The Rejection of Obedience

[Jesusgirl777]

Remember though, there is a distinction between falling to temptation, and a life categorized by sin. In your example, if you repent later for it, then you're fine. Repentance means to turn from sin. It's a constant rejection of sin and a fight for walking in righteousness. Everyone is going to stumble, even if someone purposefully chooses to commit a sin. Stumbling doesn't assume it's an accident, it just that... you fell. But if you pick yourself back up and repent for it later, that's what matters. So someone who rejects obedience, is living their life full of sin without repentance.

It's like, if you walked up to your best friend and punched them in the face. How many times you going to punch them without repentance before they walk away from you? Repeated sin draws us away from God (Isaiah 59:2), but repentance and God's grace, brings us back (Joel 2:12-13). It's all about love. If you love God, you'll want to do right by Him, just like if you love your friend, you'd want to do right by them. You may get into fights, but love always tries to repair the relationship as you try to not continually break it.

I agree. There is a distinction between falling into temptation and living in continual sin.

What I tried to explain from my perspective was about genuine Christains disobeying God, Christians who love God. It is possible for a genuine Christian to disobey God because we all mess up. So it's important to keep our focus on Jesus and not on ourselves or others.

 

[passion84god]

3. When we don't learn from the three Hebrew boys, Daniel, David, Esther, Joseph, and Paul among many others.

I would add:

"When we don't learn from Jesus."

Hebrews chapter 5

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Jesus learned obedience by the things that he suffered, and no servant is above his master. No matter who kicks against this truth, he is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. Thankfully, there is cleansing available through the blood of Christ if we mess up and genuinely repent, 1 Peter 1:2, but obedience ought to be our goal, and it is attainable if we are truly subject to the Holy Spirit and being led by him.​

 

[rewriter]

Obedience or lack thereof is a sign of a person's maturity. Think about a 2-year-old, they show great maturity when they defiantly break their parent's rules. The same with Christians who choose not to follow God's rules, they are showing their great maturity. One should not follow the rules because the rules exist, one should follow the rules because they were set to assist people in achieving proper ends. Yes, I can get from one place to another faster if I do not obey the traffic laws and speed or ignore stop signs and signals, but if I ignore these things I also place myself and others at greater danger and possibly fail to achieve what I wish to achieve., especially the more I undertake such actions.

 

[Jesusgirl777]

I would add:

"When we don't learn from Jesus."

Hebrews chapter 5
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Jesus learned obedience by the things that he suffered, and no servant is above his master. No matter who kicks against this truth, he is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. Thankfully, there is cleansing available through the blood of Christ if we mess up and genuinely repent, 1 Peter 1:2, but obedience ought to be our goal, and it is attainable if we are truly subject to the Holy Spirit and being led by him.​

Absolutely. Lord Jesus is our prime example. Thank you.

 

[passion84god]

Well, I disagree. Obedience to Christ means obeying a higher law, one that exceeds the written code. You can believe what you want, but my belief system doesn't include obedience to the law.

I get what you're saying, but I suspect that your belief system does include some obedience to the law. For example, are these two commandments, which are a part of the written code or the law, applicable to you and all Christians?​

Ephesians chapter 6

1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise)
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

James chapter 2

8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

 

[Delvianna]

You didn't read what I wrote carefully - I did mention Jesus' laws, but you can follow all the rest if you want. I'm going to obey God on what He said.

I did read it. But he gave more than 2 and told others to follow more than that when he quoted the Torah. So my question was tied to what about all of what he said, not a limited amount.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I did read it. But he gave more than 2 and told others to follow more than that when he quoted the Torah. So my question was tied to what about all of what he said, not a limited amount.

*Shrug* Okay.

 

[Delvianna]

Obedience or lack thereof is a sign of a person's maturity. Think about a 2-year-old, they show great maturity when they defiantly break their parent's rules. The same with Christians who choose not to follow God's rules, they are showing their great maturity. One should not follow the rules because the rules exist, one should follow the rules because they were set to assist people in achieving proper ends. Yes, I can get from one place to another faster if I do not obey the traffic laws and speed or ignore stop signs and signals, but if I ignore these things I also place myself and others at greater danger and possibly fail to achieve what I wish to achieve., especially the more I undertake such actions.

That's a great way to view it.

 

[BartholomewB]

There's laws that don't apply to everyone. Like a man doesn't get a period, so it's unnecessary to follow the rules regarding women. So when I say the law, yes I mean the Mosaic law that the Father gave to Moses. So if there is a law that doesn't apply, then you don't have to follow it. Like, the gentiles and circumcision.

Who gets to decide which laws "apply" and which ones don't? Am I allowed to decide for myself which laws apply to me and which ones I'm going to disregard? Is everybody free to choose?

Also, please bear in mind that the Apostolic Council (Acts 15) wasn't about theology. It wasn't saying what Gentiles needed to do to be justified or sanctified or saved. Its only purpose was to draw up a practical set of criteria for each synagogue to decide whether or not a Gentile would be allowed to continue worshiping there.

