I am so glad to decided to respond to this... I can assure you that I can count on one hand that number of folks that have come to the realization that the AOD is indeed the cross. Absolutely wonderful and when we get to that discussion it will be so interesting to discuss.
The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8
- Thread starter JustThinking
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In short, it is essentially this - we know with certainty from scripture exactly when the 'Great Tribulation' begins and when it ends - relative to other 'events' described/detailed in scripture.
In our history, we have actually seen the events associated with the beginning of it; however, we have not [yet] seen the events associated with the end of it.
It started circa 70 A.D. and will end at some point in the future. Therefore, we are in it now...
I hope you do not mind but I am going to use your post as a template to put my own thoughts forward.
We have the simple explanation given in the text itself about the Iron being strong and clay weak, but to go beyond yet and say it is Israel or it is Gods People, although it fits with the potter and clay verses in Jeremiah 18, it also runs into problems because the clay gets destroyed along with the metals. Maybe we are overthinking the clay part ?
By comparing Daniel with the Harlot carried by the ten horned beast in Revelation, I see portrayed the Western Roman Empire in its broken and divided stage, ruled by many sovereigns, consisting of the group of kingdoms which has occupied ever since the Gothic invasions of the fifth century.
The historian Machiavel, gives the following list of the nations which occupied the territory of the Western Empire at the time of the fall of Romulus Augustulus, the last emperor of Rome. The Lombard's, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Ostrogoths, the Visigoths, the Vandals, the Heruli, the Sueves, the Huns, and the Saxons - ten in all.
The following list gives the contemporary kingdoms existing in Western Europe at intervals of a hundred years, from the ninth to the nineteenth centuries. It is from The Four Prophetic Empires, by the Rev. T. R. Birks, and is introduced by the remark that a measure of uncertainty must exist as to whether some of the states should be included, as "it is sometimes doubtful whether a kingdom can claim an independent sovereignty on account of the complex and varying nature of its political relations." Where a ? follows a name, it implies that there are some elements of doubt as to whether it should be included or not.
A.D. 860.
Italy, Provence, Lorraine, East France, West France, Exarchate, Venice, Navarre, England, Scotland. Total, 10.
A.D. 950.
Germany, Burgundy, Lombardy, Exarchate, Venice, France, England, Scotland, Navarre, Leon. Total, 10.
A.D. 1050.
Germany, Exarchate, Venice, Norman Italy, France, England, Scotland, Arragon, Castile, Normandy (?), Hungary (?). Total, 9 to 11.
A.D. II50.
Germany, Naples, Venice, France, England, Scotland, Arragon, Castile, Portugal, Hungary, Lombardy (?). Total, 10, or perhaps 11.
A.D. 1250.
Germany and Naples, Venice, Lombardy, France, England, Scotland, Arragon, Castile, Portugal, Hungary. Total, 10.
A.D. 1350.
Germany, Naples, Venice, Switzerland (?), Milan (?), Tuscany (?), France, England and Scotland, Arragon, Castile, Portugal, Hungary. Total, 9 to 12.
A.D. 1453.
Austria, Naples, Venice, France, England, Scotland, Arragon, Castile, Portugal, Hungary, Switzerland (?), Savoy (?), Milan (?), Tuscany (?). Total, 11 to 14.
A.D. 1552.
Austria, Venice, France, England, Scotland, Spain, Naples, Portugal, Hungary, Switzerland (?), Lombardy (?). Total, 9 to 11.
A.D. 1648.
Austria, Venice, France, Britain (?), Spain and Naples, Portugal, Hungary, Switzerland (?), Savoy, Tuscany, Holland. Total, 8 to 11.
A.D. 1750.
Austria and Hungary, France, Savoy and Sardinia, Venice, Tuscany, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland (?), Naples (?), Britain (?), Holland. Total, 8 to 1I.
A.D. 1816.
