Can Christians agree on this?

[biblestudent78]

• God: Belief in one God as three equal, distinct persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) sharing one divine essence. I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.
• Jesus Christ: Jesus is the Son of God, fully God and fully man, who was born of the Virgin Mary, crucified under Pontius Pilate, resurrected on the third day, and will return in glory. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father; by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.

• The Holy Spirit: The Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life who proceeds from the Father. Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified
• The Church: We believe in one holy, world-wide and apostolic Church and one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
• The Goal: The ultimate goal of the Christian life is a gradual, lifelong process of becoming united with God and partakers of the divine nature through faith, grace and prayer.

 

[gb9]

• God: Belief in one God as three equal, distinct persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) sharing one divine essence. I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.
• Jesus Christ: Jesus is the Son of God, fully God and fully man, who was born of the Virgin Mary, crucified under Pontius Pilate, resurrected on the third day, and will return in glory. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father; by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.
• The Holy Spirit: The Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life who proceeds from the Father. Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified
• The Church: We believe in one holy, world-wide and apostolic Church and one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
• The Goal: The ultimate goal of the Christian life is a gradual, lifelong process of becoming united with God and partakers of the divine nature through faith, grace and prayer.

i agree!

 

[wattie]

• God: Belief in one God as three equal, distinct persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) sharing one divine essence. I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.
• Jesus Christ: Jesus is the Son of God, fully God and fully man, who was born of the Virgin Mary, crucified under Pontius Pilate, resurrected on the third day, and will return in glory. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father; by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.
• The Holy Spirit: The Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life who proceeds from the Father. Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified
• The Church: We believe in one holy, world-wide and apostolic Church and one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
• The Goal: The ultimate goal of the Christian life is a gradual, lifelong process of becoming united with God and partakers of the divine nature through faith, grace and prayer.

I don't agree with one apostolic church.

Ecclessia..the Greek word for church, means assembly or congregation. A called out group to a meeting was the secular meaning and it became used for the New Testament local body of Christ.

 

[tablet123]

Concerning a trinity let us take a gander at these scriptures.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The Bible only attributes the Father as God.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Bible says the Son shall be called the everlasting Father.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jesus said the Father that dwells in Him does the works.

But if the Son is God in flesh why does He need the Father to do the works.

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

If the Son came in flesh why was Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit.

That would make Him the Holy Spirit in flesh not God the Son in flesh.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.

It appears the Son is the man Christ Jesus.

Not a trinity but one God who is a Holy Spirit, and Father is a title for God, and the Son is the man Christ Jesus.

The 3 relationships God has with His saints designated by titles.

Father- Creator and parent of the saints.

Son- God's visible relationship to the saints.

Holy Spirit- God's invisible relationship to the saints.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jesus came in the Father's name.

The Son inherited the name from the Father.

The Holy Ghost comes in the name of Jesus.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Those are titles and name is singular.

Jesus is the name.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles were baptized in the name of Jesus.

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Everything we do in word or deed is to be done in Jesus' name.

So why would we baptize in the titles.

1. Adam made in the image of God.

New Testament Adam was made in the fashion of Christ the image of God is the image of Christ.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word became flesh.

Which the Word was the plan of God in the beginning to come in the future in flesh.

So God created Adam in the image that He would appear in the future.

Let us make man in our image is God the Father and the man Christ Jesus.

2. Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.

There is only 1 throne in heaven not 2.

Which is the throne of God and the Lamb who is God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is the only person we will see in heaven which if you have seen Him then you have seen the Father for He is a visible image of the Father.

There is one God and one Mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus said all power was given to Him in heaven and earth.

God's right hand represents power, wisdom, and salvation.

David said the LORD said unto my Lord sit at my right hand "until" your enemies become your footstool.

For the Son must reign until His enemies are conquered and when that happens then the Son shall submit to God that God may be all in all.

So the Son at the right hand is a temporary role.

God exalted the man Christ to exercise the throne of power because He is the Mediator be at His right hand.