 

[HeIsHere]

Obedience or lack thereof is a sign of a person's maturity. Think about a 2-year-old, they show great maturity when they defiantly break their parent's rules. The same with Christians who choose not to follow God's rules, they are showing their great maturity. One should not follow the rules because the rules exist, one should follow the rules because they were set to assist people in achieving proper ends. Yes, I can get from one place to another faster if I do not obey the traffic laws and speed or ignore stop signs and signals, but if I ignore these things I also place myself and others at greater danger and possibly fail to achieve what I wish to achieve., especially the more I undertake such actions.

For those who are under grace (believers in Christ and Christ in them) are choosing bondage over freedom, that is their immaturity in Christ.

 

[Delvianna]

Who gets to decide which laws "apply" and which ones don't? Am I allowed to decide for myself which laws apply to me and which ones I'm going to disregard? Is everybody free to choose?

Also, please bear in mind that the Apostolic Council (Acts 15) wasn't about theology. It wasn't saying what Gentiles needed to do to be justified or sanctified or saved. Its only purpose was to draw up a practical set of criteria for each synagogue to decide whether or not a Gentile would be allowed to continue worshiping there.

Self explanatory. So unless you live in historical times Israel, you can disregard all the civil laws. Or if you come across a dead body, you have to be sprinkled with the blood of a red heifer, but there's no temple so you can disregard that. I don't think it's that difficult to figure out which ones are still applicable.

 

[HeIsHere]

Who gets to decide which laws "apply" and which ones don't? Am I allowed to decide for myself which laws apply to me and which ones I'm going to disregard? Is everybody free to choose?

Also, please bear in mind that the Apostolic Council (Acts 15) wasn't about theology. It wasn't saying what Gentiles needed to do to be justified or sanctified or saved. Its only purpose was to draw up a practical set of criteria for each synagogue to decide whether or not a Gentile would be allowed to continue worshiping there.

Exactly and the law was never given to the gentiles.

As well, scripture teaches us we are not under the law but under grace.

 

[GinaLoveAguilar]

I embrace obedience to God's Commandments, Precepts, and Traditions. I can't always follow them but I agree with the idea.

 

[GinaLoveAguilar]

The main reason I have such a hard time following the Precepts is because I am old (66), and my memory is just terrible now. It always was but it's really bad now.

 

[Delvianna]

The main reason I have such a hard time following the Precepts is because I am old (66), and my memory is just terrible now. It always was but it's really bad now.

God knows we will never be perfect and He is abundant in grace and love. I'm sure that as long as you are trying, that's what matters. Keep walking with Him, he will never guide you wrong! And you always have the Holy Spirit to remind you

 

[rewriter]

The main reason I have such a hard time following the Precepts is because I am old (66), and my memory is just terrible now. It always was but it's really bad now.

You are not old, you are still a youngster, at least younger than I am.

 

[Delvianna]

Exactly and the law was never given to the gentiles.

As well, scripture teaches us we are not under the law but under grace.

The gentiles were grafted in and followed the Law when they converted and then were accepted as natural born. Being under grace doesn't get rid of the law. Salvation was always through belief and grace, even Abraham believed and was accounted to righteousness but thats not an excuse to disregard God's rules.

 

[biblestudent78]

I've noticed over the decades such a negative reaction to the idea of obedience which tends to stem from the OSAS crowd.

For sake of argument, let's take salvation off the table because I don't want to turn this into a salvation debate. I want the sole focus to be about obedience.

Why, is there such a rejection for obedience? Like, if you bring it up, people just get auto-defensive and start yelling about works. But what happened to not doing something you shouldn't do, because you literally just shouldn't do it?

If God is likened to the aspect of a Father, why do we grow up as kids following our parents, but when it comes to the Father, it's like.. "I don't have to follow the rules."

Throughout scripture from old testament to new, God has been the same. He HATES sin. The message for repentance is prevalent from start to finish in scripture. Hell, the tribulation period is literally due to sin and how abundant it is everywhere. So why the reaction? Why such a distinct defensive response to something that God wants/likes? Why such the overt rejection of it?

Delvianna,
While there are probably as many answers as there are people, I believe the very concept of obedience is both misunderstood and rejected for "doctrinal" reasons.

When most people think of obedience in their Hebrew Bible, they tend to focus exclusively on the man-God relationship. Sinless God and sinful mankind always in tension. In reality, a significant component of discussion about obedience in the Hebrew Bible is about the person to person obedience. From beginning to end, the God of the Hebrew Bible required that obedience also meant how you treated your neighbor. Prophet after prophet excoriated people in the name of God to return to God's demand for social justice where people (usually the rich and powerful) were predatory on the poor and the needy. The second most important commandment in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament is to love your neighbor as yourself amplified in the story of the good samaritan and the entire chapter in Matthew 25.

