The Rejection of Obedience

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DavidLamb said:
Did Paul deserve the power, and the grace that God told him was sufficient for him?
Click to expand...
The point you and others keep missing?
The meaning is getting twisted.

Grace is God's power that makes us able to become what is deserving of God's favor!

I am what I am by the grace of God.​
​
1 Corinthians 15:10​

It is what grace makes us to become that will be what merits God's favor!

Grace in itself is not unmerited favor.
Grace is God's means to place us in a position, so He can show us His favor!

First, grace must develop in us a new capacity for His favor and blessings!
If we keep walking in grace and finding more and more truth?
The blessings will come.

God will not pour into a cup that which it can not hold and contain His favor.
A cup able to contain what it is He wishes to give us.

If we continue growing more and more in grace and truth?
God then pours more, and eventually our cup runs over!

God wants our cup to become what merits His favor!
Grace is the only means to make our cup able to merit what we naturally could not merit.

Big difference!
 
Genez said:
First off. God's mercy is mercy.

What you have come to believe is what many men teach today.
I used to hear it too when first starting out.
Many are still trying to figure out what grace actually is.


But, what about what the Bible says?
Please read what Scripture tells us.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​
rest on me. 2 Corinthians 12:9​


But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. ​
On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, yet not I, but the grace of God ​
that was with me. 1 Corinthians 15:10​
​

Do the Scriptures agree with what some men have told us that it is God's mercy?

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​
rest on me. 2 Corinthians 12:9​

It took me a while to adjust to this.

grace and peace ..........
Click to expand...
He's not calling grace power, its a separate topic. It's like saying, my love is sufficient because my strength will make you better.

1 Corinthians is talking about because of what God did with Paul (God's grace of forgiveness), that grew love for God which is why he worked harder.

This is getting off topic but I think you're misunderstanding what you're reading. We will have to agree to disagree on this.
 
Delvianna said:
He's not calling grace power, its a separate topic. It's like saying, my love is sufficient because my strength will make you better.

1 Corinthians is talking about because of what God did with Paul (God's grace of forgiveness), that grew love for God which is why he worked harder.

This is getting off topic but I think you're misunderstanding what you're reading. We will have to agree to disagree on this.
Click to expand...
Paul is most definitely calling grace God's power!

The power to comprehend the truth comes from God's grace.
 
2Christ said:
I agree we obey because we love God and its the choice we make, GOD gave us that choice, he clearly said so;

Deu 30:14 But the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may obey it.

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before you today life and goodness, as well as death and disaster.

Deu 30:16 For I am commanding you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, statutes, and ordinances, so that you may live and increase, and the LORD your God may bless you in the land that you are entering to possess.

Deu 30:17 But if your heart turns away and you do not listen, but are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them,

Deu 30:18 I declare to you today that you will surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, so that you and your descendants may live.
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So many people ignore the old testament and act like what it says no longer applies. But Christ says, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." - Matthew 24:35 Which includes all of the "old testament". Which also makes it still applicable.
 
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Delvianna said:
The power to comprehend the truth comes from God Himself. Not an aspect of his actions.
Click to expand...
Grace comes from God Himself.

​
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17​
​
.......
 
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Genez said:
The point you and others keep missing?
The meaning is getting twisted.

Grace is God's power that makes us able to become what is deserving of God's favor!

I am what I am by the grace of God.​
​
1 Corinthians 15:10​

It is what grace makes us to become that will be what merits God's favor!4
Click to expand...
Power sometimes results from God's grace, but that is not what "grace" means. I don't know NT Greek, but Strong's Concordance has this entry for the Greek word "charis", which is translated into English as "grace":

"G5485
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
Total KJV occurrences: 156"

(The word translated "power" is "dunamis", from which we get words like dynamo and dynamite).
Genez said:
Grace in itself is not unmerited favor.
Grace is God's means to place us in a position, so He can show us His favor!

First, grace must develop in us a new capacity for His favor and blessings!
If we keep walking in grace and finding more and more truth?
The blessings will come.
Click to expand...
That doesn't seem to fit with Ephesians 2, where sinners who were "dead in trespasses and sins" had been saved by grace. Not put into a position to receive God's favour.
Genez said:
God will not pour into a cup that which it can not hold and contain His favor.
A cup able to contain what it is He wishes to give us.

If we continue growing more and more in grace and truth?
God then pours more, and eventually our cup runs over!

God wants our cup to become what merits His favor!
Grace is the only means to make our cup able to merit what we naturally could not merit.

Big difference!
Click to expand...
As I see it, (please correct me if I am wrong) we both agree that by nature we don't deserve anything good from God. You seem to say that grace makes us deserving, whereas I say that grace refers to God doing good to the underserving.
 
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Genez said:
Grace comes from God Himself.

​
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17​
​
.......
Click to expand...
While I agree with that statement, I don't agree with your foundational premise. But this is off topic, so I'd like to agree to disagree.
 
DavidLamb said:
Power sometimes results from God's grace, but that is not what "grace" means. I don't know NT Greek, but Strong's Concordance has this entry for the Greek word "charis", which is translated into English as "grace":

"G5485
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
Total KJV occurrences: 156"

(The word translated "power" is "dunamis", from which we get words like dynamo and dynamite).

That doesn't seem to fit with Ephesians 2, where sinners who were "dead in trespasses and sins" had been saved by grace. Not put into a position to receive God's favour.

As I see it, (please correct me if I am wrong) we both agree that by nature we don't deserve anything good from God. You seem to say that grace makes us deserving, whereas I say that grace refers to God doing good to the underserving.
Click to expand...

Strong's Concordance has limits.
We need active exegesis on the context of how a word is being used to get the intended meaning.

Yes!

Grace can CAUSE all the effects you cited with Strong's.
But, what grace actually is?

Please. Look at how Paul described the grace that God gave him!

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​
Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​
rest on me. 2 Corinthians 12:9​

Here is a balanced reference...

​
In Christian theology, grace is often understood as the unmerited favor of God towards humanity. ​
However, grace also functions as a divine empowerment that enables believers to live in accordance ​
with God's will. This aspect of grace is evident throughout the Scriptures and is crucial for understanding ​
the Christian life and sanctification process. ​

We need to know this!
 
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