Austria, Bavaria, Wurtemberg (?), Naples, Tuscany, Sardinia, Lombardy (?), France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Britain (?), Switzerland (?). Total, 9 to 13·
The submission for long centuries of this divided Empire of Rome to the power of the Papacy cannot be questioned or denied. Which I see as the little horn that arises amongst the ten in Daniel 7:8
At the start of the Roman Empire we have Jesus setting up the believers as living stones or the kingdom of God spiritually.
I see the stone that destroys all the other kingdoms as the Kingdom of God in its ultimate stage at the second coming when it is set up on Earth physically.
Thank you for your thoughts and I would like to respond to each one separately. Here is my response to your #1&2 comment above: (please let me know if this is helpful).
I understand why you are thinking of clay in terms of whether it is soft, weak, or easily molded. But at this point in the vision, I do not believe Daniel is yet asking us to focus on the condition of the clay. The first thing to notice is that the fourth kingdom is Rome. The iron legs and the iron feet belong to the fourth kingdom; the feet do not introduce a separate kingdom. Rome remains the iron power.
The clay, then, does not appear to be another material that helps form or govern the Roman kingdom. Instead, it is something found within the iron feet just before the Stone arrives. That becomes especially meaningful when we look at how the Old Testament uses the image of clay. God repeatedly uses clay to represent His people under His hand.
Isaiah says:
“But now, O Lord, You are our Father; we are the clay, and You our potter; and all we are the work of Your hand.”
— Isaiah 64:8
— Isaiah 64:8
Isaiah also says:
“Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou?”
— Isaiah 45:9
— Isaiah 45:9
But perhaps the clearest passage is Jeremiah 18. Shortly before Judah’s captivity, God sends Jeremiah to the potter’s house. Jeremiah watches the potter working with the clay, and when the vessel is marred, the potter reshapes it as he sees fit.
God then applies the image directly to Israel:
“O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? … Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.” — Jeremiah 18:6
That passage is especially important because God is speaking to His covenant people before captivity and showing that He has the right to shape, correct, judge, and reform them according to His purpose. With that Old Testament background, the appearance of clay within the iron feet of Rome becomes very significant. God’s covenant people were living under Roman authority, but they were not part of Rome’s imperial substance or power. Rome was the iron; Israel was the clay found within its domain.
Iron and clay can never truly bond. Israel remained religiously and nationally distinct even while politically subject to Rome. Rome would never have regarded Israel as an equal partner in the empire, nor would it have shared its imperial authority with them.
So at this time in the vision we are not necessarily concerned about the softness or hardness or how brittle, etc., the clay is in relation to the iron but that it is a completely different element meant to identify His people held captive within the Roman world.
Please let me know, or anyone reading this, if they are not convinced that God is using clay to symbolize His covenant people held captive within the 4th iron kingdom of pagan Rome... If we need to discuss further... no problem.
Wayne, I hope you do not mind me attempting to address this and I would like to try and take each one of your comments separately.
I would respectfully ask that you might read the unfortunately long narrative that I had posted in #99 earlier which I believe addresses this concern. Verse 2:34 represents the first coming of the Messiah where He will strike the feet and break apart the two elements of iron and clay. He did not come to destroy but to divide. At from this symbolic strike, the cross would indeed separate those of His people identified as the clay held within the iron kingdom who would accept Him as their Messiah. These would be identified as "pottery clay" and it would be these Jewish followers who would go out to preach the Good News within the Roman Empire after the cross. However, there would be many other people within the Jewish nation (clay) that would reject and crucify Him. They would become to be identified as the "miry or ceramic" clay because their hearts were hardened and would not accept Jesus.
They would persecute the followers of Jesus after the cross, they would continue worshipping their God just as if Jesus did not come to the earth until the destruction in 70 AD.
However, if we review the next verse in 2:35 we DO find language that specifically tells us that all 4 metals AND the clay will be destroyed but this verse does not speak to His first ---coming but some 2000 years later --- and He includes the clay within the individual metals listing because at the end of time - when He returns, they will represent all those who have continued to reject Him as their Lord and Savior.
