The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8

[WayneNSO]

I love to read. I read fast. But I personally don't think I read fast. It's just normal to me.

Just in case it was not clear in the post - I see the succession of Popes as Pauls Man of Sin - or Ant-Christ But I think you might of got that from the post

 

[WayneNSO]

A mere created being injected that in. I want only what the Bible says, so I reject that one. I think God hasn't revealed that one yet, but will reveal it when it's time.

Yes but he gave the number and whole lots of symbols and clues to work it out

 

[WayneNSO]

A mere created being injected that in. I want only what the Bible says, so I reject that one. I think God hasn't revealed that one yet, but will reveal it when it's time.

Countless Christians including Roman Catholics have come to the same conclusion throughout the centuries - it is the only thing the Reformers agreed upon

 

[WayneNSO]

Irenaeus never saved anyone

Seriously? :O That's shocking I never knew that lol

 

[JustThinking]

I believe in dual fulfillment. So the prophecy has partially come to pass in 70AD, but will have it's complete fulfillment in the great tribulation. For me, since it has already been partially fulfilled, I'm concentrating my focus on its more complete fulfillment in the future.

What is your take about the mark of the beast? How did it happen in 70AD? And you don't believe it will have a complete fulfillment in the great tribulation? What if you live through the great tribulation?

Well, I have a pretty decent interpretation for the mark of the beast but to be candid, I am interested in discussing the little horn at this time. At in order to identify him it is necessary to understand what chapter 2 is telling us.... chapter 7 expands greatly what has taken place in the 4th kingdom in chapter 2.... so, there really is no sense of moving onto 7 until then. Thanks.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Yes but he gave the number and whole lots of symbols and clues to work it out

I'm sure he means well, but what does the Bible say? This is prophecy yet to be fulfilled in the great tribulation of the last days.

Countless Christians including Roman Catholics have come to the same conclusion throughout the centuries - it is the only thing the Reformers agreed upon

I don't rely on what other people say whether Roman Catholics or Reformers or any other group, so it avoids the need to take sides. I think God is all you need to understand and live what the Bible says. But anyway, the Bible seems to take it as literal.

The world events are also pointing to it as literal. This world is moving toward converting monetary systems to digital and lots of places won't take cash anymore (like airports around the world).

If it is literally physical, what will your stance be? Take it or not?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Just in case it was not clear in the post - I see the succession of Popes as Pauls Man of Sin - or Ant-Christ But I think you might of got that from the post

I see the last pope of the RC as the false prophet and the antichrist as a politician who rises from obscurity.

But the pope will do as much harm because he will be the one to introduce the mark of the beast. The reason why it's his job is because this is about worship and who people should entrust themselves to. He's going to promote the antichrist as the savior and that worshipping him will allow you to provide for yourselves.

A lot of professing Christians don't really believe in God's miracles and if caught in the great tribulation, will not believe God will provide for them without money to pay for food or bills. There's also the issue when that doesn't work, the antichrist will come down hard on people who still refuse the mark and start having them beheaded. So a great many will take the mark.

But I want people to think about this possibility beforehand and not ignore it. We already have had the covid vaccine used against people people who won't take it - they lost their jobs. So it can happen in our lifetime with the mark of the beast. What will you choose to do?

 

[HeIsHere]

As promised And I know I will get attacked by all sides - futurists Preterist and whatever other ISTs they are lol

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

When Revelation 14:! and Revelation 22:4 says all those who believe in Jesus will have the Father's name written in their foreheads it is obviously symbolic - we do not go around with tattoos of the Fathers name or Jesus on our foreheads. Maybe we are all closet Christians worried that people will see <----sarcasm

So when it comes to Revelation 13:16 "to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads" It is not a literal mark, it is symbolic. The forehead is the mind of the man, it is where we conceive our doctrine. The hand is the work we do, our actions.


Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

There were many Papal decrees forbidding trading with those who would pledge allegiance to the Pope. For example a cannon of the 3rd Lateran Council, in 1178 AD, under Pope Alexander 111, commanded that no man should entertain or cherish them in his house or land or exercise traffic with them.

The same pope passed a law at the Synod of Tours, that no man should presume to receive or assist the heretics, no not so much as to exercise commerce with them in selling and buying.

Pope Martin V's Bull, at the Council of Constance (1414 to 1418), decreed that "they permit not the heretics to have houses in their districts, or carry on commerce, to enjoy the comforts of humanity with Christians."

By Christians he meant Roman Catholics by the way.


Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

As for the number Six hundred threescore and six (666), LATEINOS (Λατεῖνος) is the Greek word for "the Latin One" and was first suggested by Irenaeus (130 - 202 AD) as the number of the beast.

