The Rejection of Obedience

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I've noticed over the decades such a negative reaction to the idea of obedience which tends to stem from the OSAS crowd.

For sake of argument, let's take salvation off the table because I don't want to turn this into a salvation debate. I want the sole focus to be about obedience.

Why, is there such a rejection for obedience? Like, if you bring it up, people just get auto-defensive and start yelling about works. But what happened to not doing something you shouldn't do, because you literally just shouldn't do it?

If God is likened to the aspect of a Father, why do we grow up as kids following our parents, but when it comes to the Father, it's like.. "I don't have to follow the rules."

Throughout scripture from old testament to new, God has been the same. He HATES sin. The message for repentance is prevalent from start to finish in scripture. Hell, the tribulation period is literally due to sin and how abundant it is everywhere. So why the reaction? Why such a distinct defensive response to something that God wants/likes? Why such the overt rejection of it?
Very good post I have noticed this same thing. The 'not of works' is immediately parroted. What is so perplexing is that nobody in the Bible teaches against works. Not even Paul rightly understood. The controversy was about the believing Pharisees requiring gentile converts to be circumcised according to the law of Moses or they cannot be saved. Acts 15 talks about this. That is the works that Paul is talking about. Paul is not saying feeding the hungry is going to get you cut off from grace. All will be judged according to works, as the Bible clearly teaches.

What is also odd is that part of obedience is NOT doing something as you pointed out, so is NOT stealing a work as well? The whole discussion about works is so sad, I don't know who deceived the clergy into teaching this to the people who then parrot it forward.

To recap: We are saved by grace through faith, yes. Not from the law of Moses. The problem is in thinking that faith means agreeing to certain things, that is the faith that even the devil has according to James. If you want to read about saving faith, read Hebrews chapter 11.

"By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days." Modern day workaphobes would claim Jericho fell by the works of man cause they had to DO something. Yet the Bible teaches it was by faith, because faith is faithfulnes, is obedience, is belief, is all of that. It is living the Christian life.
 
The gentiles were grafted in and followed the Law when they converted and then were accepted as natural born. Being under grace doesn't get rid of the law. Salvation was always through belief and grace, even Abraham believed and was accounted to righteousness but thats not an excuse to disregard God's rules.

To live under the law (there are one unit, 613 laws) is to try to live in our own righteousness, however, to live under grace, walk in the Spirit, the Law of Liberty is to live and lean into the righteousness of Christ and live by faith.

It is one or the other, it cannot be both, the NT is quite clear on this.

10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."
11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."
12But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them."
13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us — for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree" —
14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:10-14
 
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Delvianna,
While there are probably as many answers as there are people, I believe the very concept of obedience is both misunderstood and rejected for "doctrinal" reasons.

When most people think of obedience in their Hebrew Bible, they tend to focus exclusively on the man-God relationship. Sinless God and sinful mankind always in tension. In reality, a significant component of discussion about obedience in the Hebrew Bible is about the person to person obedience. From beginning to end, the God of the Hebrew Bible required that obedience also meant how you treated your neighbor. Prophet after prophet excoriated people in the name of God to return to God's demand for social justice where people (usually the rich and powerful) were predatory on the poor and the needy. The second most important commandment in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament is to love your neighbor as yourself amplified in the story of the good samaritan and the entire chapter in Matthew 25.

For the first 1,500 years of Christianity, obedience was a prominent obligation. Even after Martin Luder's important input that focused on faith as the basis of salvation as opposed to works-based salvation he still maintained that the saved will "bear fruit in demonstration of their salvation," or they never had saving faith to begin with. What struck Protestant theology in the head was it's incorporation into the competing political power games and wars of the follow centuries. Protestant theology has always asked the wrong question, "What do you believe?" Usually meaning are you part of our sect or not? Thus what you believe became the centerpoint of Christian Protestant theology. The question of who are you becoming was unimportant. Believe right subtly enabled you to live any damned way to liked....just so long as you believed "right." Thus a 100 deep blanket of sectarian Dogmas covered the Protestant landscape.