And when His enemies are conquered the Son shall stop being at the right hand that God may be all in all.

The 7 Churches in Revelation is how the Church age will go in popular influence.

Which the first Church was not caring about the poor like when they first started.

2,3, and 4 is the Roman Catholic Church which they were a popular influence for many years and became worse adding more falsehood.

The fifth Church is the Protestant movement but their works were not found perfect as they were still influenced by beliefs of the Catholic Church.

Which one was they were still holding on to the false belief of a trinity.

Jesus did not have a problem with the sixth Church which they were in the truth which included not believing in a trinity which was increasing.

The 7th Church was hypocritical and loved money and material things which we see popular now.

There is no trinity which the Catholic Church started that.

It is obvious when the Roman Empire embraced Christianity they did not get rid of their pagan and occult ways and it became their foundation for interpreting scriptures.

Which they believed the pagan belief of a trinity and had a female goddess Mary which they called Queen of heaven.

 

[ResidentAlien]

• God: Belief in one God as three equal, distinct persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) sharing one divine essence. I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.
• Jesus Christ: Jesus is the Son of God, fully God and fully man, who was born of the Virgin Mary, crucified under Pontius Pilate, resurrected on the third day, and will return in glory. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father; by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.
• The Holy Spirit: The Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life who proceeds from the Father. Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified
• The Church: We believe in one holy, world-wide and apostolic Church and one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
• The Goal: The ultimate goal of the Christian life is a gradual, lifelong process of becoming united with God and partakers of the divine nature through faith, grace and prayer.

What if they don't believe every one of your points. Should this list be a test of fellowship?

 

[dkontner]

Jesus isn't the 'second person of anything'.

Colossians 2​

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Isaiah 43​

11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

John 14​

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

John 8​

19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

Hebrews 1​

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.


No one preached the 'Trinity' in the holy scriptures. It's a tradition/rudiment.

2 Corinthians 11​

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

He is the root AND the offspring.

 

[dkontner]

What if they don't believe every one of your points. Should this list be a test of fellowship?

This is a good question.

 

[GWH]

• God: Belief in one God as three equal, distinct persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) sharing one divine essence. I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.
• Jesus Christ: Jesus is the Son of God, fully God and fully man, who was born of the Virgin Mary, crucified under Pontius Pilate, resurrected on the third day, and will return in glory. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father; by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.
• The Holy Spirit: The Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life who proceeds from the Father. Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified
• The Church: We believe in one holy, world-wide and apostolic Church and one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
• The Goal: The ultimate goal of the Christian life is a gradual, lifelong process of becoming united with God and partakers of the divine nature through faith, grace and prayer.

I am reluctant/hesitant to agree with these traditional statements without Scripture references to support them.
It also fails to recognize the role of general revelation in the salvation of most of the world for most of history.

 

[DavidLamb]

I don't agree with one apostolic church.

Ecclessia..the Greek word for church, means assembly or congregation. A called out group to a meeting was the secular meaning and it became used for the New Testament local body of Christ.

While the word "church" in the New Testament often refers to a local congregation of Christians (for example, the church at Ephesus, the church at Corinth, the church at Jerusalem), that is not always the case. For example, when Jesus said:

(Mat 16:18b NKJV) and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

He was not talking of a local group. Similarly, when Paul wrote:

(Col 1:18 NKJV) And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

he didn't mean that Jesus Christ is only the head of a local body of believers.

 

[GWH]

While the word "church" in the New Testament often refers to a local congregation of Christians (for example, the church at Ephesus, the church at Corinth, the church at Jerusalem), that is not always the case. For example, when Jesus said:

(Mat 16:18b NKJV) and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

He was not talking of a local group. Similarly, when Paul wrote:

(Col 1:18 NKJV) And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

he didn't mean that Jesus Christ is only the head of a local body of believers.

True, and a good creed would obviate the need for your clarification with the Scripture references you cited.