L – λ – 30
a – α – 1
t – τ – 300
e – ε – 5
i – ι – 10
n – ν – 50
o – ο – 70
s – ς – 200

= 666

In Greek
LATEINOS - Greek for - The Latin One = 666
HE LATINA BASILWIA - Greek for - The Latin Kingdom = 666
ITALIKA EKKLESIA - Greek for - The Latin Church = 666
APOSTATES - Greek for - The Apostacy = 666

In Hebrew:
ROMIITH - The Roman Kingdom = 666
ROMITI - The Roman Man = 666

In Latin:
VICARIUS FILII DEI - Vicar of the Son of God = 666 (VICARIUS FILII DEI is one of the main titles of the Pope)
DUX CLERI - Captain of the Clergy = 666 (the signature of the Pope)
LUDOVICUS - The Vicar of the Court = 666

Wow, this is same obscure theory by a former member(s)

So interesting it should re-appear.

 

[HeIsHere]

Well, I have a pretty decent interpretation for the mark of the beast but to be candid, I am interested in discussing the little horn at this time. At in order to identify him it is necessary to understand what chapter 2 is telling us.... chapter 7 expands greatly what has taken place in the 4th kingdom in chapter 2.... so, there really is no sense of moving onto 7 until then. Thanks.

The bible never speaks of "great tribulation" the way futurist depict it.

 

[JustThinking]

I would have to go back and read, this is the type of thread where posts build upon each other and if one does not stay on top of it then it can be hard to meaningfully contribute.

It does seem people prefer to talk about those purposely sensationalized topics like the "mark of the beast" which is only a small part of the narrative concerning the ending of the Mosaic Age

If I can grab some time latter I will see if I can catch up on this thread.

I think you have identified an important problem. Many people are naturally drawn to the more sensational subjects in prophecy, but that often encourages speculation before the foundational verses have been carefully understood. The more closely I study Daniel, the more impressed I am by how orderly, logical, and consistent its prophetic structure is. We cannot begin interpreting the message somewhere in the middle and expect to understand what follows.

Most interpreters assume that Daniel 2:34 and 2:35 describe the same end-time event. This is largely because traditional commentators have taught it that way and because the two verses appear beside one another. Verse 35 certainly describes the final destruction of all earthly kingdoms. But proximity alone does not prove that verse 34 describes the same moment.

Scripture repeatedly presents two very different appearances of the Messiah. He comes first as the suffering Servant, bringing salvation and division according to how people respond to Him. He later returns as King and Judge. Daniel 2:34–35 may be presenting those two appearances in summary form: the Stone first strikes the feet, and later the entire image is destroyed.

For the moment, we can set aside the first three kingdoms because the decisive events occur during the fourth kingdom—the kingdom in power when the Messiah arrives and fulfills His redemptive mission.

If verse 2:34 represents Christ’s first coming, then verses 2:40–45 explain the consequences of that impact within the fourth kingdom. The kingdom becomes divided, iron and clay remain together without bonding, and important changes begin to unfold within the Roman world and among God’s covenant people.

But if verse 2:34 is only the final destruction at the end of time, what causes the developments described in verses 40–45? Why does God devote so much attention to the divided condition of the fourth kingdom if the entire image has already been destroyed?

This question becomes even more important when we reach Daniel 7.

What causes the ten divisions symbolized by the toes to appear later as ten horns or ruling powers?

​

Why does God change the symbol from toes to horns?​

​

Why does the little horn arise from the fourth kingdom after the ten?​

​

Why are the ten horns and the little horn already present before the fourth beast is finally destroyed in Daniel 7:11?​

These developments do not appear without a cause, and should they disagree with this approach, I would respectfully ask anyone to answer the above questions should their interpretation that 2:34 is not His first coming and the clay is not His people. Daniel’s prophecies move forward through action and consequence. The events surrounding the Messiah’s first coming—the cross, the division within Israel, the spread of the gospel, and the transformation of the Roman world—provide the cause for the changes later revealed in chapter 7 and beyond.

Unfortunately, many readers feel that identifying Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome is enough to understand Daniel 2. But the four kingdoms are only the framework. The deeper message is found in what God reveals within the fourth kingdom, especially through the clay, the Stone, the divided kingdom, and the events that prepare us to understand the later chapters.

