Does Hebrews 10 say if we willfully sin after being saved there is no more forgiveness?
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Why would you assume one's capability equated to their sincerity? More than half of protestant christians (About 60%) do not feel secure in their ability to read and extrapolate information from the bible without help. Only about 14% of catholics even read their bibles.
This is here and now in modern times when most of us have access to study tools. What of everyone else from now back who did not have access to the resources the internet provides? was their common readings also to be considered lackadaisical?
Which is exactly what I lead to in the op when I contrasted the two verses.
I took a common reading of hebrews 10 and answered it with a common reading of romans 7. The point you where making about romans 7 where why I asked that the two verses be reconciled.
The body can want to be of God, but is and will ever be a slave to sin. A Slave's will is always subject to the will of the Master He serves. Meaning this body is destined to die for those sin which it has already committed. Which is why we are to be born again, or to separate our Spiritual side from the "old man of the flesh." we do this when we repent and turn from our sin and embrace the offer of atonement Christ offers. So when the body dies the soul does not 'die' with it.
Ok, so I should qualify my statement to say, "only about 14% of catholics are lackadaisical"?
The redemption of the body occurs at the resurrection so, at the least, God doesn't totally abandon it to decay. But whether the soul is subject to decay remains to be arguable considering the assertion of Acts 13:34 and Romans 8:21.
I do not think you understand the statistic. it's saying only 14% of catholics even attempt to read their bibles. This means 86% don't even make the effort. Of that 14%. while there isn't any specific data concerning bible literacy on catholics it is known that of those tested, protestants have a far greater working knowledge of the bible/scripture.
So if anything that 14% of catholics represent the most biblically knowledgeable catholics, even though they could potentially fall behind the majority of protestant bible readers, who they themselves have a very basic understanding of the bible. (Stuck with plain reading straight out of the bible.)
We will be given new/transformed bodies:
phi 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
2 cor 5:
New Bodies
5 For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2;We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.6So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him. 10For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.
I'm sorry. I should have been clearer.
You said: "Born-again" means indwelt by the HS which occurs when sinners repent.
I very much agree with your statement, but I think we should flesh it out a bit. Paul also mentions the fact that the Ephesians were sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believed. Ephesians 1:13 Is Paul saying that the HS responded to Ephesian belief, or does Paul believe that the HS was somehow responsible for their belief?
Paul’s statement in Ephesians 1:13—“having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit”—does not settle the question of whether the Spirit responds to human belief or whether the Spirit is responsible for producing that belief. What it does show is that Paul sees belief and sealing as intimately connected events in God’s saving work. Peter adds another layer: he ties the new birth to God’s preserving power, saying believers are “kept by the power of God through faith.” That implies a causal relationship between God and our ongoing ability to believe, but Peter never explicitly says that God causes the initial act of faith. The New Testament writers consistently affirm two truths at once: the Spirit is essential for awakening, sustaining, and sealing faith, and yet they do not describe faith as something mechanically imposed on a person. Their emphasis is that the Spirit’s work surrounds, empowers, and secures belief, not that it overrides human agency. This allows us to say that the Spirit is deeply involved in the believer’s coming to faith without claiming more than the text itself provides.
Do you have any comments, corrections, or objections?
My comment is that I boil down what you said with the statement "God initiates; sinners may cooperate--or not."
Also, the seal signifies salvation, not abrogation of MFW/IF/faith (non-meritorious per John 6:29).
Sorry, I often show symptoms of dyslexia.
How do we address the varying degrees of comprehension of the plain reading, or the possible influences affecting it. I'm convinced it isn't humanly possible.
The new bodies are not made by human hands, so it's inconclusive this is speaking, solely, of the soul.
although all will be resurrected, not all will be resurrected to eternal life.
Persevering is the mark of a genuine believer. I already covered Hebrews 10:26. Now if the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation and became unsanctified, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) So, in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. So, to go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here.
*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled underfoot the Son of God and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't always necessarily refer to salvation.
Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.
Strong's Greek: 37. ἁγιάζω (hagiazó) -- to make holy, consecrate, sanctify (biblehub.com)
In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses the term "sanctified" to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "set apart" by their believing spouse (and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So, the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved in every case, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with Scripture.
In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to "nominal" Christians (make believers) and not saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
So, after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in this Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with these believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received and trampling underfoot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with these Hebrew Christians was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.
Descriptive of genuine believers.
By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected - bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect. Cause of being in Christ (FAITH) effect of being in Christ (FRUIT).
For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (verse 8). For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins (verse 9). What is the object of the forgetting? Is this forgetting temporary because this believer had fallen into error or does this lack of fruit exist because this person’s "cleansing" was merely an external reformation that did not come from a truly changed heart?
The genuineness of their profession is demonstrated as believers express these virtues. These fruits confirm their divine source. 10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. *Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
In regard to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.
Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."
Corruption is deeper than pollutions on the outside. It is decay on the inside.
Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example.
CONTINUED..
Remaining in what we have heard from the beginning confirms that faith was firmly rooted and established and our status as children of God, which results in remaining in the Son and the Father.
In regard to Jude 1:21, keep yourselves in the love of God is supplemented with three participles of means in the original, which answers the question, "How does one keep himself in the love of God?" By building yourselves up in your most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. The word "keep" means to attend to carefully, take care of, guard. It does not mean keep yourself saved, as you imply. Jude starts off in verse 1 with - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ: In Psalm 37:28, we read - For the Lord loves justice, and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
If Revelation 2:10 teaches that we must be "faithful enough" (in addition) to placing our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9) then just "how faithful" would you have to be? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "faithful enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? That is vague and could include any number of good works, which results in "works righteousness." That verse is an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. Jesus is not telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" (in addition) to having faith in Him for salvation that they will not receive eternal life. That would be salvation by works! Jesus is telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there!
In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY (genuine) BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9). Make believers/unbelievers are not saved, do not overcome and are unfaithful unto death.
The Bible mentions multiple crowns in scripture. The imperishable crown (1 Corinthians 9:24-25); the crown of rejoicing (1 Thessalonians 2:19); the crown of righteousness (2 Timothy 4:8); the crown of glory (1 Peter 5:4); the crown of life (Revelation 2:10). On the head of Jesus are many crowns. (Revelation 19:12)
So do I, which is why I made the effort to spell everything out.
I do not think it is necessary to address all of the different ways people can interpret this passage. As again in Romans 7 lies the answer to this problem. The common reading of this passage is not an issue if one reconciles it with a common reading of romans 7.
verse 3 disagrees:
3For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. then verse four specifically says we will get heavenly bodies, and the through out the rest of the passage Paul specifically makes reference to new bodies in contrast to these bodies that we wear like cloths.
In my mind, I was addressing the underlying suggestion that we will temporarily be spirits without bodies, as if the mere memory in God's mind is not actually existing unless it is contained within some other faculty. But I do understand that you couldn't have known that was what I was thinking let alone the extent my thought parameters.
Hopefully, sooner than later, I'll learn that lesson in my attempts to participate in communication.
The warning concerns severe temporal judgment.26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 10 - English Standard Version
Christ's Sacrifice Once for All - For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be...www.biblegateway.com
Same as the title.. If this is how you read it, how do you reconcile what Paul describes as his on going struggle with sin in romans 7?
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 7 - English Standard Version
Released from the Law - Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage...
No. Hebrews 10 does not teach that whenever a saved Christian knowingly commits a sin, God withdraws forgiveness or cancels eternal life. That interpretation isolates verse 26 from its Jewish, sacrificial, and literary context.
Arnold Fruchtenbaum’s treatment is far more precise. The “willful sin” is not an ordinary act of disobedience committed knowingly by a believer. It is the deliberate apostasy being contemplated by certain Jewish believers: publicly abandoning Messiah and returning to Judaism and the Levitical sacrificial system in order to escape persecution.
Hebrews 10 begins by contrasting two sacrificial systems. The sacrifices of the Mosaic Law were repeatedly offered, but they could never permanently remove sin. Messiah, however, offered Himself once for all. By that single offering, He provided complete and final atonement:
The text does not say that believers are perfected only until they knowingly sin. It says they are perfected forever by Christ’s one offering.
Hebrews 10:18 then says:
Therefore, when verse 26 says, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,” it does not mean that Christ’s sacrifice has stopped being effective. It means that there is no other sacrifice available besides Christ’s. If someone repudiates Messiah and returns to animal sacrifices, those sacrifices cannot provide an alternative means of atonement.
The commonly mistaken interpretation effectively reads verse 26 this way:
That cannot be the meaning. Nearly every sin committed by a believer contains some degree of knowledge or choice. David, Peter, and the Corinthians all committed serious and conscious sins. If every intentional sin permanently removed forgiveness, no Christian could remain saved.
The nature of the “willful sin” is clarified by Hebrews 10:29. It involves:
- treading underfoot the Son of God;
- treating the blood of the covenant as common or unclean;
- insulting the Spirit of grace.
The original Jewish readers were under pressure to abandon their public identification with Yeshua and return to the synagogue, Temple, priesthood, and animal sacrifices. Hebrews repeatedly demonstrates that Messiah, His priesthood, His covenant, and His sacrifice are superior and final. Returning to the former system would amount to rejecting the reality and retreating to the shadow.
Thus, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins” means:
The Levitical system could never replace the Lamb of God. Its sacrifices pointed forward to Him. After Messiah completed the work, returning to animal sacrifices could offer no protection, cleansing, or spiritual remedy.
Fruchtenbaum also places the warning within the historical setting preceding the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70. Jewish believers were being warned not to return to the apostate national system that had rejected Messiah. Doing so would place them within the sphere of the severe temporal judgment about to fall upon that generation.