Ok and you are certainly correct! There is NO 10 ruler coalition nation at the time of the Messiah or anytime after that fits these 10 horns that COME OUT OF THE 4th kingdom of pagan Rome at the time of the Messiah. This is exactly why EVERY INTERPRETER AND COMMENTATOR contends these 10 member nation or group or powers MUST STILL BE IN THE FUTURE - EVEN TODAY THEY EXPECT THEM TO SHOW UP.
So you are in terrific company --- there are generally only two main interpretations for the identity of these 10 powers - some have identified 10 nations around 500 AD that disagreed with the papacy and where 3 of them were literally destroyed by Rome. However, the majority of interprters believe they are still to come in the future.
But the 10 horns are first introduced in chapter 7 and we are not there yet. Sorry, great question but I hope we might still resolve or discuss the "clay" issue and the 2:34 issue before we address the 10 horns.... but I can assure you will love that discussion.
Okay, these are the last two.... Yes, the Stone is Jesus at His first coming. And once again you see things so clearly -the 10 toes cannot be Jesus or the Church. And you are correct, this is exactly why almost everyone has thrown the identity of these 10 horns into the future.
Yes, Jesus separates His people into two groups - those who would accept Him and start His church and preach the Good News to the world, and those who would reject Him. That church that He started with His sacrifice grows throughout the Roman world and as we all know, it is truly global today- meaning His church has grown into a great mountain. And when He returns He will judge all who rejected Him - and destroy everything - verse 2:35.
So, who are these 10 horns of chapter 7? You will see when we get there, but you see everything perfectly which is why you should never consider not contributing...
I want to share some more thoughts on the Little Horn of Daniel 7. When I look at Revelation 13, I see a match.
Here is my interpretation:
Here is the matching verse in Daniel:
What I am noticing is that the beast in Revelation not only has the ten horns, but he also has seven heads. Only the sixth head was around during the writing of the Book of Revelation. To me, this proves that the narrative for the Little Horn of Daniel 7 is far past the days of John.
Continuing:
Those empires fell in Daniel 11.
- Lion = Babylonian
- Bear = Medo-Persia
- Leopard = Greece
Continuing:
Now we are at the eighth head that is of the seven. I believe that the time we are living in now has yet to see this event take place. In my opinion, the eighth head is the manmade 'Image of the Beast' and a perfect fit for the 'Little Horn' of Daniel 7.
I believe this next verse is describing the Image of the Beast being given a mouth to speak:
That sounds exactly like the Little Horn of Daniel 7:
The Little Horn makes war with the Saints in Revelation:
Same as Daniel:
Again, this is at the eighth head stage and still future to us now.
What is interesting is that the False Prophet is the one who makes the seventh head, i.e., the Image of the Beast come back to life. I would like to know if this entity is in Daniel:
Again, he is the one who creates the Little Horn and gives it a mouth:
Like I said earlier, the Little Horn of Daniel 7 has a mouth and eyes "like" a man. It is an image. It comes after the seventh head.
How can all of this be in the past?
The little horn in Daniel 7 came up among the 10 horns of the fourth beast with huge iron teeth:
(Dan 7:7-8 NKJV) "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.
The little horn in Daniel 8 came up out of one of the four replacement horns that replaced the broken horn of the male goat:
(Dan 8:8-9 NKJV) Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land.
The two little horns were on different animals, and one grew up from among ten other horns, and the other grew out of one of four horns. How can they be the same little horn?
Okay, here is your closing comment, and here is my response. I hope it makes sense to you but please ask anything should it not be clear or you still may not be convinced.
I understand why the ten toes might suggest a new power made up of ten divisions. Before reaching that conclusion, however, I think it may help to step back and consider how deliberately God constructed the image. God selected four distinct metals—gold, silver, bronze, and iron. Each metal is unique, fixed, and clearly separate from the others. He then reinforced those distinctions by assigning each metal to a particular part of the man’s body:
- gold to the head,
- silver to the chest and arms,
- bronze to the belly and thighs,
- iron to the legs and feet.
