OSAS, When does salvation take place?

[legion]

We are directed to call upon Him, denoting a sense that we are stuck fast and need rescued.

Yeah it doesn't matter there is nothing in any text Old Testament New Testament that even remotely suggest that you cannot throw away the gift given to you of salvation

This is not a loss of it is a forfeiture intentionally and to this there is evidence anyway since we have apostates and you can't get around it an apostate was a believer who turned on the belief and turned on Jesus it's just not somebody who was faking it acting like a Christian going to plastic with somebody who was a safe soul

 

[legion]

We are directed to call upon Him, denoting a sense that we are stuck fast and need rescued.

Yes and they're in is the interesting subplot that has yet to be answered why create a race of beings knowing that they will fall away from you because of free choice and remain sinful and destined to hell unless we accept Jesus for who he claims to be.

Fall a pit at conception, squeal like a pig repent of your wrongdoings pray that God will accept your plea and be saved or burn hell. Honestly, while I know what a great thing Christ work on the cross is, at best it's entrapment, at worst it's blackmail.

And since we cannot change God we simply have to go along with it that's the way it is.

so I have a simple statement to God that I use quite a bit which is "okay great you have some purpose for me you better tell me because apparently I can't figure it out if you want me to stop something you need to spell it out pretty clear." And so far very little has been explained and we are at this point still relegated as Pawns not priest

life goes on... one day and event seems evil, later it's a blessing. I simply pray that my cause of death is painless.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Yes and they're in is the interesting subplot that has yet to be answered why create a race of beings knowing that they will fall away from you because of free choice and remain sinful and destined to hell unless we accept Jesus for who he claims to be.

Fall a pit at conception, squeal like a pig repent of your wrongdoings pray that God will accept your plea and be saved or burn hell. Honestly, while I know what a great thing Christ work on the cross is, at best it's entrapment, at worst it's blackmail.

And since we cannot change God we simply have to go along with it that's the way it is.

so I have a simple statement to God that I use quite a bit which is "okay great you have some purpose for me you better tell me because apparently I can't figure it out if you want me to stop something you need to spell it out pretty clear." And so far very little has been explained and we are at this point still relegated as Pawns not priest

life goes on... one day and event seems evil, later it's a blessing. I simply pray that my cause of death is painless.

It's not entrapment or blackmail. Salvation is in Jesus Christ alone, and He IS salvation. Walk away from Jesus, you walk away from salvation. It's not entrapment or blackmail because being with Him is actually pleasant and joyful. And with the Holy Spirit, He makes following and obeying God so easy. I couldn't believe how easy He makes it, but it's true!

 

[Mem]

Yeah it doesn't matter there is nothing in any text Old Testament New Testament that even remotely suggest that you cannot throw away the gift given to you of salvation

You can mischaracterize God, as Job did, but Job never stopped believing that God does whatever he pleases. However, i wouldn't go as far as to say that it pleased God to give Job boils. Job said all sorts of unrighteous things about God, yet he 'remained righteous.' This suggests that His righteousness did not lie in what Job said or did. Was Job's righteousness counted with the same weight as Abraham's.

This is not a loss of it is a forfeiture intentionally and to this there is evidence anyway since we have apostates and you can't get around it an apostate was a believer who turned on the belief and turned on Jesus it's just not somebody who was faking it acting like a Christian going to plastic with somebody who was a safe soul

The world is apostate because the light has shown unto all. And their all faking it like they're doing just fine without Him, with some other 'god.'
Ps 103:19
Everything will go according to His plan. Isa 14:24; Prov 19:21
His purpose will stand, and all His good pleasure will be accomplished. Isa 46:10

He has no pleasure in the puffed up Hab 2:4
He favors the meek. Ps 149:4

Jesus did not commit Himself to everybody that believed in His name because He knew what was in them. Jn 2:23-24.

 

[Mem]

Yes and they're in is the interesting subplot that has yet to be answered why create a race of beings knowing that they will fall away from you because of free choice and remain sinful and destined to hell unless we accept Jesus for who he claims to be.

The prerequisite for excepting Jesus is excepting that you need to be saved, by such as Jesus claims that He is, the Word of God. Think about it, you are saved by God's word. That speaks more about God's word than anything about you. Those that reject it, do so proudly, but those that honor it, do so meekly.

Fall a pit at conception, squeal like a pig repent of your wrongdoings pray that God will accept your plea and be saved or burn hell. Honestly, while I know what a great thing Christ work on the cross is, at best it's entrapment, at worst it's blackmail.

God provided His salvation before you even asked. He saw our inevitable fall and devised His plan before He breathed that initial life into Adam. Imagine taking a deep breath in preparation, pausing a moment in readiness but anticipation of 'getting the ball rolling' in the creation of mankind, and then exhaling...