This explains the terrifying language:
Notice that the text says His people. God can judge His own people severely without reversing their regeneration. Scripture distinguishes eternal condemnation from divine discipline, temporal judgment, premature physical death, loss of reward, and loss of usefulness.
The wilderness generation provides the controlling analogy throughout Hebrews. The Israelites were redeemed from Egypt and belonged to God’s covenant people, yet because of unbelief and rebellion they died in the wilderness and failed to enter the promised rest. Their judgment was severe and physical, but their deliverance from Egypt was not somehow reversed.
Likewise, a true believer may incur devastating divine discipline without becoming eternally unsaved.
Hebrews 10 itself repeatedly confirms the believer’s secure standing:
- believers are sanctified through Christ’s once-for-all offering;
- Messiah offered one sacrifice for sins forever;
- God remembers their sins no more;
- no additional offering is needed;
- their hearts have been cleansed;
- they are perfected forever by one offering.
Hebrews 10:29 even refers to the person as having been “sanctified” by the blood of the covenant. Fruchtenbaum does not need to reduce such a person to a false professor. The warning can be addressed to genuine believers because genuine believers can commit serious apostasy, suffer severe discipline, and lose blessings and rewards.
But apostasy cannot undo Christ’s death, reverse regeneration, remove the Spirit’s seal, or transform eternal life into temporary life.
The conclusion of the chapter is also decisive:
The author does not conclude that his readers have lost salvation because they knowingly sinned. He exhorts them to endure and expresses confidence that they belong to the believing company.
The confused interpretation says:
The contextual interpretation says:
Hebrews 10 is therefore not a denial of eternal security. It is a severe warning against apostasy and contempt for Messiah’s finished work.
The chapter teaches two truths simultaneously:
Messiah’s one sacrifice eternally perfects the believer.
A believer who defiantly repudiates Messiah may suffer fearsome temporal judgment and loss.
Confusing divine discipline with eternal condemnation does violence to the chapter’s central argument: the final, sufficient, once-for-all, and eternally effective sacrifice of Messiah.
No. One must understand these passages thru the lens of their.......Jewishness.
The warning concerns severe temporal judgment
Fruchtenbaum understands Hebrews as written in the shadow of the approaching national judgment that culminated in A.D. 70, when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed. Jewish believers were being warned not to retreat into the apostate national system that had rejected Messiah. Returning to that system would not save them from persecution; it would place them within the sphere about to experience divine judgment. His broader treatment of Hebrews connects its warnings with the first-century Jewish generation and the coming destruction of Jerusalem.
Persevering becomes THE sign of a genuine believer only as he/she dies. Until then, reflecting the qualities/virtues/varieties of divine love is the normative sign (Matt. 22:37-40, Rom. 5:5, 1Cor. 13, etc.)
Heb. 10:10 assumes the believer perseveres, which is the main point of the passage, so no contradiction with v. 14.
1Cor. 7:14 seems to say unbelieving spouses are saved/made holy because their spouse believes, which is problematic.
Not sure what is the point regarding 2Peter.
TBC
No, it is not talking temporal judgment. The passage says that there is "no more sacrifice for sins" for these people. Christ's sacrifice does not spare believers from "temporal" judgments. Many believers face the various temporal judgments that come upon the nations of this world. Christ's sacrifice was to save us from eternal judgment.
No, it is not talking temporal judgment. The passage says that there is "no more sacrifice for sins" for these people. Christ's sacrifice does not spare believers from "temporal" judgments. Many true believers have endured the various temporal judgments that have come upon the nations of this world. Christ's sacrifice does not exempt us from those. His sacrifice was to save us from eternal judgment. Nobody can enter heaven without a sacrifice for their sins so if they don't have a sacrifice they aren't saved.
****Jewish*** believers. Still living in Jerusalem and now in imminent danger from the coming 70AD destruction.
Yea..... Fruchtenbaum is right. No doubt about it.
You would need to be a Messianic Jewish scholar to get a read on this chapter. Chapter 6 too.
The Reformers and Presbyterians and their crew? Of course they do not rightly comprehend these passages. Tragic yes but not unexpected.
Nah, genuine faith can be lost based on Hebrews 10:29 "How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
These people were sanctified by the blood of the covenant, does not get more saved than that.
The only additional comment this prompts me to make is with reference to Jude 1:21.
Keeping yourself in the love of God is another way of saying remain faithful, and there is no qualitative difference
between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that keeps accepting God’s working grace
while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each
additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
Everyone who has become part of the Church is sanctified in some sense even if they are not truly regenerate. The word simply means "set apart". In 1 Cor 7, Paul says that the unbelieving spouses of believers are sanctified:
"For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy" (1 Cor 7:14)
Obviously such people are not saved. They are sanctified in that they have come under the influence of God's Spirit by their connection to the Church (or in the case of 1 Cor 7 to a believing spouse). All believers are sanctified but not all sanctified people are believers.