There is another detail in the dream sequence that may be important. In Daniel 2:33, Nebuchadnezzar is shown the feet as being partly iron and partly clay, but the toes are not separately identified or numbered. They are naturally present within the feet, but God does not yet draw attention to them as ten individual parts. That is intentional.
Nebuchadnezzar was a Gentile king being shown the broad succession of world kingdoms. From his viewpoint, the clay within the Roman feet would simply appear as another conquered people mixed into the empire, although he most likely would not have even understood or cared why the feet had clay within the iron. Even had he understood the clay to represent Israel, there would have been no reason in the dream sequence to reveal the internal distinctions, characteristics, or spiritual condition of God’s covenant people to him. Rome itself would have viewed Israel in much the same way—as one more subject nation under imperial control.
The dream therefore gives Nebuchadnezzar the broad political picture: iron Rome with clay found within its feet. The individual features hidden within that clay are not yet the focus. Those details become important only when God later provides interpretation and then expands the same physical elements in Daniel 7. This is important because Daniel 7 will reveal what Daniel 2 leaves concealed. What appears only as feet in the dream of chapter 2 will later be shown through ten horns, and the internal developments of the fourth kingdom will be explained in far greater detail. The broad structure comes first; the identifying features are revealed later.
The clay itself is not another imperial metal. It is a completely different kind of material. That was intentional, precisely so that it would not be mistaken for a fifth world kingdom. Clay would also have been a familiar biblical symbol to God’s people. God repeatedly spoke of Israel as clay in the hands of the Potter. Jeremiah 18 is especially important:
“Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.”
So when clay appears within the iron kingdom at the very time Israel is living under Roman rule and awaiting the Messiah, we should consider to ask whether God is identifying His covenant people within that empire.
The iron and clay are mixed together, but they cannot truly bond. That fits the historical relationship between Rome and Israel. Israel existed within the Roman Empire because Rome had conquered and ruled the land, not because the two had formed one united kingdom. Rome would never have viewed Israel as an equal partner in its authority, and Israel remained religiously and nationally distinct from Rome.
This is why the four kingdoms are not the main story of Daniel. They are the prophetic framework within which God tells the larger story of His people, His city, their captivity, their restoration, and ultimately the coming of the Messiah.
Babylon destroys Jerusalem and carries the people into exile. Under the kingdoms that follow, God preserves them, returns them to the land, restores Jerusalem and the sanctuary, and prepares everything necessary for the Messiah’s arrival. By the time the prophecy reaches the early Roman period, the people are again in the land, Jerusalem is restored, the temple is functioning, and the seventy weeks are approaching their fulfillment. The Messiah therefore arrives during the fourth kingdom, exactly where the image places the Stone—at the feet of iron and clay.
Rome remained the ruling imperial power during Christ’s ministry and for centuries afterward. Within that Roman setting, the most important events in human history took place: the coming of Christ, His death and resurrection, the establishment of the new covenant, the beginning of the Church, the destruction of Jerusalem, and the spread of the gospel throughout the empire.
So the kingdoms, kings, wars, and political struggles are important, but they are not Daniel’s central story. They provide the historical structure within which God reveals His plan to restore His people and His city in preparation for the Messiah.
That is why the toes cannot be a new fifth kingdom. God appears to have gone to great lengths to give us four metals, four body divisions, and four kingdoms. The clay is introduced not as another empire, but as a different people found within the final metal kingdom at the precise time the Stone arrives. The details concealed in the feet of Daniel 2 will later become visible in the horns of Daniel 7. Once again, the four kingdoms are not what we should focus on - their function is to allow us to see when and how His people will be restored back to Jerusalem just in perfect time for the coming Messiah – this is His Story being revealed through His people as they travel back to Jerusalem.
