Calvinism is Gospel !

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.
If I didn't know better, I might think that AI has learned the art of gaslighting... I'll pay much closer attention from here on out! :cautious:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Churchgoer
The Jesus of Calvinism seems to be a master thespian knocking on doors he never intends to enter into. He will short of it in spite of His declaration, "Behold! I stand at the door and knock... (no need to behold the entirety of this declaration)"

God is making you say that by decree!

.......
 
  • Heart
Reactions: Mem
That both encourages and terrifies me at the same time!
It seems that God is stirring something up in me, a sort of spark of ignition that will prove to be unquenchable. He is always "right there" with me, down to the split second, and though I've always kept Him close in my thoughts (even if at first appearance it might not seem so), I'm becoming more aware of that, and He's been making it so that I'm surer and surer, and surer, of that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Standard
Just when you thought it was safe to participate in a thread.


What is a them gospel?

Calvinism is not the gospel but I understand it is your gospel because you think you are special. Every time you post on here I think I get a whiff of something burning.
Tulip is the Gospel!
 
Rid yourself of the tulip pretzel mold and accept the plain meaning of John 3:3-21: God loves everyone in the world and whosoever believes in Jesus as Messiah is reborn spiritually/receives the HS and will be resurrected to heaven. 1Tim. 2:3-4 means the same; "all" means "world".

I am always dumbfounded by those who hold to the view of free will, who think they can just erase obvious verses that state otherwise and have been well argued, from their minds. Rather than providing a meaningful defense of their erroneous view - they do the most heinous thing by pitting one verse of God's Word against another verse in God's Word.

Those who hold to Free Grace, acknowledge all of Scripture and give explanation to those difficult verses, that on the surface, may seem contradictory to other verses. Contradiction lies not in the mind of God but in the mind of man.

Here are a few quotes from others. Perhaps you might ponder them. Probably not but perhaps.

So you believe you have free will? Then do not sin in thought, feeling, or deed. -- Martin Luther.

A man's free will cannot cure him of a toothache, or a sore finger;
and yet he madly thinks it is in its power to cure his soul. --
Augustus Toplady.

We do not choose God; God chooses us. Left to ourselves we would never choose Him. Our natural inclination is to run from God, not to seek Him. -- R.C. Sproul

Free Will vs. Free Grace - a poem

Free-will is a traitor to Jesus, my Lord;

Rebels at His sovereignty, counsel, and word;
Defying His power with impious strain,
And cries, "I'll not have this Jesus to reign."

Free-will is a liar, says "tis with ease;
A man can believe and repent when he please.
That he's a free agent, and so may refuse:
The good or the evil, whichever he choose."

Free-will is an imposter and cheat at the best,
To offer salvation he never possessed;
If certain conditions I only fulfill,
Yet gives me no power to do nor to will.

Free-will as a tyrant once ruled over me;
But Jesus o'ercame him and now I am free;
Made willing to own Him my King from that hour,
I bow to His scepter and yield to His power.


************************************************************

Free-grace is a scheme which Jehovah began,
In covenant counsel He drew up the plan;
The mighty Redeemer accomplished the whole,
And the Spirit imparted its joys in my soul.

Free-grace is distinguishing, sovereign to choose,
What objects to favor and whom to refuse;
His purpose must stand who is God ever blest,
The election obtained it, and blind are the rest.

Free-grace is the theme of the glorified throng,
While ages eternal are rolling along;
All glory and honor ascribe they to Him,
Who liveth and reigneth the only Supreme.

Free-grace long has been my soul's triumph and joy;
And while in the body, shall be my employ;
And when my glad spirit to God shall ascend,

Free-grace is the song that shall never have end. -- Cornelius Slim
 
The god of "unconditional election for salvation" while others are left with no ability to respond positively in this new covenant does not exist.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (KJV).

Full Stop.

I know you don't even believe what you posted. "Unconditional election" does not exist in God's Word.? You know it does.

Rom 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
Rom_11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom_11:7 What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:
1Th_1:4 knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election,


Would you like many, many more?
 