 

[wattie]

While the word "church" in the New Testament often refers to a local congregation of Christians (for example, the church at Ephesus, the church at Corinth, the church at Jerusalem), that is not always the case. For example, when Jesus said:

(Mat 16:18b NKJV) and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

He was not talking of a local group. Similarly, when Paul wrote:

(Col 1:18 NKJV) And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

he didn't mean that Jesus Christ is only the head of a local body of believers.

'The cat' 'The horse' 'the bar' 'the post office"

'The church' is in this same sense as an institution. Singular standing for plural.

Mathew 18 has the process for Church discipline, obviously speaking of the local NT church. Why would Jesus introduce an entirely different kind of church in Mathew 16:18, and switch to local in Mathew 18. That makes no sense.

There will be a future local church in heaven of all redeemed...that's in Hebrews 12. But that is yet future..all redeemed aren't assembled as one body yet.

"The Churches of God" (1 Thess 2:14) – The Arthur W. Pink Archive https://share.google/l3C8t6Yz0nVFQ0ao4

 

[rewriter]

• God: Belief in one God as three equal, distinct persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) sharing one divine essence. I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.
• Jesus Christ: Jesus is the Son of God, fully God and fully man, who was born of the Virgin Mary, crucified under Pontius Pilate, resurrected on the third day, and will return in glory. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father; by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.
• The Holy Spirit: The Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life who proceeds from the Father. Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified
• The Church: We believe in one holy, world-wide and apostolic Church and one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
• The Goal: The ultimate goal of the Christian life is a gradual, lifelong process of becoming united with God and partakers of the divine nature through faith, grace and prayer.

You are relying heavily on what is called "the Apostle's Creed", which was developed over time from an early 2nd century baptismal creed first found in Rome, with no clear connection to the apostles. You include the trinity, which was first described by Tertullian inthe late 2nd century and fought over in many church councils, with many rulings both for and against it, but eventually decided as official after the Roman government mandated it as correct. One key element was the bribe paid by the pagan Constantine to the church to get his desired wording approved at the first council of Nicaea, directly contradicting at least two other earlier church countils.

It might also be noted that most of these early councils were deemed valid only for the church within the Roman empire, the churches outside were free to hold alternative views, which many, not being bribed by the Roman government to conform, did. But within the Roman empire, churches followed the approved Roman understandings or did not receive funding and were instead persecuted. A high percentage of churches existent today are descended from churches approved by often pagan Roman empire's rulings.

 

[Aaron56]

You are relying heavily on what is called "the Apostle's Creed", which was developed over time from an early 2nd century baptismal creed first found in Rome, with no clear connection to the apostles. You include the trinity, which was first described by Tertullian inthe late 2nd century and fought over in many church councils, with many rulings both for and against it, but eventually decided as official after the Roman government mandated it as correct. One key element was the bribe paid by the pagan Constantine to the church to get his desired wording approved at the first council of Nicaea, directly contradicting at least two other earlier church countils.

It might also be noted that most of these early councils were deemed valid only for the church within the Roman empire, the churches outside were free to hold alternative views, which many, not being bribed by the Roman government to conform, did. But within the Roman empire, churches followed the approved Roman understandings or did not receive funding and were instead persecuted. A high percentage of churches existent today are descended from churches approved by often pagan Roman empire's rulings.

Yeah, for example the original 325AD creed did not mention the church. The reformed 381AD version included “In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”… that’s a capital “C” Roman church.

The creed also speaks of “the essence” shared by the Father and the Son. There is something amiss here. I’m currently studying it.

 

[GWH]

Yeah, for example the original 325AD creed did not mention the church. The reformed 381AD version included “In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”… that’s a capital “C” Roman church.

The creed also speaks of “the essence” shared by the Father and the Son. There is something amiss here. I’m currently studying it.