And since we cannot change God we simply have to go along with it that's the way it is.

I know we need a whole lot of improvement, but what is there to change about God?

so I have a simple statement to God that I use quite a bit which is "okay great you have some purpose for me you better tell me because apparently I can't figure it out if you want me to stop something you need to spell it out pretty clear." And so far very little has been explained and we are at this point still relegated as Pawns not priest

The ear, the thumb, and the toe of a priest is anointed with the blood of the lamb which doesn't determine his purpose as much as Who he serves, a mediator between God and man. And I've only said this by inspiration to this point and so, thinking to make sure I'm not speaking too far off, I searched it and the engine retrieved this:



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Purpose of the High Priest in the Bible​

The purpose of the High Priest was to serve as the chief mediator between God and the people of Israel, ...

life goes on... one day and event seems evil, later it's a blessing. I simply pray that my cause of death is painless.

Ps 145:20; Psalm 1:6

And speaking of painful blessings.
Coincidentally, I've been experiencing severe leg and foot cramps from overwork and dehydration, and probably a magnesium deficiency. However, while in the process of composing my reply to you, both my feet cramped up at the same time, and the toes on both simultaneously, as if they were hands, split in the middle to form the letter shin which is understood to signify fire.
A priest forms this letter with his hands in priestly service that inspired Leonard Nimoy's "Spock greeting" and it signifies the "S", or shin, in "Shalom" which is roughly summarized to mean, "Peace be with you. Be complete, spirit, body, and soul."

I just thought this to be peculiar and worth mentioning.

Shalom. Shalom.

 

[2Christ]

Hello again 2Christ, I certainly agree that our obedience (or the lack thereof) helps to reveal who we really are (true believers or make-believers), and that the quality and consistency of our obedience is a pretty good measure of where our daily walk is at. However, in what way/ways do you also believe that it is our obedience that secures 1. our ongoing salvation and 2. the ongoing AND growing personal relationship that we now enjoy with Him Thanks


I don't believe that I said that "I never knew you" is the "whole explanation", but the "key to everything else" instead, because it's from that (the loving, personal relationship that we have with Him & that He established with us) that everything else in the Christian life flows (e.g. "apart from Me you can do nothing" .. e.g. John 15:5b).

As for the works that the many (in v22) were claiming to do, none of them are works of iniquity ~in and of themselves~, of course, but they were declared to be such by the Lord because 1. He never knew them, and likewise then 2. they never knew Him. So, these "works" that they claimed to do in His Name, even if they actually made a show of doing them, could not have been done in accordance with His will and/or by His power because, again, He ~never~ knew them.


If not for God and the promises that He made to us (to keep those of us who are truly His, safe), I would agree with you about that, but His promises to us remain (e.g. John 3:16, 5:24, 10:27-28; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; Jude 24-25).

Many other verses and passages lead me to the same conclusion, such as those found in John 6. For instance, here's an excerpt (and summary of sorts) from John 6:37-40,

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day".​

​

This is not to say that the other side has no verses of its own to support its POV, you do, which is why I believe both sides need to be extremely careful whenever we discuss such matters, especially publicly (for instance, some of the things that the Lord says to us in John 15 are the most concerning from my POV, but we'll need to continue this discussion later because I need to go now).

I may or may not be able to return later tonight. If I cannot, hopefully I will be able to finish replying to the rest of your post tomorrow (and I look forward to discussing it with you further too ).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
p.s. - although it has little to do with what we've been discussing here of late, I think that you may enjoy the following Christian quote, not because it's one of my very favorites (it is), but because I've found that it has always proven to be the right thing to do, especially when the need arises to make particularly difficult decisions.

View attachment 292641​

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I think the main point where we differ is that you make obedience only the evidence of salvation, while Jesus repeatedly presents it as a continuing condition for remaining in Him.

Jesus did not ask, "How do you prove you are saved?" He asked whether we continue to keep His words.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15:10, ASV) Yes this is the part many reject and will have nothing to do with, but Christ was clear we Must to enter into Life, there is no way around it at all. SO what do we do with this solemn declaration bade by Christ? ( I am not saying this pertains to you)

Notice that Jesus does not say, "Because you already abide, you will keep My commandments." He says, "If ye keep... ye shall abide." That is a continuing relationship, not merely evidence of one.

Likewise, Jesus warns believers:

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing... If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:5-6, ASV)

If remaining in Christ were automatic and unconditional, there would be no reason for these warnings.

The same is true in Matthew 7. Jesus does not reject them merely because He "never knew" them. He gives the reason: "Depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:23, ASV). Their lawlessness is not incidental. It is part of His judgment. Jesus consistently connects knowing Him with doing the Father's will and keeping His commandments.

So I fully agree that salvation begins by God's grace. But according to Jesus, the relationship He gives must also be continued by abiding in Him, and He defines abiding as keeping His commandments. Obedience is therefore more than evidence. It is part of faithfully remaining in the One who saves us. All Jesus said must be taken together, all of it, and yes there are warnings, and we must obey following the commandments because he said so. DO you agree we have to keep the commandments? salvation is all about keeping them its about doing our Heavenly Father's will just like Jesus showed us no matter what and to the end.

 

[legion]

It's not entrapment or blackmail. Salvation is in Jesus Christ alone, and He IS salvation. Walk away from Jesus, you walk away from salvation. It's not entrapment or blackmail because being with Him is actually pleasant and joyful. And with the Holy Spirit, He makes following and obeying God so easy. I couldn't believe how easy He makes it, but it's true!

I fully agree... I was expressing my human view. However I do not find that it is easy having the exposure to things that I have had

 

[legion]

The prerequisite for excepting Jesus is excepting that you need to be saved, by such as Jesus claims that He is, the Word of God. Think about it, you are saved by God's word. That speaks more about God's word than anything about you. Those that reject it, do so proudly, but those that honor it, do so meekly.

God provided His salvation before you even asked. He saw our inevitable fall and devised His plan before He breathed that initial life into Adam. Imagine taking a deep breath in preparation, pausing a moment in readiness but anticipation of 'getting the ball rolling' in the creation of mankind, and then exhaling...

I know we need a whole lot of improvement, but what is there to change about God?

The ear, the thumb, and the toe of a priest is anointed with the blood of the lamb which doesn't determine his purpose as much as Who he serves, a mediator between God and man. And I've only said this by inspiration to this point and so, thinking to make sure I'm not speaking too far off, I searched it and the engine retrieved this:


Like
Dislike

Purpose of the High Priest in the Bible​

The purpose of the High Priest was to serve as the chief mediator between God and the people of Israel, ...



Ps 145:20; Psalm 1:6

And speaking of painful blessings.
Coincidentally, I've been experiencing severe leg and foot cramps from overwork and dehydration, and probably a magnesium deficiency. However, while in the process of composing my reply to you, both my feet cramped up at the same time, and the toes on both simultaneously, as if they were hands, split in the middle to form the letter shin which is understood to signify fire.
A priest forms this letter with his hands in priestly service that inspired Leonard Nimoy's "Spock greeting" and it signifies the "S", or shin, in "Shalom" which is roughly summarized to mean, "Peace be with you. Be complete, spirit, body, and soul."

I just thought this to be peculiar and worth mentioning.

Shalom. Shalom.

I pretty much don't think I disagree with any of that.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I fully agree... I was expressing my human view. However I do not find that it is easy having the exposure to things that I have had

I understand. Not everyone has had an easy life. What happens colors our views.

 

[Shepherd]

Acts 24
22And when Felix heard these things, having more perfect knowledge of that way, he deferred them, and said, When Lysias the chief captain shall come down, I will know the uttermost of your matter. 23And he commanded a centurion to keep Paul, and to let him have liberty, and that he should forbid none of his acquaintance to minister or come unto him.
24And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ. 25And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

Righteousness, temperance and judgment to come: Where have I seen that before?

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

That tells me that Felix, upon hearing Paul present the Gospel, was "reproved" by the Holy Spirit (who John referred to " theComforter")

All Felix had to do was repent and trust Jesus, a single, simple act of turning from sin and self to Jesus. That is not a "work"; it takes place only in the heart. If Felix had trusted Jesus and not waited for that "convenient season", he would have become a "new creature" "passed from death unto life", "Indwelled by the Holy Spirit" and would "not come into condemnation". Felix would not have just "decided" one day to become a Christian because he would have "called on Him(Jesus) while he was near". One must be drawn by the Holy Spirit, as Felix was, but One MUST choose to accept and trust what the Holy Spirit is drawing them to....Jesus.

Then they are saved forever.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

And you as well, 2Christ I always prefer rational/reasonable discussions, even with those whose beliefs I may be opposed or even diametrically opposed to, because anything else always seems to end up being an unprofitable waste of time for both sides (well, except for those who seem like they just came here to fight with other members, that is ).

I think the main point where we differ is that you make obedience only the evidence of salvation....

Yes, that's basically true (though there is so much more to it, of course), because I believe that Biblically, our salvation is exclusively a merciful and gracious one on His part, alone, and that from first to last/regeneration to glorification.

Biblically, I don't believe that it can be considered to be otherwise .. e.g. John 7:24, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5.

....while Jesus repeatedly presents it as a continuing condition for remaining in Him.

Yes, here is where we differ, to be sure, as I believe that Jesus never presents anything that 'we' MUST do as a condition for remaining in Him (save believing). Rather, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, what you believe are "conditions" (that must be fulfilled by us to continue in the faith), I contend are actually "descriptions" of true believers, instead.

IOW, we (true Christian believers, that is) are the ones who "will" (~not~ "must") endure to the end. The make-believers or CINO and/or "sons of the evil one" among us (e.g. Matthew 7:22-23, 13:24-30, 36-43), never believed (no matter what they may claim), and they never will. See to Matthew 13:1-23 concerning this too.

So, what you've presented so far as "imperative" verbs (and therefore "commands" to be followed BY us .. e.g. John 15), are actually indicative verbs (which are descriptive, statements of fact ABOUT us, instead). IOW, we choose to obey now NOT because we are commanded to and must, but because of who we are now/because of the new creature in Christ that He created us as, with a new nature and new set of desires (to please Him instead of continuing to please ourselves, which we did continually before as unbelievers).

Admittedly, we are often frustrated, because on this side of the grave our old self/old nature continues to lurk in the shadows behind our new self/new nature (e.g. Ephesians 4:22-24) in the hope of gaining control of us again, so we are faced with a daily battle, though this is a battle that is not only winnable (by believers) in his life (e.g. John 8:32; Romans 12:2; James 4:7; 1 Peter 5:8-11), but a temporary one too (as I just mentioned), PTL

Whoops, I have got to go again, but I intend to return this evening and finish my reply to you (Dv).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

Romans 11​

6 If it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.​

.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Biblically, I don't believe that it can be considered to be otherwise .. e.g. John 7:24, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5.

The Scriptures that I intended to write down as examples (in my last post, just above) were, Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5 (NOT John 7:24). Sorry about that

Fortunately, I wrote the correct ones in when I went to Bible Gateway to link them to my post, so if you click on the link to those particular Scriptures in my last post, you will actually see the verses/passages that I intended to include all along, instead

 

[Kroogz]

All Felix had to do was repent and trust Jesus, a single, simple act of turning from sin and self to Jesus.

Many people turn from sin and self.......It will not cut it.


Acts 16:31~~~Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved........


It is so simple, most complicate it.

 

[Kroogz]

Many people turn from sin and self.......It will not cut it.

And it's sad that the loss/forfeit/walk away from salvation.......Turn right back into turning from sin and self to "make it."

 

[OMC]

I was asked to start a new thread concerning this comment I made in another thread:

>If you read what He says in mat 7 we find out that we are not 'saved' till Judgement.

>21;“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22;Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23;And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

>Jesus is literally describing a day of judgement where most of us will be judged. The key to reconciling examples in the bible like the thief on the cross who was told today you will be with me in paradise; is that Jesus' judgement is the key. Meaning Jesus can judge you in this life as being saved like the thief on the cross, or He can condemn you as He did the pharisees who blasphemed the Holy Spirit in mat 7. Or it can happen at judgement as described in mat 7 "on that day." (Day of judgement.)

Once this judgement happens and Jesus judges you as being 'saved' you can never loose salvation.

We are not saved when we decide we want to be saved. Why? Because salvation is not a work it is a free gift from God. This means the Prays we pray, the plans of salvation we follow, the sacarments that we take, the creed we declare have nothing to do with biblical salvation. Jesus was asked in luke 10 How do we inherit eternal life:

25Now, a lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?”

27;He answered, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’

28He said to him, “You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live.”

Does this mean that all of the things we do to declare our intention to follow Jesus and be saved keeps us from salvation? No, I'm saying all Jesus said do is Love God with all of our ability to do so, if this means you must take communion and be baptized then for you This is absolutely what you must do to be saved at Judgement.

This took me a minute but i hope i can correct a few things.
Your statement contains three major theological mistakes according to Scripture.
It misreads Matthew 7 by treating it as a statement that “no one is saved until Judgment Day.”
It contradicts dozens of passages that teach believers are already saved now (present reality), are being saved (ongoing), and will be saved (future).
It misunderstands Luke 10 by treating Jesus’ answer as a “plan of salvation,” when He was actually exposing the lawyer’s self‑righteousness.
Matthew 7:21–23 is not Jesus saying, “No one is saved until Judgment Day.”
What he IS saying is, “Not everyone who claims to know Me actually does."
What Matthew 7 actually teaches
Some people profess faith (“Lord, Lord”).
Some people perform religious works (prophesying, miracles).
Yet Jesus says He never knew them — meaning they were never saved at all.
This passage is about false believers, not about the timing of salvation.
Scripture repeatedly says believers already have eternal life now,
“He who believes has eternal life.” — John 6:47
“We have passed from death to life.” — 1 John 3:14
“By grace you have been saved.” — Ephesians 2:8
“There is now no condemnation.” — Romans 8:1
If salvation only occurs at Judgment Day, none of these verses make sense.
Matthew 7 is a warning against self‑deception, not a denial of present salvation.

You wrote, “Jesus can judge you in this life as being saved like the thief on the cross… or condemn you as He did the Pharisees…”
This is not what Scripture teaches. The thief on the cross, Jesus did not “judge him early.” Jesus responded to the thief’s faith: “Today you will be with Me in paradise.” — Luke 23:43
This is instant salvation, not early judgment.
The Pharisees, Jesus did not condemn them to hell in Matthew 7. He condemned their blasphemy (Matthew 12), but He did not pronounce final judgment.
Final judgment happens at the last day (John 12:48).
Salvation happens the moment a person believes (John 5:24).
Condemnation is already present for unbelievers (John 3:18), but final judgment is future.
Your model tries to merge salvation and judgment into one event. Scripture keeps them distinct.

You said, “once Jesus judges you saved, you can never lose salvation”​

This is partly true — but your reasoning is incorrect.
Believers are secure because:
They are sealed (Ephesians 1:13–14).
They are kept by God’s power (1 Peter 1:5).
Christ will lose none of those given to Him (John 6:39).
But this security is based on union with Christ, not on a “judgment event.”
Your model says: “We are not saved until Jesus judges us saved.”
Scripture says: “We are saved the moment we believe, and judgment later reveals it.”
You Said, "prayers, sacraments, creeds, and repentance “have nothing to do with salvation”
What Scripture actually teaches
Salvation is not earned by works (Ephesians 2:8–9).
But salvation produces works (Ephesians 2:10).
Faith is expressed through repentance, confession, baptism, obedience.
These things do not cause salvation — but they accompany it.
Your statement implies, “None of these matter at all.”
“They matter as evidence of genuine faith.”

You wrote: “Jesus said all you must do is love God and neighbor to be saved.”
This is not what Jesus meant. Why Jesus answered this way,

The lawyer asked, “What must I do to inherit eternal life?”
He wanted a works‑based answer.

Jesus responded with the Law, not the Gospel.
Why?
Because the Law exposes sin.
“By the law comes knowledge of sin.” — Romans 3:20
“No one will be justified by the law.” — Galatians 2:16
Jesus was showing the lawyer,
“If you want to earn eternal life, you must love perfectly — which you cannot do.”
This is why the lawyer immediately tries to justify himself (Luke 10:29).

Luke 10 is not a salvation formula. It is a diagnosis of human inability

You said, “if you need baptism or communion to love God, then you must do them to be saved at judgment”
This is backwards.
Scripture teaches:
Baptism and communion are commands, not optional.
But they are responses to salvation, not prerequisites.
Your model makes salvation depend on, “Whatever you personally feel you need to do to love God.”
Scripture makes salvation depend on Faith in Christ alone.
Salvation has Three Tenses,
Past — You have been saved Justification (Ephesians 2:8)
Present — You are being saved Sanctification (1 Corinthians 1:18)
Future — You will be saved Glorification (Romans 13:11)
Judgment Day does not determine salvation
It reveals it.
“The Lord knows those who are His.” — 2 Timothy 2:19
“He who believes has eternal life.” — John 6:47
“We have passed from death to life.” — 1 John 3:14
Believers already possess eternal life.
Unbelievers already stand condemned.
Judgment Day simply publicly separates the two.

 

[Drich]

This took me a minute but i hope i can correct a few things.

I thank you for the time you spent.

Your statement contains three major theological mistakes according to Scripture.
It misreads Matthew 7 by treating it as a statement that “no one is saved until Judgment Day.”

Actually no. I specifically say "day of your judgement," not "judgement day." there is a difference. As Judgement day points to a future court date some where between the apocalypse and the 1000 year reign of Christ..

The day of your judgement can happen at any time. For the thief on the cross it was just before his death. to the Pharisees who blasphemed the Holy Spirit, this judgement came right after their pronouncement that Satan was the source of Jesus' abilities.

Jesus can judge us at anytime. That said for most according to scripture judgement will happen "On that day." Which is "The judgement day" you speak of as many will go to Jesus proclaiming to be christian only to find out that Jesus never knew them.

It contradicts dozens of passages that teach believers are already saved now (present reality), are being saved (ongoing), and will be saved (future).

Actually it doesn't, as again judgement is not a fixed time at some point in the future. Judgement for those who have been identified as 'saved' (past tense) could have already been judged. which again is why I make the distinction between judgement day and the day of your specific judgment.

It misunderstands Luke 10 by treating Jesus’ answer as a “plan of salvation,” when He was actually exposing the lawyer’s self‑righteousness.

you are working with verse fragments.... so keep going. How did Jesus illustrate their self righteousness? He showed them that even though that they thought that they where saved, (By performing works of the Holy Spirit) they clearly where not, and that this revelation of their unforgiven sins was revealed "On that day."

Matthew 7:21–23 is not Jesus saying, “No one is saved until Judgment Day.”
What he IS saying is, “Not everyone who claims to know Me actually does."

Which means what exactly? It means that there are many who believe they are saved, but Christ Himself tells them "on the day" they are judged, that HE NEVER Knew Them.

"22 Many will say to me on that day,....
.....23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

When was this revelation given to these who thought they where saved but where lost?
"On THAT day." /On the day of their judgement. Even though they thought they where saved.

What was happening "On that day?" The only thing Jesus was doing according to His own account is judging man all of man Kind.

What Matthew 7 actually teaches
Some people profess faith (“Lord, Lord”).

Not just profess faith. They think they are saved because of the seemingly apparent works they where able to do through the Holy Spirit.

Some people perform religious works (prophesying, miracles).

If we had members of the church who could legitimately do these things here and now we would rally and up lift and praise these men for having the power of the Holy Spirit just like the apostles did. There is no greater sign than to perform miracles/signs and wonders like these men did.

Yet Jesus says He never knew them — meaning they were never saved at all.

EXACTLY! This means that Salvation is not a matter of doing great deeds. Or even following plans of salvation, or professing faith, or any other 'work' that we can do. That salvation is decided by Christ. This decision is made known to most of us (not all) "On that day."

This passage is about false believers, not about the timing of salvation.

 

[Drich]

If you thought you where saved but found out you where not on the day of judgement, then it would infact be about the timing of one's salvation, as Jesus points out that MANY will come to Him assuming that they where saved, but will find out that they are not.

Scripture repeatedly says believers already have eternal life now,
“He who believes has eternal life.” — John 6:47

Clearly these men in mat 7 believed that they believed n Jesus as our Lord, which is why they cried out to Him "Lord,Lord" (To repeat a word in that culture was to emphatically express confidence and assurance.) These men KNEW who Jesus was. yet Jesus says He never knew them.

“We have passed from death to life.” — 1 John 3:14

Dealing in verse fragments is cultish, especially when you marry two fragments together to create an arguement the bible does not make on it's own.

Let's look at the passage in context:
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

John is referring to those who will be saved. Those who will make the journey from death to life. verse 15 conclusively shows that not all who would count themselves as among the saved will make this journey. (Those who hate their brothers/those who do not have the luke 10 love requirement of loving your neighbor as yourself.)

“By grace you have been saved.” — Ephesians 2:8

Man, another verse fragment.. Paul is speaking to those who have been saved. But clearly not everyone who hears his words will be saved as Jesus points out that there will be Many on that day who will cry out to Him "Lord, Lord.." will He acknowledge.

This passage in eph 2 when read in full context is 100% supporting what I have said all along:
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about. 10 God has made us what we are. In Christ Jesus, God made us new people so that we would spend our lives doing the good things he had already planned for us to do.

Your belief, your baptism, your confession of faith are all works. These works do not earn your way into Heaven. These works are merely symptom of the love that is required for salvation.

“There is now no condemnation.” — Romans 8:1
If salvation only occurs at Judgment Day, none of these verses make sense.

verse fragment.
wow you totally misrepersented this passage:
8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

Brother if you have to change the intended meaning of a passage to support your argument, it means your argument is invalid.

This passage says "There is no condemnation of those who are in christ." Everything I have said from the beginning has stated this.

Matthew 7 is a warning against self‑deception, not a denial of present salvation.

You wrote, “Jesus can judge you in this life as being saved like the thief on the cross… or condemn you as He did the Pharisees…”
This is not what Scripture teaches. The thief on the cross, Jesus did not “judge him early.” Jesus responded to the thief’s faith: “Today you will be with Me in paradise.” — Luke 23:43

Jesus told the thief on the cross will be with Him in paradise that very day. He did not say the rest of us will also be with with Him in paradise that same day the thief would be. Again, we witnessed the thief's judgement on the cross.. a judgement we will all face one day, in this life or the next. That said we will not all receive the same promise of being with Christ in paradise on that same day we are judged.

 

[Drich]

This is instant salvation, not early judgment.

It's literally both.

The Pharisees, Jesus did not condemn them to hell in Matthew 7. He condemned their blasphemy (Matthew 12), but He did not pronounce final judgment.

He kinda did:
Mat 12: 36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Verse 37 is a judgment, as he pronounces sentence for their words, and Their words condemned them.

Final judgment happens at the last day (John 12:48).

Again Most people are judged on the last day Just like I've been saying all along, but there are exceptions.

Salvation happens the moment a person believes (John 5:24).

Again the men in mat 7 clearly believed, but where adjudicated as 'evil doers' and where banished into Hell despite their belief. Jesus maybe saying that At the point in a saved person's life where He first believed, is the point where Jesus decided to save them, but again not everyone who simply believes knows Jesus/Is saved.

Condemnation is already present for unbelievers (John 3:18), but final judgment is future.

You are adding a time line not present in the verse you are quoting.Your model tries to merge salvation and judgment into one event. Scripture keeps them distinct.Then please show me book chapter and verse that makes this distinction, as so far you have only been able to provide commentary on verse fragments you have taken out of context and married with other fragments.When I quote scripture like Mat 7 I am using the whole passage to demonstrate that we are judged and saved from condemnation. Can you quote a block of text that supports your assumption?You said, “once Jesus judges you saved, you can never lose salvation”This is partly true — but your reasoning is incorrect.Believers are secure because:They are sealed (Ephesians 1:13–14).They are kept by God’s power (1 Peter 1:5).

Christ will lose none of those given to Him (John 6:39).

Everything you said here works with everything I said without changing a word.

But this security is based on union with Christ, not on a “judgment event.”

I agree, but where we differ is I point out that the "Union with Christ" comes after judgement. Again same principle that you have concluded, the only difference is in my interpretation of scripture salvation is not a work. it is not something you can do. It is not something you have the finial word on. It is not something you can initiate. I am saying; that No man can come to the Father but through the approval/judgement of Jesus the Christ. You are saying that we have the ability to decide if and when we are saved.

If this where possible then the men who cried out 'Lord, Lord" in mat 7 would be infact saved. The fact that Jesus said they thought they where saved, but where not in His eyes, and then He/Jesus overrode their beliefs/assumption of salvation by condemning them to Hell disproves your idea that salvation happen at one's belief, and it not only supports the idea that salvation happens at judgement, it proves that not everyone who claim's belief in Jesus will be judged 'saved.' Which again puts salvation in the hands/judgement of Christ and not in our works.

Your model says: “We are not saved until Jesus judges us saved.”
Scripture says: “We are saved the moment we believe, and judgment later reveals it.”

It says in John 3 we are saved because we believe, not when we believed

You Said, "prayers, sacraments, creeds, and repentance “have nothing to do with salvation”
What Scripture actually teaches
Salvation is not earned by works (Ephesians 2:8–9).
But salvation produces works (Ephesians 2:10).

100% yes.

These things do not cause salvation — but they accompany it.

Your statement implies, “None of these matter at all.”
“They matter as evidence of genuine faith.”

If you love your spouse, and your spouse loves you, you both share in house hold chores with out being asked, spend time doing things the other love but you/they do not care for; and or all of the other little things, that make marriage work is your love for your spouse/the love they have for you based on those things that you do? Is your love the result of work you two put into your marriage?

Meaning if I came in one day and did everything you did but better, would your spouse's love for you shift and be redirected at me?

Or are the things you do just evidence evidence of your love?

Are the 'little things" just an outward expression of a qualifying love that makes your wife, YOUR wife? Meaning, You do those things not because you must to earn that love your spouse has for you, but you do those things because You love your spouse, and know that is what would make them happy?

So, If your wife can not be won over (Stop loving you) because someone else does a better job, then your love is not based on your works, but your works are evidence of your love. Meaning it is possible for someone to do all of the things/works that your spouse loves when you do them, but still not earn her love?

Then why would it be possible for someone to do all of the things/works you have compiled in your list of salvation, and assume they have the love requirement that makes those works meaningful?

In mat 7's "Lord, Lord" passage after the believers who were condemned compile a list of Holy Spirit lead works. Jesus says "away from me evil doers I Never Knew You."

Meaning despite thier works that a healthy strong loving relationship would have, they where missing the Love component that Jesus in luke 11 says we need inorder to be saved.

You wrote: “Jesus said all you must do is love God and neighbor to be saved.”
This is not what Jesus meant. Why Jesus answered this way,

The lawyer asked, “What must I do to inherit eternal life?”
He wanted a works‑based answer.

Jesus responded with the Law, not the Gospel.
Why?
Because the Law exposes sin.
“By the law comes knowledge of sin.” — Romans 3:20
“No one will be justified by the law.” — Galatians 2:16
Jesus was showing the lawyer,
“If you want to earn eternal life, you must love perfectly — which you cannot do.”
This is why the lawyer immediately tries to justify himself (Luke 10:29).

Luke 10 is not a salvation formula. It is a diagnosis of human inability

It is Jesus telling us Without the love Jesus endorses in luke 10, salvation is not possible.

You said, “if you need baptism or communion to love God, then you must do them to be saved at judgment”
This is backwards.
Scripture teaches:
Baptism and communion are commands, not optional.

Is it possible to follow commands and not be approved/loved by God?
Yes the Temple preist found this out all too well with their confrontations with Christ.

But they are responses to salvation, not prerequisites.
Your model makes salvation depend on, “Whatever you personally feel you need to do to love God.”

My model requires one to love God with all of your heart, Mind, Spirit and strength. Then ove your neighbor as yourself. Just like Jesus points out. Because without this love requirement, nothing you can say do or believe will save you.

Put it this way. if you do not believe this to be the top requirement for salvation, then please provide the name of a biblical example of someone who is or will be welcomed into God's Kingdom who does not love Him with all of their ability to do so and their neighbor as them selves. If you can't provide a single example of someone who Does not love God or their neighbor as described in luke 10. Then know that makes this love requirement the definitive requirement for salvation.

Because i can give biblical examples of those who do not are not baptized, who did not take the sacerments, who did not pray the sinner prayer, etc etc.. Heck I can even provide name of people in the bible who never believed in Jesus or proclaimed Him as the Son of God, yet the bible says they will be apart of God's kingdom/Heaven.

 

[Drich]

Scripture makes salvation depend on Faith in Christ alone.
Salvation has Three Tenses,
Past — You have been saved Justification (Ephesians 2:8)
Present — You are being saved Sanctification (1 Corinthians 1:18)
Future — You will be saved Glorification (Romans 13:11)
Judgment Day does not determine salvation
It reveals it.

As I said, you are hung up on the term judgement day. My focus is not on this day, but on taking power from the church and our 'beliefs' and putting the decision back into the nail scared hands of Christ. In that Christ decides if and when we are saved, not our actions. Your belief, your baptism, your confessions of faith are all 'works' that without the required love mean nothing. as it is possible to confess that Jesus is "Lord, Lord" and still not be saved.

“The Lord knows those who are His.” — 2 Timothy 2:19

100% consistent with everything I said here.

“He who believes has eternal life.” — John 6:47

Another verse fragment.. maybe we oughta look at that verse fragment back in it's original context:
44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

“We have passed from death to life.” — 1 John 3:14

This is another verse fragment that was married to several others to change what scripture is actually saying. Verse fragment theology (Generally speaking) is a big red cult flag.

1 john 3:11 For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

This passage is supporting everything I have said concerning the vital importance of having and maintaining the love requirement that luke 10 speaks about. Because without love for God and for each other we are lost. The "WE" in verse 14 have nothing to do with those whom follow your plan of salvation. The 'we' are those who Love God with all of their ability to do so and to love our neighbors as ourselves. "We" can look forward to the day of our salvation with assurance because "we" are not like cain, who belonged to the evil one. "We" who love God can also be assured of our future salvation Because the world who is lost will hate us. This hatred is an indication that we WILL Be saved when we are judged.

Believers already possess eternal life.

Paul in romans 13 seems to disagree:

11And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

Paul is clearly saying we are more close to being saved, (Meaning they are not saved yet) than when we first believed.

Note how I quoted the whole verse. and if you would like to see the whole chapter here is a link:

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 13 - New International Version

Submission to Governing Authorities - Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[OMC]

As I said, you are hung up on the term judgement day. My focus is not on this day, but on taking power from the church and our 'beliefs' and putting the decision back into the nail scared hands of Christ. In that Christ decides if and when we are saved, not our actions. Your belief, your baptism, your confessions of faith are all 'works' that without the required love mean nothing. as it is possible to confess that Jesus is "Lord, Lord" and still not be saved.

100% consistent with everything I said here.

Another verse fragment.. maybe we oughta look at that verse fragment back in it's original context:
44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

This is another verse fragment that was married to several others to change what scripture is actually saying. Verse fragment theology (Generally speaking) is a big red cult flag.

1 john 3:11 For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

This passage is supporting everything I have said concerning the vital importance of having and maintaining the love requirement that luke 10 speaks about. Because without love for God and for each other we are lost. The "WE" in verse 14 have nothing to do with those whom follow your plan of salvation. The 'we' are those who Love God with all of their ability to do so and to love our neighbors as ourselves. "We" can look forward to the day of our salvation with assurance because "we" are not like cain, who belonged to the evil one. "We" who love God can also be assured of our future salvation Because the world who is lost will hate us. This hatred is an indication that we WILL Be saved when we are judged.



Paul in romans 13 seems to disagree:

11And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

Paul is clearly saying we are more close to being saved, (Meaning they are not saved yet) than when we first believed.

Note how I quoted the whole verse. and if you would like to see the whole chapter here is a link:

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 13 - New International Version

Submission to Governing Authorities - Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God...

www.biblegateway.com

I am so excited to address each of these my friend. Thank you for actually take the time to read it. Please be patient, this may take a few lol.