So then in your view Mary was evil, okay.
I see more clearly each day why this doctrine is labelled with the "h" label.
I never suggested that Mary was evil. The Bible reveals that she was a sinner like the rest of us. Sinners can do evil deeds, but it's nonsense to suggest that a person is evil. Evil doesn't exist until it's committed, it doesn't have a life of it's own and it's not a person or entity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DavidLamb
I am always dumbfounded by those who hold to the view of free will, who think they can just erase obvious verses that state otherwise and have been well argued, from their minds. Rather than providing a meaningful defense of their erroneous view - they do the most heinous thing by pitting one verse of God's Word against another verse in God's Word.

Those who hold to Free Grace, acknowledge all of Scripture and give explanation to those difficult verses, that on the surface, may seem contradictory to other verses. Contradiction lies not in the mind of God but in the mind of man.

Here are a few quotes from others. Perhaps you might ponder them. Probably not but perhaps.

So you believe you have free will? Then do not sin in thought, feeling, or deed. -- Martin Luther.

A man's free will cannot cure him of a toothache, or a sore finger;
and yet he madly thinks it is in its power to cure his soul. --
Augustus Toplady.

We do not choose God; God chooses us. Left to ourselves we would never choose Him. Our natural inclination is to run from God, not to seek Him. -- R.C. Sproul

Free Will vs. Free Grace - a poem

Free-will is a traitor to Jesus, my Lord;

Rebels at His sovereignty, counsel, and word;
Defying His power with impious strain,
And cries, "I'll not have this Jesus to reign."

Free-will is a liar, says "tis with ease;
A man can believe and repent when he please.
That he's a free agent, and so may refuse:
The good or the evil, whichever he choose."

Free-will is an imposter and cheat at the best,
To offer salvation he never possessed;
If certain conditions I only fulfill,
Yet gives me no power to do nor to will.

Free-will as a tyrant once ruled over me;
But Jesus o'ercame him and now I am free;
Made willing to own Him my King from that hour,
I bow to His scepter and yield to His power.


************************************************************

Free-grace is a scheme which Jehovah began,
In covenant counsel He drew up the plan;
The mighty Redeemer accomplished the whole,
And the Spirit imparted its joys in my soul.

Free-grace is distinguishing, sovereign to choose,
What objects to favor and whom to refuse;
His purpose must stand who is God ever blest,
The election obtained it, and blind are the rest.

Free-grace is the theme of the glorified throng,
While ages eternal are rolling along;
All glory and honor ascribe they to Him,
Who liveth and reigneth the only Supreme.

Free-grace long has been my soul's triumph and joy;
And while in the body, shall be my employ;
And when my glad spirit to God shall ascend,

Free-grace is the song that shall never have end. -- Cornelius Slim
I've noticed there to be a few here who speak for others,as if there is a group of like minded opponents to the golden chain of Salvation in scripture.
A collective of Gospel opponents.

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Really, does it require debate at this point?
Those who deny the Gospel already will not be moved by arguing the Gospel is true.

And if you consider 1Corinthians 2:14, it becomes obvious we are witnessing that passage being reiterated by people like mem, pinebeach,and others.

What are we arguing for?

When God calls whom he will,and no one can come to Jesus unless this occurs first, and we know this, because it is what God says,what do we have to prove to those who don't believe it? Even when it is in writing in his own inspired work.

Those opponents are actually showing they have the nerve to say publicly , God didn't mean what he said. And Jesus didn't really die so to guarantee his plan.

Keeping this thread alive just allows heresy and blasphemers to have a platform as unbelievers.
 
  • Heart
Reactions: awelight
Actually it is NOT an honest invitation in your doctrine, you just say that but it is not, along with the fact this is once again eisegesis.
So, I take it you resent the fact that God is sovereign over every aspect of His creation. You obviously reject the Bible doctrines of "election and predestination", because they seem unfair in your eyes.
Let me remind you that God doesn't care about your opinion, He does whatever He pleases, with or without your approval.

God commands His people to preach the gospel to every creature, yes that includes the reprobate, whom God has already chosen not to save. They need to hear the gospel, so they will be without excuse on judgement day and God will be justified in meeting out the eternal punishment their sin deserves.