What is missing is reference to Scriptural support.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Christians agree on these things?:

Precious friend(s), highly doubtful (simply briefly peruse the internet and denominational
creeds and traditions, eh?), and probably not Until God's Great Grace Departure! (+ Update!):

1) For "The Deity Of The Lord Jesus Christ", one plausible thought is that when all the critics of

God's Sound Doctrine are dead and buried,​

His Eternally Settled And Unchangeable WORD Will Still Be Alive and Marching On, Correct?:​

"For There Are Three That Bear Record in heaven, The Father,​

The WORD, and The Holy Ghost: and These Three Are One."​

(1 John 5:7 AV)​

Here is the Complete study, if / just in the rare case one decides one is prayerfully​

andCarefully interested:​

​

160 BIBLE Reasons The LORD JESUS Christ Is Almighty God​

2) Concerning the ONE Baptism "For The Forgiveness Of sin"? Under Grace,

God's Pure And Holy Word Teaches The Following:​

God's ONE Baptism For The Body Of Christ!​

​

3) Be Blessed!

----------------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[rewriter]

1) For "The Deity Of The Lord Jesus Christ", one plausible thought is that when all the critics of

God's Sound Doctrine are dead and buried,​

His Eternally Settled And Unchangeable WORD Will Still Be Alive and Marching On, Correct?:​

"For There Are Three That Bear Record in heaven, The Father,​

The WORD, and The Holy Ghost: and These Three Are One."​

(1 John 5:7 AV)​

​

The problem with citing this passage is that it is not present in the earliest texts. It appears to have been a marginal scribal note that eventually became incorporated into the biblical text.

 

[biblestudent78]

You are relying heavily on what is called "the Apostle's Creed", which was developed over time from an early 2nd century baptismal creed first found in Rome, with no clear connection to the apostles. You include the trinity, which was first described by Tertullian in the late 2nd century and fought over in many church councils, with many rulings both for and against it, but eventually decided as official after the Roman government mandated it as correct. One key element was the bribe paid by the pagan Constantine to the church to get his desired wording approved at the first council of Nicaea, directly contradicting at least two other earlier church counsels.

It might also be noted that most of these early councils were deemed valid only for the church within the Roman empire, the churches outside were free to hold alternative views, which many, not being bribed by the Roman government to conform, did. But within the Roman empire, churches followed the approved Roman understandings or did not receive funding and were instead persecuted. A high percentage of churches existent today are descended from churches approved by often pagan Roman empire's rulings.

Rewriter:
Well done bible sleuth extraordinaire...almost. My point in introducing is that it is a 1625 yrs old statement of faith was formulated in 325 CE. It is a more concise version of what we call today the Eastern Orthodox Church. It would be more accurate to note that the "2nd century baptismal creed was a verbal baptismal process long before it became "written." Early Christian baptism relied on a simple threefold profession of faith in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, often structured as questions asked of the person being baptized. That question is asked today in millions of baptisms.....assuming the baptismal candidate is an adult.

I appreciate your recognition that the Nicene Creed was crafted by the Roman Emperor Constantine and heavy handed the final result. The objective was not religious. It was to quel disharmony in the Roman Empire which was increasingly Christian.

My other objective is to demonstrate to a large Christian community living day by day with the brittle hermeneutical dictates of long forgotten mere men that from the very beginning Christians had vastly more to agree about and treasure. Today the "bible" is a weapon used to repel other Christians perspectives and denigrate the validity of competing views. When we venture back to close to the beginning, we find vastly more things we agree about.

 

[biblestudent78]

I am reluctant/hesitant to agree with these traditional statements without Scripture references to support them.
It also fails to recognize the role of general revelation in the salvation of most of the world for most of history.

GWH:
I would like to learn more about your concepts of the "role of general revelation."

 

[rewriter]

Rewriter:
Well done bible sleuth extraordinaire...almost. My point in introducing is that it is a 1625 yrs old statement of faith was formulated in 325 CE. It is a more concise version of what we call today the Eastern Orthodox Church. It would be more accurate to note that the "2nd century baptismal creed was a verbal baptismal process long before it became "written." Early Christian baptism relied on a simple threefold profession of faith in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, often structured as questions asked of the person being baptized. That question is asked today in millions of baptisms.....assuming the baptismal candidate is an adult.