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Well, we have yet to move out of the last two (hopefully only two) of the interpretations in chapter 2 before we move on to chapter 7 when the little horn is identified. So, to be fair, a response to your questions concerning the false prophet, the little horn in Revelation, the various symbols found in Revelation would not make any sense to you... one has to interpret Daniel before even opening the Book of Revelation... they of course will fit hand in glove but Daniel must be interpreted as studied in the manner God has presented it - chapter by chapter, take each prophetic verse as they are being presented to us. But everyone of those symbols in Revelation will agree with Daniel - but God is obviously going to use different symbols than in Daniel no different than how He uses different symbols in chapter 7 verses those He uses in chapter 2 for the exact same 4 kingdoms.
Hello David and thank you for your thoughts! That is a fair question, but I would prefer not to move into Daniel 8 before we have completed the foundation established in Daniel 2.
At the moment, I am asking us to focus on three basic questions from the text immediately before us:
1. Does the image contain four kingdoms, or does the clay introduce a fifth kingdom?
2. Does the clay represent part of Rome itself, or a separate people found within the Roman kingdom?
3. Does the Stone’s first impact in verse 34 destroy the entire image, or does it initially strike and separate the iron and clay in the feet?
Those conclusions will directly affect how we later understand the horns in chapters 7 and 8. If we move ahead now and begin interpreting the little horns before agreeing on the structure established in chapter 2, we will simply bring our existing conclusions backward into the earlier chapter.
Regarding Daniel 8:9, I do not believe the wording requires the little horn to arise from one of the four horns. The phrase “out of one of them” will refer back to the four winds, not the four notable ones. But that grammatical and structural question deserves a much fuller discussion when we reach chapter 8.
So I am not avoiding your question. I am asking that we take Daniel in order and allow each chapter to establish the foundation for the next. Once we have completed chapter 2 and then examined the fourth beast and ten horns of chapter 7, we will be in a much better position to determine whether the little horn of chapter 8 is the same power, a related power, or an entirely different one.
The earlier chapters should interpret the later ones, not the later chapters control the meaning of Daniel 2 before Daniel 2 has been settled.
In the meantime, I would welcome your thoughts on the open items we are still discussing in chapter 2 – agree or not.
By the way, I may have missed it but have you offered your thoughts on what I believe to be the two open issues within the chapter 2 discussion?
1) your thoughts on the identity of the clay,
2) your thoughts on verse 2:34 - Stone being His first coming..
3) any other open issues you might see thus far?
It seems that you may not accept the interpretation that Daniel 2:34 points to Christ’s first coming, when the Stone strikes the feet and begins the separation between the iron and the clay—and then, within the clay itself, between those who would receive Him as Messiah and those who would reject Him. That is certainly fair, but it raises an important question for me: where do you see the Messiah in Daniel 2, and what do you believe causes the divided condition described in verses 41–45?
I do not believe Daniel was given merely as a history lesson about kingdoms, rulers, and political conflicts. Those kingdoms provide the framework, but the larger purpose of the book is God’s plan of restoration and the coming of the Messiah.
I would genuinely be interested in hearing how you understand these verses. Some of the comments I recently posted in #151 to @Delvianna may also help explain why I read the passage this way.
I Believe the first coming was at the start of Iron Kingdom and the that stone represents the Kingdoms of Man being replaced by the Physical Kingdom of God at the second coming.Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
We have a divine interpretation of the vision of the Image given to Daniel (vv, 36-45)
Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
We see in verses 42-43 that the fourth kingdom is in its later stage "divided," and the attempts to reunite its broken fragments prove vain and futile. This did happen in history, 10 nations sprung up on the ruins of what was the Western Roman Empire. And all this fits in with Revelation.