If the (non elect) never heard the gospel, then they could plead ignorance at their judgement, that's why my Church goes door knocking with the awful or good news, depending on who the hearer is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DavidLamb
You project YOUR emotional attachment to the tulip pretzel, because your rant did not refute the truth of what I posted:

Tulip teaches God is NOT gracious, omniloving and just, but rather that God does NOT love the world, does NOT want everyone to be saved, and DOES show favoritism, contradicting GW in John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4 and Rom. 2:11.
Thus, it is anti-Gospel heresy; believe at your own risk (Gal. 1:6-9)!

You are so hung up on this "tulip pretzel", you can't see the forest for the tree. Forget about "TULIP" and concentrate on the Scriptures that formed the TULIP acronym. TULIP is not a doctrine. It is a simple acronym to remind believers of these five steps which include man's condition and God's application of salvation.

Likewise, you are so hung up on "Total Depravity". If you don't like the word "total", then don't pay any attention to it. Personally, I don't like the term "total" because I think it creates misunderstanding in todays language. People think you are saying, a person is incapable of doing anything "good". Man, in his fallen state, can do many things that might be considered "good" by other men.

However, what he can't do in this flesh - is please God. Man can only please God in spirit, through the agency of the Spirit. Do you deny, that the Scriptures teach that our spirit became as dead in the fall? Scripture clearly says that I was "dead" in trespasses and sins. Well I am obviously not "dead" physically - for I still breath and move. So dead in what way? Dead spiritually. We lost communion with God, who is spirit. Therefore, after the fall, all of mankind became spiritually dead and our nature marred horribly. Dead... unable to do anything or understand anything in a spiritual way of pleasing God. Depravity, as John Calvin outlined it, included this reality. Don't make more of it than it truly is. In the age that John Calvin discussed these things, "depravity" meant a loss of something. To be depraved - is to be missing something. When one says "total depravity", it means to have lost something totally. In our modern age, depravity takes on a more "moral" meaning. Morality was not the subject.
 
That Jacob being chosen has nothing to do with salvation, Jacob was chosen to be the one who receives the blessing of the firstborn despite being the younger.

If you truly believe this - then you have missed the whole point of Paul's writing. Additionally, you didn't put it together with the following context.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
Rom 9:18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
Rom 9:21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
Rom 9:23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
 
A fine example of the pompous and self righteous supporter of false doctrine as ever there was. You are the one that is derelict in both understanding, according to the biblical definition, and may totally be missing discernment, both as a spiritual gift and as learned in life in generality.

God does not fit the human definition of understanding and He does not insult unless a person believes themself to be superior to Him because of their lack of belief in how He has revealed Himself in scripture.

I am left with the following as spoken by the true prophet of God Isaiah

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

That sums up most of the blather in this thread.

It is truly funny, if not sad, how religionist that are in error always seem to think those that defend free grace are pompous and self righteous. I am neither.

I am humbled and surprised that God would even consider me in election. I deserve condemnation - not mercy. But being brought into a saving relationship in Christ, I expect to be attacked and I have been for thirty plus years. However, I take comfort in our Lord's high priestly prayer:

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine:
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
 
  • Heart
Reactions: Magenta
The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin. That's alot of trouble to go to if God is going to just decide for people who will accept His offer of salvation or not.

That's the fine print that Calvinists seem to ignore. Along with everything else that plainly shows that God does not put His Spirit in anyone without them first accepting Christ.
The Holy Spirit does not convict the world of sin, the world hates God and loves sin. So how can the Holy Spirit be convicting the world of something it loves.

Unbelievers are spiritually dead and unable to choose God on their own. The Holy Spirit must first change the human heart and plant a new nature (being born again) so the person can see and believe the gospel. This inner quickening by the Spirit causes faith, meaning faith is the fruit of the new life, not its cause.

While the Spirit's initiating work comes first to make a person alive, the permanent indwelling of the Spirit is tied directly to union with Christ and faith. There is no stage where a person is permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit yet remains an unbelieving, unrepentant outsider. The moment the Spirit regenerates, the response is immediate faith and repentance.

 
  • Like
Reactions: DavidLamb
I've noticed there to be a few here who speak for others,as if there is a group of like minded opponents to the golden chain of Salvation in scripture.
A collective of Gospel opponents.

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Really, does it require debate at this point?
Those who deny the Gospel already will not be moved by arguing the Gospel is true.