If we do not carefully unpack verses 2:40–45, and we do not interpret 2:34 and the identity of the clay, it is not possible to understand chapters 7 -12. We may recognize the kingdoms while missing the prophetic foundation upon which the remainder of Daniel is built.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I think you have identified an important problem. Many people are naturally drawn to the more sensational subjects in prophecy, but that often encourages speculation before the foundational verses have been carefully understood. The more closely I study Daniel, the more impressed I am by how orderly, logical, and consistent its prophetic structure is. We cannot begin interpreting the message somewhere in the middle and expect to understand what follows.

Most interpreters assume that Daniel 2:34 and 2:35 describe the same end-time event. This is largely because traditional commentators have taught it that way and because the two verses appear beside one another. Verse 35 certainly describes the final destruction of all earthly kingdoms. But proximity alone does not prove that verse 34 describes the same moment.

Scripture repeatedly presents two very different appearances of the Messiah. He comes first as the suffering Servant, bringing salvation and division according to how people respond to Him. He later returns as King and Judge. Daniel 2:34–35 may be presenting those two appearances in summary form: the Stone first strikes the feet, and later the entire image is destroyed.

For the moment, we can set aside the first three kingdoms because the decisive events occur during the fourth kingdom—the kingdom in power when the Messiah arrives and fulfills His redemptive mission.

If verse 2:34 represents Christ’s first coming, then verses 2:40–45 explain the consequences of that impact within the fourth kingdom. The kingdom becomes divided, iron and clay remain together without bonding, and important changes begin to unfold within the Roman world and among God’s covenant people.

But if verse 2:34 is only the final destruction at the end of time, what causes the developments described in verses 40–45? Why does God devote so much attention to the divided condition of the fourth kingdom if the entire image has already been destroyed?

This question becomes even more important when we reach Daniel 7.

What causes the ten divisions symbolized by the toes to appear later as ten horns or ruling powers?

​

Why does God change the symbol from toes to horns?​

​

Why does the little horn arise from the fourth kingdom after the ten?​

​

Why are the ten horns and the little horn already present before the fourth beast is finally destroyed in Daniel 7:11?​

These developments do not appear without a cause, and should they disagree with this approach, I would respectfully ask anyone to answer the above questions should their interpretation that 2:34 is not His first coming and the clay is not His people. Daniel’s prophecies move forward through action and consequence. The events surrounding the Messiah’s first coming—the cross, the division within Israel, the spread of the gospel, and the transformation of the Roman world—provide the cause for the changes later revealed in chapter 7 and beyond.

Unfortunately, many readers feel that identifying Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome is enough to understand Daniel 2. But the four kingdoms are only the framework. The deeper message is found in what God reveals within the fourth kingdom, especially through the clay, the Stone, the divided kingdom, and the events that prepare us to understand the later chapters.

If we do not carefully unpack verses 2:40–45, and we do not interpret 2:34 and the identity of the clay, it is not possible to understand chapters 7 -12. We may recognize the kingdoms while missing the prophetic foundation upon which the remainder of Daniel is built.

But you won't acknowledge that it will happen again in the future and not prepare your faith to withstand it if it's in our lifetime? That's worse.

 

[HeIsHere]

I think you have identified an important problem. Many people are naturally drawn to the more sensational subjects in prophecy, but that often encourages speculation before the foundational verses have been carefully understood. The more closely I study Daniel, the more impressed I am by how orderly, logical, and consistent its prophetic structure is. We cannot begin interpreting the message somewhere in the middle and expect to understand what follows.

Most interpreters assume that Daniel 2:34 and 2:35 describe the same end-time event. This is largely because traditional commentators have taught it that way and because the two verses appear beside one another. Verse 35 certainly describes the final destruction of all earthly kingdoms. But proximity alone does not prove that verse 34 describes the same moment.

Scripture repeatedly presents two very different appearances of the Messiah. He comes first as the suffering Servant, bringing salvation and division according to how people respond to Him. He later returns as King and Judge. Daniel 2:34–35 may be presenting those two appearances in summary form: the Stone first strikes the feet, and later the entire image is destroyed.

For the moment, we can set aside the first three kingdoms because the decisive events occur during the fourth kingdom—the kingdom in power when the Messiah arrives and fulfills His redemptive mission.

If verse 2:34 represents Christ’s first coming, then verses 2:40–45 explain the consequences of that impact within the fourth kingdom. The kingdom becomes divided, iron and clay remain together without bonding, and important changes begin to unfold within the Roman world and among God’s covenant people.

But if verse 2:34 is only the final destruction at the end of time, what causes the developments described in verses 40–45? Why does God devote so much attention to the divided condition of the fourth kingdom if the entire image has already been destroyed?

This question becomes even more important when we reach Daniel 7.

What causes the ten divisions symbolized by the toes to appear later as ten horns or ruling powers?