I can be persuaded that the clay represents Israel but when everything fits and seems so obvious about the coming physical Kingdom of God that consumes all the kingdoms, I am afraid we will have to disagree. So I will keep on eye on the thread but I wont post anymore so you can progress with what you have planned for the rest of Daniel
Thanks for your responses, but I'm afraid this chat is going far too quickly for me. There's a ton of reading already that I just don't have the time for. If possible, can you point to 1 particular post you'd like me to comment on so I don't have to address every post response? Thanks
The Book of Daniel should not be read merely as history written in advance. The four kingdoms were real, their kings were real, and their conflicts were real. But those kingdoms are not the central message of the book. They form the historical framework through which God carries out His plan for His people.
Beginning with Babylon, God’s covenant people move through each successive kingdom according to His purpose. They are taken into captivity, preserved, returned to their land, and gradually restored to Jerusalem. God ensures that His people, His city, and His sanctuary are prepared in time for the arrival of the Messiah.
For that reason, the metals, beasts, horns, kings, and conflicts should not automatically be treated as symbols that must each be matched with another political empire or future alliance. The historical kingdoms provide the setting, but God’s work of restoration, salvation, judgment, and the coming of the Messiah provides the story.
This is especially important in Daniel 2, because chapter 2 establishes the foundation for the chapters that follow.
The clay appears within the feet of the fourth kingdom at the very time God’s covenant people are living under Roman rule and awaiting the Messiah. If the clay represents His people, then its appearance is not an accidental detail. It places Israel within the Roman world just before the arrival of the Stone.
In Daniel 2:34, the Stone strikes the feet where the iron and clay are found together. Rather than immediately assuming that this describes the complete end-time destruction of every earthly kingdom, we should first ask what happens at the Messiah’s first coming.
Christ did not destroy Rome when He came. Instead, His arrival created a separation. He separated His covenant people spiritually from the Roman world, and He divided the clay itself between those who received Him as Messiah and those who rejected Him.
That interpretation gives real purpose to the clay and to the divided condition described in verses 41–45. The division is not merely a prediction that a future political kingdom will be partly strong and partly weak. It reflects the spiritual division produced by the coming of Christ within His own covenant people and, over time, within the Roman world itself.
The final destruction of the entire image occurs when the Stone fills the earth. But the first impact of the Stone begins with the feet, at the very place where Rome and Israel are found together.
The same principle should guide us when we later reach the ten horns of Daniel 7 and the little horn that rises among them. We should not immediately assume that the ten horns must be another future ten-nation political alliance or that the little horn is merely another historical ruler to be matched with a name from secular history.
Instead, we should ask why God chose to reveal these particular symbols and what role they play in His plan of salvation.
If the horns and the little horn are treated only as political actors, we may identify possible kingdoms while missing why God included them in the prophecy.
Daniel is a prophetic and spiritual book, not simply a record of future world history. God wants the reader to see His hand guiding His people through the kingdoms, restoring them to Jerusalem, preparing them for Christ, separating them according to their response to Him, and revealing the later powers that would affect His plan of salvation.
As we complete Daniel 2, we should therefore ask a basic question before moving into later chapters: How do the clay, the Stone, the divided kingdom, the ten horns, and the little horn relate to the coming Messiah and to God’s work of restoration and salvation?
If we do not ask that question first, we may understand the history surrounding Daniel while missing the message God placed within it.
Beginning with Babylon, God’s covenant people move through each successive kingdom according to His purpose. They are taken into captivity, preserved, returned to their land, and gradually restored to Jerusalem. God ensures that His people, His city, and His sanctuary are prepared in time for the arrival of the Messiah.
For that reason, the metals, beasts, horns, kings, and conflicts should not automatically be treated as symbols that must each be matched with another political empire or future alliance. The historical kingdoms provide the setting, but God’s work of restoration, salvation, judgment, and the coming of the Messiah provides the story.
This is especially important in Daniel 2, because chapter 2 establishes the foundation for the chapters that follow.
The clay appears within the feet of the fourth kingdom at the very time God’s covenant people are living under Roman rule and awaiting the Messiah. If the clay represents His people, then its appearance is not an accidental detail. It places Israel within the Roman world just before the arrival of the Stone.