As an example of how important it is to Protestant theology that living the Christian life is only about church attendance and tything. Paul's extensive treatise on love being the objective of the Christian in 1st Corinthians where he clearly tells us that faith alone is can leave you spiritually dead. Or Paul's checkup from the neck up for what a Christian life looks like in Galatians 5. His description of what living in the Spirit of Christ results in your day to day life is usually just winds up a wall plaque. The least preached or taught chapter in the entire New Testament is an entire chapter of Jesus teaching what obedience looks like in Matthew 25.

Many claim to see the bible as a map to heaven, but they refuse to leave the comfort of home to go there. 21st Century Protestant and Non-Denominational Christianity has achieve one major objective, they have become great marketers of dirt cheap salvation. Nod your head to a 60 second pulpit pray and you get a guaranteed ticket to heaven. Perhaps that is why we all intuitively know that we could not pick Christians out of any crowd. From the crowd at the bar or the crowd at the game or any crowd. When obedience is not a requirement there is no such thing as a Christian life. They only thing left is a Christian wish. We preach "let Jesus into your heart" but refuse to give Him control over the rest of our body. The observation of the old country Baptist preacher that "that the praying knee and the dancing foot don't grow on the same leg," seems quaint and amusing. It harkens back to a time, perhaps in small Christian communities where there was something distinct about living a Christian life.

sigh.
 

John 8​

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
 
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No, its a belief system. What do you believe is getting you to heaven. To live under the law is to say you believe the law gets you to heaven. Grace does. But that doesn't mean you chuck out the law and don't follow it. It's a misapplication of concepts to say that grace abolishes the law when Christ himself said he didn't come to do that.
 
Gotta be careful with Paul. He uses the word law in different ways. We are not under the law of Moses. We ARE under the law of Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:20-21
To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the Law, I became as one under the Law, though not being under the Law myself, so that I might gain those who are under the Law; to those who are without the Law, I became as one without the Law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might gain those who are without the Law.

There is also the "law of sin and death" Paul talks about. Can't even remember all of them but he uses the term in like 5 different ways. This is why Peter said what he did.

Think about it guys, all of these debated doctrines come from Paul, because people pit Paul against Jesus , James and the rest. By either doing the dispensational slight of hand and misinterpreting Paul thinking he had a whole different gospel. Or they are harmonizing incorrectly
 
I've noticed over the decades such a negative reaction to the idea of obedience which tends to stem from the OSAS crowd.

For sake of argument, let's take salvation off the table because I don't want to turn this into a salvation debate. I want the sole focus to be about obedience.

Why, is there such a rejection for obedience? Like, if you bring it up, people just get auto-defensive and start yelling about works. But what happened to not doing something you shouldn't do, because you literally just shouldn't do it?

If God is likened to the aspect of a Father, why do we grow up as kids following our parents, but when it comes to the Father, it's like.. "I don't have to follow the rules."

Throughout scripture from old testament to new, God has been the same. He HATES sin. The message for repentance is prevalent from start to finish in scripture. Hell, the tribulation period is literally due to sin and how abundant it is everywhere. So why the reaction? Why such a distinct defensive response to something that God wants/likes? Why such the overt rejection of it?
I'm not aware of any Christian who has a negative reaction to the idea of obedience. Of course, you didn't really define obedience, so it's hard to tell what exactly you mean.
 
No, its a belief system. What do you believe is getting you to heaven. To live under the law is to say you believe the law gets you to heaven. Grace does. But that doesn't mean you chuck out the law and don't follow it. It's a misapplication of concepts to say that grace abolishes the law when Christ himself said he didn't come to do that.

He fulfilled the law that is why we are under HIS grace/righteousness.
 
He fulfilled the law that is why we are under HIS grace/righteousness.
And what does fulfillment mean to you?