​

Why does God change the symbol from toes to horns?​

​

Why does the little horn arise from the fourth kingdom after the ten?​

​

Why are the ten horns and the little horn already present before the fourth beast is finally destroyed in Daniel 7:11?​

These developments do not appear without a cause, and should they disagree with this approach, I would respectfully ask anyone to answer the above questions should their interpretation that 2:34 is not His first coming and the clay is not His people. Daniel’s prophecies move forward through action and consequence. The events surrounding the Messiah’s first coming—the cross, the division within Israel, the spread of the gospel, and the transformation of the Roman world—provide the cause for the changes later revealed in chapter 7 and beyond.

Unfortunately, many readers feel that identifying Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome is enough to understand Daniel 2. But the four kingdoms are only the framework. The deeper message is found in what God reveals within the fourth kingdom, especially through the clay, the Stone, the divided kingdom, and the events that prepare us to understand the later chapters.

If we do not carefully unpack verses 2:40–45, and we do not interpret 2:34 and the identity of the clay, it is not possible to understand chapters 7 -12. We may recognize the kingdoms while missing the prophetic foundation upon which the remainder of Daniel is built.

Good point for sure, thoughtful, thorough study should help guard against rampant speculation which is so contrary to how God told us to handle His Holy Word.

 

[JustThinking]

As promised And I know I will get attacked by all sides - futurists Preterist and whatever other ISTs they are lol

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

When Revelation 14:! and Revelation 22:4 says all those who believe in Jesus will have the Father's name written in their foreheads it is obviously symbolic - we do not go around with tattoos of the Fathers name or Jesus on our foreheads. Maybe we are all closet Christians worried that people will see <----sarcasm

So when it comes to Revelation 13:16 "to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads" It is not a literal mark, it is symbolic. The forehead is the mind of the man, it is where we conceive our doctrine. The hand is the work we do, our actions.


Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

There were many Papal decrees forbidding trading with those who would pledge allegiance to the Pope. For example a cannon of the 3rd Lateran Council, in 1178 AD, under Pope Alexander 111, commanded that no man should entertain or cherish them in his house or land or exercise traffic with them.

The same pope passed a law at the Synod of Tours, that no man should presume to receive or assist the heretics, no not so much as to exercise commerce with them in selling and buying.

Pope Martin V's Bull, at the Council of Constance (1414 to 1418), decreed that "they permit not the heretics to have houses in their districts, or carry on commerce, to enjoy the comforts of humanity with Christians."

By Christians he meant Roman Catholics by the way.


Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

As for the number Six hundred threescore and six (666), LATEINOS (Λατεῖνος) is the Greek word for "the Latin One" and was first suggested by Irenaeus (130 - 202 AD) as the number of the beast.

L – λ – 30
a – a – 1
t – t – 300
e – e – 5
i – i – 10
n – n – 50
o – o – 70
s – s – 200

= 666

In Greek
LATEINOS - Greek for - The Latin One = 666
HE LATINA BASILWIA - Greek for - The Latin Kingdom = 666
ITALIKA EKKLESIA - Greek for - The Latin Church = 666
APOSTATES - Greek for - The Apostacy = 666

In Hebrew:
ROMIITH - The Roman Kingdom = 666
ROMITI - The Roman Man = 666

In Latin:
VICARIUS FILII DEI - Vicar of the Son of God = 666 (VICARIUS FILII DEI is one of the main titles of the Pope)
DUX CLERI - Captain of the Clergy = 666 (the signature of the Pope)
LUDOVICUS - The Vicar of the Court = 666

There is so much to like here. Your understanding that the mark of the beast is perfect - (13:16) symbolically meaning the hand and the head representing our thoughts and actions. So, if we honor and obey God's laws and put them into action during our daily life, we will not fall under the mark of the beast - because to do the opposite must equal his "mark." And although Revelation can be very cryptic, we can pull out from its writings those things that are imposed or asked of us by the little horn / beast that describe how we would come under his rule. And you are right, God is not interested in tattoos or chips. etc., He is warning us to be aware of the two paths in front of us: Salvation through the Lamb or destruction through the beast. Who are we going to follow? His mark or the mark (ways, beliefs and practices of the little horn / beast). But in order to understand Revelation, one MUST understand Daniel and to understand Daniel, one MUST understand chapter 2. Really!

 

[dkontner]

Ecclesiastes 1​

9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

 

[JustThinking]

But you won't acknowledge that it will happen again in the future and not prepare your faith to withstand it if it's in our lifetime? That's worse.