In Daniel 2:34, the Stone strikes the feet where the iron and clay are found together. Rather than immediately assuming that this describes the complete end-time destruction of every earthly kingdom, we should first ask what happens at the Messiah’s first coming.
Christ did not destroy Rome when He came. Instead, His arrival created a separation. He separated His covenant people spiritually from the Roman world, and He divided the clay itself between those who received Him as Messiah and those who rejected Him.
That interpretation gives real purpose to the clay and to the divided condition described in verses 41–45. The division is not merely a prediction that a future political kingdom will be partly strong and partly weak. It reflects the spiritual division produced by the coming of Christ within His own covenant people and, over time, within the Roman world itself.
The final destruction of the entire image occurs when the Stone fills the earth. But the first impact of the Stone begins with the feet, at the very place where Rome and Israel are found together.
The same principle should guide us when we later reach the ten horns of Daniel 7 and the little horn that rises among them. We should not immediately assume that the ten horns must be another future ten-nation political alliance or that the little horn is merely another historical ruler to be matched with a name from secular history.
Instead, we should ask why God chose to reveal these particular symbols and what role they play in His plan of salvation.
What spiritual development takes place within the fourth kingdom?
Why does a new power arise after the ten horns?
How does that power relate to God’s people, His law, His truth, His sanctuary, and the Messiah?
If the horns and the little horn are treated only as political actors, we may identify possible kingdoms while missing why God included them in the prophecy.
Daniel is a prophetic and spiritual book, not simply a record of future world history. God wants the reader to see His hand guiding His people through the kingdoms, restoring them to Jerusalem, preparing them for Christ, separating them according to their response to Him, and revealing the later powers that would affect His plan of salvation.
As we complete Daniel 2, we should therefore ask a basic question before moving into later chapters: How do the clay, the Stone, the divided kingdom, the ten horns, and the little horn relate to the coming Messiah and to God’s work of restoration and salvation?
If we do not ask that question first, we may understand the history surrounding Daniel while missing the message God placed within it.
Thank you very much for your thoughts! I would ask that you might continue to offer your thoughts as we move onto chapter 7. Thanks.
I Believe the first coming was at the start of Iron Kingdom and the that stone represents the Kingdoms of Man being replaced by the Physical Kingdom of God at the second coming.
Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
We have a divine interpretation of the vision of the Image given to Daniel (vv, 36-45)
Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
We see in verses 42-43 that the fourth kingdom is in its later stage "divided," and the attempts to reunite its broken fragments prove vain and futile. This did happen in history, 10 nations sprung up on the ruins of what was the Western Roman Empire. And all this fits in with Revelation.
I can be persuaded that the clay represents Israel but when everything fits and seems so obvious about the coming physical Kingdom of God that consumes all the kingdoms, I am afraid we will have to disagree. So I will keep on eye on the thread but I wont post anymore so you can progress with what you have planned for the rest of Daniel
I apologize for that... there is a ton that has gone back and forth and you can see just how complicated Daniel is and it can be so frustrating to try and impart on the comments that surround almost every interpretation - especially when they will deviate so dramatically from "today's accepted interpretations."Thanks for your responses, but I'm afraid this chat is going far too quickly for me. There's a ton of reading already that I just don't have the time for. If possible, can you point to 1 particular post you'd like me to comment on so I don't have to address every post response? Thanks
Here is how I view (maybe) how you are seeing things at this time:
I think you might agree there are only 4 metal kingdoms within God's plan,
The clay is the only non-metalic element within chapter 2 and hopefuly, you might see they symbolize His people when they are back in Jerusalem awaiting His first coming,
And I think the only other open issue may be that you find that His first coming as found in 2:34 is meant to establish His church through the cross and also to separate those of His people who would accept Him as their Messiah - they, of course would be His Apostles, Pau, and the many followers that would be found at Pentecost. They represent the "Pottery clay" who will preach the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus after the cross.