Let me just ask you this, do you believe that everyone who is under grace, means we can go rape and murder and it's fine? Are you advocating to not follow the law? Because it sounds like you are. It sounds like you have a perversion to something that is righteous. Jesus knew no sin. Which means, he was obedient to the law because sin is lawlessness. So how can you claim grace, and ignore Jesus saying we have to be more like him while simultaneously reject following the rules that make us more like Christ?
 
Gotta be careful with Paul. He uses the word law in different ways. We are not under the law of Moses. We ARE under the law of Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:20-21
To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the Law, I became as one under the Law, though not being under the Law myself, so that I might gain those who are under the Law; to those who are without the Law, I became as one without the Law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might gain those who are without the Law.

There is also the "law of sin and death" Paul talks about. Can't even remember all of them but he uses the term in like 5 different ways. This is why Peter said what he did.

Think about it guys, all of these debated doctrines come from Paul, because people pit Paul against Jesus , James and the rest. By either doing the dispensational slight of hand and misinterpreting Paul thinking he had a whole different gospel. Or they are harmonizing incorrectly

The point is we do not live according to the external law.
The new heart who is Christ Jesus within us does not need the law written on stone.

It is quite simple really.

1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you?
2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone.
3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

2 Cor. 3:1-3
 
No, its a belief system. What do you believe is getting you to heaven. To live under the law is to say you believe the law gets you to heaven. Grace does. But that doesn't mean you chuck out the law and don't follow it. It's a misapplication of concepts to say that grace abolishes the law when Christ himself said he didn't come to do that.

What is started in the Spirit continues by the Spirit.
 
And what does fulfillment mean to you?

Let me just ask you this, do you believe that everyone who is under grace, means we can go rape and murder and it's fine? Are you advocating to not follow the law? Because it sounds like you are. It sounds like you have a perversion to something that is righteous. Jesus knew no sin. Which means, he was obedient to the law because sin is lawlessness. So how can you claim grace, and ignore Jesus saying we have to be more like him while simultaneously reject following the rules that make us more like Christ?

sigh.
 
God's rules are to bless us, not to burden us.
Start with 10 commandments, every one is a blessing. If don't obey, there is consequences.
Churchgoer:
I believe you are under informed about what Jesus taught. There are two sets of 10 Commandments (words) but those are not from Jesus. Jesus commandments are all about WHO YOU become. Not necessarily what you "believe."
Jesus commandments take at least four forms.
  • Commands about the character of the new person “be this kind of new person”
  • Commands that define the heart of the new person
  • Commands for the new person to avoid
  • Commands related to our common mission
Character of the New Person

Be light – Let your light shine
Matt 5:16
Be salt Matt 5:17
Be a servant Matt 23:11
Be a reconciler Matt 5:23-24, 18:15-17
Be on guard against greed and sin Luke 12:15, Matt 26:41
Take sin very seriously (Matthew 5:29–30)
Be perfect (in love) Matt 5:48
Be forgiving Matt 18:21-22
Be repentant Matt 4:17
Be born again John 3:5
Be the person who will go the second mile Matt 5:41
Be the person who can turn the other cheek Matt 5:39
Be the person who always gives to those who ask Matt 5:42
Be the person who will always loan their stuff Matt 5:42
Be the person who seeks Gods Kingdom first Matt 6:33
Be the person who honors their marriage Mark 10:6-9
Be the person who takes communion Matt 26:26-27
Be poor in spirit Matt 5:3
Be meek Matt 5:5
Be the person who hungers and thirsts for righteousness Matt 5:6
Be merciful Matt 5:7
Be pure of heart Matt 5:8
Be peace makers 5:9
Be the person who comes to Jesus for rest Matt 11:28

Heart of the New Person
Love and pray for your enemies
Matt 5:44-46
The Golden Rule Matt 7:12
Love God Matt 22:37-38
Love your neighbor as yourself Matt 22:39
Love one another as I have loved you John 13:34, John 15:12, John 15:17
Love and invite the poor into your life Luke 14:12-14

Show your love by:
Feeding the hungry and quenching the thirsty
Matt 25:35
Inviting in the stranger Matt 25:35
Clothing the naked Matt 25:36
Visiting the sick Matt 25:36
Visiting those in prison Matt 25:36

Things the New Person should avoid

Make no oaths – don’t swear
Matt 5:34, 37
Don’t judge others Matt 7:1
Don’t lust Matt 5:27-30
Don’t fear those that can kill the body Matt 10:28
Don’t store up treasures on earth Matt 6:19

The Mission of the New Person
Find and enter the narrow gate
Matt 7:13-14
Ask God for more harvest workers Matt 9:37-38
Preach the Gospel Matt 28:19-20
Make disciples, baptize them and teach them to obey my commandments Matt 28:19-20
Let your light shine before all people (Matthew 5:16)
Be reconciled to one another (Matthew 5:23–24)
Take sin very seriously (Matthew 5:29–30)
 
It would be helpful if you just dropped the acronyms. Short of that, just make a point of typing them once the first time you use them IN EACH THREAD and include the acronym in brackets.

Like this (LT).

Thanks, and I am trying to remember to type out the words except for the acronyms everyone should know (OT, NT, GW, HS) plus the two I use most that I trust everyone knows by now: MFW (Moral Free Will) as the opposite of TULIP and GRFS (God's Requirement for Salvation) as the Christian Creed.
 
The law for Israel was supposed to have taught them their need for a Savior. Paul writes about the frustration he experienced trying to keep the law using his flesh (Romans chapter seven)
In Matthew 1:21, Jesus saves us from our sin, and in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being doers of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being doers of it. So the Law of God does not just teach us bout our need for a Savior but also teaches us the way that he is saving us. It would be contradictory for someone to want salvation from sin while not wanting to be a doer of the Law of God.

In Romas 7, Paul described the Law of God as being something that is the good that he wanted to do in contrast with describing the law of sin as being something that was causing us not to do the good that he wanted to do, so we need to be set free from the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God.

Christians are supposed to abandon the flesh in favor of the Spirit. This is a process of letting go of the selfishness that is at the core of our old nature and grow into the love (selflessness) of Christ. It is this love that is the fulfillment of the law.

By focusing on law and obedience, we focus on self and that elevates the flesh that frustrates our maturity. Christians have so much more available than the flesh, admonitions towards obedience tend to keep Christians as children.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
God has not commanded anything that is not in accordance with walking in the Spirit, but rather the goal of the Law of God is to teach us how to embody His character traits and His character traits are the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27), In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God who refuses to submit to the Law of God.

In Galatians 5:16-23, the desires of the flesh causing us not to do the good that we want to do is how Paul described his struggle with the law of sin in Romans 7. Moreover, Paul contrasts desires of the flesh with the desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of God while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's character traits that the Law of God was given in order to teach us how to embody. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in the Spirit/walk in obedience to the Law of God.

In 1 John 3:10, those who are not doers of righteousness in obedience to the Law of God are not children of God so indeed, focusing on being a doer the Law of God keeps Christians children of God.
 
The point is we do not live according to the external law.
The new heart who is Christ Jesus within us does not need the law written on stone.

It is quite simple really.

1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you?
2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone.
3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

2 Cor. 3:1-3
Is 2 Cor written on ink?
 
The point is we do not live according to the external law.
The new heart who is Christ Jesus within us does not need the law written on stone.

It is quite simple really.

1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you?
2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone.
3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

2 Cor. 3:1-3
You seem to be saying it would be wrong for a Christian to obey the Ten Commandments. Or have I misunderstood you here?
 
Why such the overt rejection of it?

Perhaps the rejection is rejection of salvation by works rather than a perceived rejection that people are running around like pagan sailors searching for the ultimate sin to commit so that grace may abound more.
 
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