And if you consider 1Corinthians 2:14, it becomes obvious we are witnessing that passage being reiterated by people like mem, pinebeach,and others.

What are we arguing for?

When God calls whom he will,and no one can come to Jesus unless this occurs first, and we know this, because it is what God says,what do we have to prove to those who don't believe it? Even when it is in writing in his own inspired work.

Those opponents are actually showing they have the nerve to say publicly , God didn't mean what he said. And Jesus didn't really die so to guarantee his plan.

Keeping this thread alive just allows heresy and blasphemers to have a platform as unbelievers.

You are so very correct.

If we understand the whole of Bible teaching, then we know that everyone of God's elect will hear the Gospel and repent and believe; the Holy Spirit will insure this through regeneration.

As believers, we are "sheep" hunters. Looking out for those hungering and thirsting for the Truth. With these the Gospel will be effectual.

As to presenting arguments in the face of unmoving opposition - I do this because you never know:
1.) When the Lord may send the Spirit to regenerate on of his own, who until this happens will look like the devil himself.
2.) One never knows who else maybe reading the posts and as such may grow by something that is said.
3.) Because we are commanded to contend for the faith.

Thank you for your kind words in the midst of a storm.
 
Oh I don't know. What about the people who stand at the edge of the world and tell those approaching to be careful and not
fall off the edge?

ALL YOUR WORKS ARE SINFUL!!! READ THE BIBLE. NOTHING WE DO EARNS OR KEEPS SALVATION. I would think you as the good Calvinist you are would know that.

This is the thing. Calvinists constantly trip themselves up and make obvious the heretical and just plain wrong interpretations and machinations they are famous for.
Making baseless allegations, only serves to expose your ignorance. If you find something that I believe to be unbiblical, then please bring it to my attention.
I'm not interested in your private opinions, because the world is full of opinionated people being tossed about with every wind of doctrine, like a ship without a rudder in a storm.

You put me in a very difficult position, by forcing me to choose between your opinion and Gods Word. If you have something Biblical to share or correct me with, then please do so. I love being corrected, but expressing your private unbiblical opinion doesn't correct me at all.
 
Meaning, that we cannot save ourselves which is God had to solve that problem.

but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Rom. 5:8

The Holy Spirit will draw people to God and convict of sin. He does not enter unbelievers.
If "He does not enter unbelievers", then nobody is saved, because we're all born as unbelievers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DavidLamb
You are so hung up on this "tulip pretzel", you can't see the forest for the tree. Forget about "TULIP" and concentrate on the Scriptures that formed the TULIP acronym. TULIP is not a doctrine. It is a simple acronym to remind believers of these five steps which include man's condition and God's application of salvation.

Likewise, you are so hung up on "Total Depravity". If you don't like the word "total", then don't pay any attention to it. Personally, I don't like the term "total" because I think it creates misunderstanding in todays language. People think you are saying, a person is incapable of doing anything "good". Man, in his fallen state, can do many things that might be considered "good" by other men.

However, what he can't do in this flesh - is please God. Man can only please God in spirit, through the agency of the Spirit. Do you deny, that the Scriptures teach that our spirit became as dead in the fall? Scripture clearly says that I was "dead" in trespasses and sins. Well I am obviously not "dead" physically - for I still breath and move. So dead in what way? Dead spiritually. We lost communion with God, who is spirit. Therefore, after the fall, all of mankind became spiritually dead and our nature marred horribly. Dead... unable to do anything or understand anything in a spiritual way of pleasing God. Depravity, as John Calvin outlined it, included this reality. Don't make more of it than it truly is. In the age that John Calvin discussed these things, "depravity" meant a loss of something. To be depraved - is to be missing something. When one says "total depravity", it means to have lost something totally. In our modern age, depravity takes on a more "moral" meaning. Morality was not the subject.

Cite one Scripture that you think supports the tulip tree. Tulip teaches five heretical beliefs, beginning with divine hate and favoritism, whereas Scripture interpreted in context clearly teaches that God loves all of humanity and wants every soul to be saved.

Spiritual death/depravity is remedied by repentance/seeking truth, which every sinner is free to do until they become totally depraved.
SPUR
 
Status
Not open for further replies.