For the first 1,500 years of Christianity, obedience was a prominent obligation. Even after Martin Luder's important input that focused on faith as the basis of salvation as opposed to works-based salvation he still maintained that the saved will "bear fruit in demonstration of their salvation," or they never had saving faith to begin with. What struck Protestant theology in the head was it's incorporation into the competing political power games and wars of the follow centuries. Protestant theology has always asked the wrong question, "What do you believe?" Usually meaning are you part of our sect or not? Thus what you believe became the centerpoint of Christian Protestant theology. The question of who are you becoming was unimportant. Believe right subtly enabled you to live any damned way to liked....just so long as you believed "right." Thus a 100 deep blanket of sectarian Dogmas covered the Protestant landscape.

As an example of how important it is to Protestant theology that living the Christian life is only about church attendance and tything. Paul's extensive treatise on love being the objective of the Christian in 1st Corinthians where he clearly tells us that faith alone is can leave you spiritually dead. Or Paul's checkup from the neck up for what a Christian life looks like in Galatians 5. His description of what living in the Spirit of Christ results in your day to day life is usually just winds up a wall plaque. The least preached or taught chapter in the entire New Testament is an entire chapter of Jesus teaching what obedience looks like in Matthew 25.

Many claim to see the bible as a map to heaven, but they refuse to leave the comfort of home to go there. 21st Century Protestant and Non-Denominational Christianity has achieve one major objective, they have become great marketers of dirt cheap salvation. Nod your head to a 60 second pulpit pray and you get a guaranteed ticket to heaven. Perhaps that is why we all intuitively know that we could not pick Christians out of any crowd. From the crowd at the bar or the crowd at the game or any crowd. When obedience is not a requirement there is no such thing as a Christian life. They only thing left is a Christian wish. We preach "let Jesus into your heart" but refuse to give Him control over the rest of our body. The observation of the old country Baptist preacher that "that the praying knee and the dancing foot don't grow on the same leg," seems quaint and amusing. It harkens back to a time, perhaps in small Christian communities where there was something distinct about living a Christian life.

 

[Churchgoer]

God's rules are to bless us, not to burden us.
Start with 10 commandments, every one is a blessing. If don't obey, there is consequences.

 

[Delvianna]

Delvianna,
While there are probably as many answers as there are people, I believe the very concept of obedience is both misunderstood and rejected for "doctrinal" reasons.

When most people think of obedience in their Hebrew Bible, they tend to focus exclusively on the man-God relationship. Sinless God and sinful mankind always in tension. In reality, a significant component of discussion about obedience in the Hebrew Bible is about the person to person obedience. From beginning to end, the God of the Hebrew Bible required that obedience also meant how you treated your neighbor. Prophet after prophet excoriated people in the name of God to return to God's demand for social justice where people (usually the rich and powerful) were predatory on the poor and the needy. The second most important commandment in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament is to love your neighbor as yourself amplified in the story of the good samaritan and the entire chapter in Matthew 25.

For the first 1,500 years of Christianity, obedience was a prominent obligation. Even after Martin Luder's important input that focused on faith as the basis of salvation as opposed to works-based salvation he still maintained that the saved will "bear fruit in demonstration of their salvation," or they never had saving faith to begin with. What struck Protestant theology in the head was it's incorporation into the competing political power games and wars of the follow centuries. Protestant theology has always asked the wrong question, "What do you believe?" Usually meaning are you part of our sect or not? Thus what you believe became the centerpoint of Christian Protestant theology. The question of who are you becoming was unimportant. Believe right subtly enabled you to live any damned way to liked....just so long as you believed "right." Thus a 100 deep blanket of sectarian Dogmas covered the Protestant landscape.

As an example of how important it is to Protestant theology that living the Christian life is only about church attendance and tything. Paul's extensive treatise on love being the objective of the Christian in 1st Corinthians where he clearly tells us that faith alone is can leave you spiritually dead. Or Paul's checkup from the neck up for what a Christian life looks like in Galatians 5. His description of what living in the Spirit of Christ results in your day to day life is usually just winds up a wall plaque. The least preached or taught chapter in the entire New Testament is an entire chapter of Jesus teaching what obedience looks like in Matthew 25.

Many claim to see the bible as a map to heaven, but they refuse to leave the comfort of home to go there. 21st Century Protestant and Non-Denominational Christianity has achieve one major objective, they have become great marketers of dirt cheap salvation. Nod your head to a 60 second pulpit pray and you get a guaranteed ticket to heaven. Perhaps that is why we all intuitively know that we could not pick Christians out of any crowd. From the crowd at the bar or the crowd at the game or any crowd. When obedience is not a requirement there is no such thing as a Christian life. They only thing left is a Christian wish. We preach "let Jesus into your heart" but refuse to give Him control over the rest of our body. The observation of the old country Baptist preacher that "that the praying knee and the dancing foot don't grow on the same leg," seems quaint and amusing. It harkens back to a time, perhaps in small Christian communities where there was something distinct about living a Christian life.

Absolutely beautifully stated! Thank you for your response. Very eloquently put.