I appreciate your recognition that the Nicene Creed was crafted by the Roman Emperor Constantine and heavy handed the final result. The objective was not religious. It was to quel disharmony in the Roman Empire which was increasingly Christian.

My other objective is to demonstrate to a large Christian community living day by day with the brittle hermeneutical dictates of long forgotten mere men that from the very beginning Christians had vastly more to agree about and treasure. Today the "bible" is a weapon used to repel other Christians perspectives and denigrate the validity of competing views. When we venture back to close to the beginning, we find vastly more things we agree about.

I can largely agree with you, the only point we might truly disagree on is whether we are getting back to post-73 biblical understandings, that is after Rome fully won the 1st Jewish war when it appears that believers expected Rome's downfall or are we considering the obscure evidence that suggests a different understanding of some scriptures and history? There exists some obscure evidence that implies that pre-73 Jews and Christians were close allies, not opponents, and that all recorded hostility between the groups was invented to blame each other, likely by mutual agreement, for the rebellion against victorious Rome, who seemed to have God's approval for its reign.

 

[GWH]

GWH:
I would like to learn more about your concepts of the "role of general revelation."

Okay bs, I will begin by sharing two teachings of Paul:

TOP #10: Although God’s creation reveals His power and love, godless people suppress truth and exchange it for the lie of idolatry. [Rom. 1:18-25, cf. #3] This is what Adam and Eve did (Gen. 3:1-7, cf. 2Thes. 2:10-13). Paul says men are without excuse, because God’s eternal power and moral nature (love) are manifested by creation (Rom. 1:20). Apparently, creation combined with conscience or moral sense (Rom. 2:14-16) that manifests a moral Authority TOP #23) serves as a provisional or proto-gospel (Col. 1:23, Rom. 10:13-18, Gal. 3:8), which is the (general) revelational basis for divine salvation and judgment (TOP #24-26 & 281).

TOP #23: For Gentiles, their moral consciences will serve as the equivalent of the Mosaic Law for divine judgment. [Rom. 2:12-16] Sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Rom. 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

Now here is what I have shared on the Kerygma thread:

An obvious question to ask at this point is, “What is GRFS (God's requirement for salvation) for those who have never heard of Jesus?” (which includes everyone living B.C. and millions of people who have lived A.D.) If God loves the world (John 3:16) and wants everyone to be saved (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11), then He must provide an opportunity. God’s just judgment is illustrated by Jesus in the Parable of the Talents (Matt. 25:14-29), which indicates that God will judge souls on the basis of the truth (Word = Christ per John 1:1f.) they have received.

There are two main ways God/Christ is encountered:

1. General revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work and moral conscience. Paul said men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (Rom. 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (Col. 1:23, Rom. 10:13-18, Gal. 3:8). He also taught that all normal humans have an inner conscience or “common” sense (Rom. 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture, beginning with the Golden Rule (Matt. 7:12).

2. Special revelation (the OT and NT).

And here is what I have said on the Apologetics thread:

The choices involved in making the second watershed decision (the ground of meaning/morality) correspond to the following questions: For a humanist, “Is there any reason I should not be selfish?” [No/Yes, depending on how you feel or what the rulers decree or how the majority votes.] For a karmaist, “Does how I live ultimately matter?” [Not unless you can remember previous lives.] For a naturalist, “Does instinct negate volition? [If not, then why is evil/hatred not equally right or existentially lawful?] And for a theist, “What does God desire?” [That depends upon what message or revelation is from God.]

Which option and opinion is best or most true? Answering this question involves understanding how truth is acquired (epistemology). Some knowledge is gleaned directly from personal experiences and is available to all who seek to know the truth with an open mind (like Socrates or Buddha) by means of reflecting or meditating on experiences logically (aka general revelation). The apostle Paul indicated the world reveals God’s “invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature” (Rom. 1:20) and that conscience indicates “the requirements of the law” (Rom. 2:15).

What do you think of this insight regarding genrev that is not taught in churches I have attended?