor as much as you love yourself. We must put on the new man, a righteous living man conforming with the love and grace by which God made us.

It has been my experience that those who call themselves Christians are big talkers about curing the world's problems, identifying all the "works of the devil" etc but pay no attention to what is called for in the 2 versus you quoted...personal renewed of a Godly loving and living human being that demonstrates via our daily lives the righteousness of a humble heart in transition.

Or we can focus our lives on pointing fingers at entire categories of people we don't personally know while avoiding real transformation, renewal and walking in love and self-sacrifice. In my opinion that is the challenge of our daily lives. Nothing in the world is powerful enough to steal you out of the hand of God, but we can walk away distracted by our personal holy wars, as if God can be defeated by human politics, movements and lifestyles so we must mount our own campaign against "evil doers" which we once were and are capable of doing again.
you do not know what Secular Humanism is? Nor have you heard of post modernism?

In your opinion is the entire Bible "inerrant" or "infallible" as it relates to scripture?​


I have provided clear a understanding of the position I and many others take on the word of God being completely without error.
 
you do not know what Secular Humanism is? Nor have you heard of post modernism?

In your opinion is the entire Bible "inerrant" or "infallible" as it relates to scripture?​


I have provided clear a understanding of the position I and many others take on the word of God being completely without error.
I too understand the "battle against" evil. However the definition of "evil" is up for grabs. A man who does not love his brother or his neighbor is condemned in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament not matter what theology his espouses.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rewriter
I too understand the "battle against" evil. However the definition of "evil" is up for grabs. A man who does not love his brother or his neighbor is condemned in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament not matter what theology his espouses.
in the context of biblical Theology, there is a liberal mind-set of interpretation. One must define what is biblical love. Saying "love your neighbor" has been taken out of context by many well intended people however, truth matters. The definition of evil from the word of God is very much defined and clear. in the Old Testament the Hebrew word "rah" means evil describes wickedness, bad , mischief. There are variations of this in the Old Testament speaking of one's actions or a lesser thing such as gossip. IN the New Testament Jesus speaks of evil done to us because of his name "ponēros" it is an adjective

Jesus In Mathew 6:34 called evil "kakia" or "kakos"


One's biblical theology must be supported by the authorial intent of the text. Has it been established as a normative or descriptive?

There is no doubt that the word evil contextually is not up for grabs, it is only watered down by many who pervert the love of God and his word to do "works" God said were evil and called sin.