Thanks for your response but i really am not sure I understand your comment. I think you believe there might be two separate events here and perhaps I am not discussing the later one but I do not understand .... Please tell me what you mean:

1) what event did take place in the past, that,

2) will repeat again in the future? Thanks so much. I hope to better understand how you are interpreting parts of Daniel...

 

[cv5]

There is no question the "mark of the beast" is a very interesting topic and there are no shortage of theories or interpretations out there..... And that would indeed be a nice thread to start and get those opinions.

But if you folks do not mind, it seems this particular thread was "alive" with many interesting thoughts and comments that were indeed focused on the chapter 2 "issues" which are critical to try and resolve before we can move on to chapter 7 and the identity of the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8.

I do not know if everyone has lost interest but, if you do not mind, can you folks tell me your thoughts on why this thread has lost momentum or interest? And just a reminder, I believe there are the two open issues - identity of the clay and whether folks have been given enough support / information on if the Stone represents the first coming of the Messiah.

Thanks for your consideration and I look forward to your response...either way.

What people dismiss is that the "end of the age" (Church age) has already passed by the time of the rise of the beast.

They also dismiss the fact that the beast is associated with social phenomenon that is unprecedented in world history.

Oh and BTW, Antiochus IV Epiphanes was Greek by culture, education, and political dominion, though he was ethnically Seleucid, which means his royal lineage was of Macedonian-Greek descent.

He ain't the 1st seal, beast, only a foreshadowing and only a PARTIAL type, as the DOTL (yes, Christ TAKING the scroll is the invitation of the DOTL) beast is associated with Iron/ROME. Not Greece.

 

[JustThinking]

I want you to go past the Daniel 2 part because I am interested in the rest even though I disagree about the stone part - I do not have to agree fully to be interested

I respectfully disagree. The events found in the rest of Daniel cannot be interpreted unless chapter 2 is accurately interpreted. And of course, since chapter 7 is the sister chapter to chapter 2, it would not be possible to understand 7 without identifying the events and actors found in chapter 2 - and I don't believe anyone has interpreted 41-45 at this time. And to be candid, not many have even tried due to their complexity. And, if they were to ask the questions about how and why the events and actors came to be in chapter 7, they would have had to unpack 41-45 and 2:34 --- everything is built off of the earlier prophecies.

Cuonsequently, we were to move quickly to chapter 7 and I offered my interpretations of the little horn, the 10 horns, the timing of both, and so much more, I guarantee the first thing out of your mouth would be - absolutely not - I disagree, makes no sense, impossible... on ad on, and that would be where the discussion would end because those interpretations would lead us directly into 8, 9 and 11 seemlessly. Why can I say that with convinction? Because that is exactly what I am hearing from you at this movement in the most important chapter in Daniel - you disagree and thus lets move on.

So, am merely asking you to accept my interpretations on the clay and 2:34 --- NO. But in my last post to you I identified a small sample of questions regarding the little horn, the 10 horns, the timing of their coming out, why did God change their symbol from toes to horns, etc. Now, can you answer those questions before you disagree with my interpretations, and how does your interpretations fit with the answers to those questions?

 

[JustThinking]

Just in case it was not clear in the post - I see the succession of Popes as Pauls Man of Sin - or Ant-Christ But I think you might of got that from the post

Wayne, I certainly agree he is the man of sin, but two questions for you to help me understand your thoughts:

1) Is this man of sin also the same one as the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8?

2) Do you believe there is literaly an "anti-christ" figure that will arrive on the scene in the future, as opposed that John during those 4 verses speak of the "spirit of the anti-christ" and not a literal individual?

Thanks.

 

[WayneNSO]

I'm sure he means well, but what does the Bible say? This is prophecy yet to be fulfilled in the great tribulation of the last days.





I don't rely on what other people say whether Roman Catholics or Reformers or any other group, so it avoids the need to take sides. I think God is all you need to understand and live what the Bible says. But anyway, the Bible seems to take it as literal.

The world events are also pointing to it as literal. This world is moving toward converting monetary systems to digital and lots of places won't take cash anymore (like airports around the world).

If it is literally physical, what will your stance be? Take it or not?

The countless others statement was because you said it would be revealed to us - and that was to say it was - it was what the reformation was based upon and it is what gave us our Bibles in English and other tongues - the Papacy wanted it left in Latin.

As for if I am wrong and if it is literal would I take it ? Of course not - I would rather die than deny God.

But do not forget the book of Revelation says right at the beginning it is symbolic:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[WayneNSO]

That might be a tricky connection, since the scripture does not have anything directly to say about the middle ages.

The Bible has the whole of Human History in it - it starts in the first book with paradise lost and ends in the last with paradise restored.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: