Well, I disagree. Obedience to Christ means obeying a higher law, one that exceeds the written code. You can believe what you want, but my belief system doesn't include obedience to the law.
The Rejection of Obedience
- Thread starter Delvianna
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How is there a distinction? How does obeying Christ become higher than what God (the Father) instituted to Moses? There is nothing that Christ said, distinguishes apart from the law. There isn't 2 law concepts. So I'd like to know where you get the idea that what Christ says is apart from what the Father said, and how that is higher.
They want only His salvation, but not His lordship. The Bible says we must accept Him as both Lord and Savior, not just Savior:
Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
Peter affirms that Jesus' identity as both Lord and Savior. So you can't have Jesus as just your Savior, He must be your Lord too.
Philippians 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
God the Father Himself declares that His Son is Lord. So it's better to get saved and acknowledge Jesus as Lord and obey Him now, rather than have your eyes opened later and know you made a mistake not making Him your lord and not obeying Him.
Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
So salvation is actually tied to making Jesus your Lord and not just Savior alone.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?"
Jesus Himself challenges superficial acknowledgment of His lordship, indicating that true discipleship involves obedience.
This post isn't for the veterans who have already hardened their hearts and refuse to obey God, but more for new people to encourage them to obey God.
Obeying God is quite easy if you submit to the Holy Spirit and let Him cause and empower you to obey God. His presence at work in you to cause you to obey Him shows you truly belong to God.
Agreed, and why not obey the Law of Moses simply because we love God?
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment." Matthew 5:21-22
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:27-28
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two." Matthew 5:38-41
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you." Matthew 5:43-44
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:27-28
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two." Matthew 5:38-41
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you." Matthew 5:43-44
All Christians know we should cooperate with the love of our Lord Christ's Holy Spirit rather than stifle Him.
Sorry I did not realize this truth is not obvious/known by some people.
can you give an example of legalism masked as obedience so I can understand what you mean? thank you.
Yes....
To be obedient is to live in the freedom we have in Christ Jesus... this only comes from a person who knows they are secure in Christ,
for those who do not believe salvation is secure obedience is legalism and self-righteousness, it cannot be otherwise.
When you use the expression “the Law,” what do you mean, exactly? It’s one thing if you mean the Ten Commandments, but it’s something else altogether if you mean the whole of the Mosaic law, including circumcision, the dietary laws, and keeping the Sabbath (Saturday).
Remember James the Just’s ruling at the Council of Jerusalem, aka the Apostolic Council, in Acts 15. Gentile Christians are required to observe the Mosaic law only in a very limited form.
Okay, take those words and apply them to the law. Show me any one of those verses that are not in the law. He gives a full understanding of the law, but it's not anything different to the law. Your statement of "doesn't include obedience to the law" makes it sound like there are two laws and the Fathers is obsolete.
Christ said - "You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I." - John 14:28
If the Father is greater than Christ, how can you make the claim Christ's is a "higher law" and that the Father's law is void? Because by your reasoning, it would have to be void if it "doesn't include obedience to the law".
Let me take all your examples:
1) Matthew 5:21-22 is quoting Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17 while repeating Leviticus 19:17-18 ""You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself." Which makes it not new.
2) Matthew 5:27-28 is just repeating Exodus 20:17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife" and Deuteronomy 5:21- "Neither shall you desire your neighbor's wife". Again, not a new concept.
3) Matthew 5:38-41 is quoting Exodus 21:24 and is drawing from Leviticus 19:18 "You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge" which again isn't a new concept as well as the spirit of the point of what Christ was getting at is also found in Exodus 23:4-5 about kindness towards an enemy.
4) Matthew 5:43-44 - His answer is from Leviticus 19:18 - Love your neighbor as yourself or Proverbs 25:21-22 - "If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink."
Everything Jesus says points back to the law already written, it's nothing new, just re-worded or expounded on so others get the point.
There's laws that don't apply to everyone. Like a man doesn't get a period, so it's unnecessary to follow the rules regarding women. So when I say the law, yes I mean the Mosaic law that the Father gave to Moses. So if there is a law that doesn't apply, then you don't have to follow it. Like, the gentiles and circumcision.
I do not understand why people would think obedience is not important, and not required, and not obtainable.
But it is because they will not let go of the flesh but still want to enjoy sin and say they cannot abstain from sin so they can enjoy the flesh.
That is why they love OSAS so they can believe they can never fall so they can enjoy sin.
Which the Bible says they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God and do not come to the truth.
There are hypocrites who make sin their top priority.
These people hold unto sin and is not repentance and the blood of Christ does not wash their sins away.
And those who are led of the Spirit who make God's ways their top priority.
If they sin they correct it and move forward.
Some people will sin with the attitude God is merciful and will forgive so they do not put in the effort to abstain from sin avoiding responsibility.
But this is wrong and dangerous.
It is no different with the Old Testament and the New Testament which they were cut off if they did not obey.
Which if they do not continue in the goodness of God they will be cut off.
A Spirit led person will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh and God will give them an escape from temptation.
Those that deny the power thereof have not started in the goodness of God.
1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Obeying is better than sacrifice.
If a person does not obey to turn from sin the sacrifice of Jesus does not apply.
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry, because a person is asserting their own authority to do it their way.
People who do not obey fall in to this situation.
You hold unto sin this is you which you become your own idol.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Of course we have to obey for we have to do the will of God to allow the Spirit to lead us to be Christlike.
People that deny the power thereof enjoying sin are doing their own will.
Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil not enjoy it for if they intentionally sin holding on to sin then punishment will come upon them.
Which it is a fearful thing to fall in to the hands of the living God.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luk 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
Act 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.
Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
These same people will also say there is no fear of the Lord in the New Testament.
But believing in OSAS they think they cannot fall despite their sins so there is nothing to fear for there will not be punishment.
But Jesus said fear God for if you do not obey He can cast you to hell.
There is no difference between the covenants for if you do not obey not shunning sin you will be cut off.
People who deny the power thereof were not part of the program to begin with.
They were holding on to sin before Christ, when they accepted Christ, and after, taught by a preacher they cannot abstain from sin, or it does not affect them, damning souls instead of saving them.
But it is because they will not let go of the flesh but still want to enjoy sin and say they cannot abstain from sin so they can enjoy the flesh.
That is why they love OSAS so they can believe they can never fall so they can enjoy sin.
Which the Bible says they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God and do not come to the truth.
There are hypocrites who make sin their top priority.
These people hold unto sin and is not repentance and the blood of Christ does not wash their sins away.
And those who are led of the Spirit who make God's ways their top priority.
If they sin they correct it and move forward.
Some people will sin with the attitude God is merciful and will forgive so they do not put in the effort to abstain from sin avoiding responsibility.
But this is wrong and dangerous.
It is no different with the Old Testament and the New Testament which they were cut off if they did not obey.
Which if they do not continue in the goodness of God they will be cut off.
A Spirit led person will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh and God will give them an escape from temptation.
Those that deny the power thereof have not started in the goodness of God.
1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Obeying is better than sacrifice.
If a person does not obey to turn from sin the sacrifice of Jesus does not apply.
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry, because a person is asserting their own authority to do it their way.
People who do not obey fall in to this situation.
You hold unto sin this is you which you become your own idol.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Of course we have to obey for we have to do the will of God to allow the Spirit to lead us to be Christlike.
People that deny the power thereof enjoying sin are doing their own will.
Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil not enjoy it for if they intentionally sin holding on to sin then punishment will come upon them.
Which it is a fearful thing to fall in to the hands of the living God.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luk 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
Act 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.
Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
These same people will also say there is no fear of the Lord in the New Testament.
But believing in OSAS they think they cannot fall despite their sins so there is nothing to fear for there will not be punishment.
But Jesus said fear God for if you do not obey He can cast you to hell.
There is no difference between the covenants for if you do not obey not shunning sin you will be cut off.
People who deny the power thereof were not part of the program to begin with.
They were holding on to sin before Christ, when they accepted Christ, and after, taught by a preacher they cannot abstain from sin, or it does not affect them, damning souls instead of saving them.
Acts 15:
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
...
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood."
...
27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell.
30 So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31 The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message.
So Gentile Christians don't have to follow the Torah except the four that the Holy Spirit specifically listed. We are also to obey Jesus and He gave us two laws that embody the 10 commandments. God simplified it all for us.
Those aren't the only ones, otherwise you'd have to disregard the ones Jesus mentioned. If it was only those 4, then Christ would have preached on those 4 alone, but he didn't. The reason these 4 are mentioned is because the Disciples considered the law and interpreted it see what the gentiles had to follow and what they didn't. There was a discrepancy about it, so this was just a clarification factor but wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list of only those 4, because again, what about the ones Christ mentioned? They don't apply?Acts 15:
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
...
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood."
...
27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell.
30 So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31 The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message.
So Gentile Christians don't have to follow the Torah except the four that the Holy Spirit specifically listed. We are also to obey Jesus and He gave us two laws that embody the 10 commandments. God simplified it all for us.
I really liked your saying, "No genuine Christian would reject authentic obedience". That would be so beautiful. I just don't think it is always the case. In my understanding, even genuine Christians could reject obedience.
For example - As an ex-Hindu, if I give in to the pressure of having food offered to idols when I know in my heart God doesn't want me to have it, so I could be a witness for Him, I am being disobedient. I may repent later, but when I needed to be obedient, I wasn't.
Another example: A Christian that loves the Lord may fall into temptation and do something he/she shouldn't have done. The Word tells us to flee from temptation, but this person chose not to flee but fight it.
Remember though, there is a distinction between falling to temptation, and a life categorized by sin. In your example, if you repent later for it, then you're fine. Repentance means to turn from sin. It's a constant rejection of sin and a fight for walking in righteousness. Everyone is going to stumble, even if someone purposefully chooses to commit a sin. Stumbling doesn't assume it's an accident, it just that... you fell. But if you pick yourself back up and repent for it later, that's what matters. So someone who rejects obedience, is living their life full of sin without repentance.
It's like, if you walked up to your best friend and punched them in the face. How many times you going to punch them without repentance before they walk away from you? Repeated sin draws us away from God (Isaiah 59:2), but repentance and God's grace, brings us back (Joel 2:12-13). It's all about love. If you love God, you'll want to do right by Him, just like if you love your friend, you'd want to do right by them. You may get into fights, but love always tries to repair the relationship as you try to not continually break it.
1. When we want to be blessed by God but are not willing to pay the price we need to to be His follower.
2. When it's all about us. How we feel, what we want, what's happening to us.
3. When we don't learn from the three Hebrew boys, Daniel, David, Esther, Joseph, and Paul among many others.
In short, when we are self-focused instead of Jesus-focused, we can easily fall into disobedience.
God gives us a new heart, we are delighted to obey Him.
If not, maybe one does not have the new heart.
If not, maybe one does not have the new heart.
You didn't read what I wrote carefully - I did mention Jesus' laws, but you can follow all the rest if you want. I'm going to obey God on what He said.