The Rejection of Obedience

[GWH]

The Gospel requires us to obey the Torah (Matthew 4:15-23), so teaching that it not a requirement is what servers the Gospel. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of the Torah is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it and it would be contradictory for someone to be saved from not being a doer of the Torah while they are not a doer of it.

The Scripture you cited teaches the exact opposite of what you said. It is wrong for Messianic Jews to believe obeying the Torah is how they are saved.

Yes, the OT/Torah prepared the way for the NT Gospel and sometimes the OT moral laws of Moses overlap/are reaffirmed by the new command of Jesus (love).

However, the issue per NT teaching is that Torahism or obedience of laws is the old/childish/immature/inferior way of describing the relationship between God and believers.

Christianity is the new/mature/superior and thus superseding way per the NT (e.g. Heb. 7:11-10:10) is cooperation/consensus/mutual submission/love of the Holy Spirit.

If Torahists would speak of walking in the Spirit instead of obeying the Torah (applying John 3:30),
they could avoid the charge of seeming to be Pharisaic/legalists and there would be no problem.

 

[Dave123]

the perfect thing there as you put it is a corruption of scripture, it simply means that he loved money more than GOD himself that is breaking the first commandment but it does not change the fact that Jesus did tell us to Keep the commandments, never mentioned perfectly but people use this twisted argument to get out of it, You cannot Fool GOD. trying to devise scripture against the truth is not a good idea.

Hebrews 10:9-14 ...then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has *perfected* forever those who are being sanctified.

 

[Dave123]

The Law of God came with instructions for what to do when His children sinned, so it did not require perfect obedience. If we needed to have perfect obedience, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience.

Why did Jesus need to be the Lamb without blemish? The reason that we do not need to have perfect obedience is because we trust in the One who was perfectly obedient, Jesus.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

According to Galatians 5:14, everyone who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to Jesus loving our neighbor for us.

And love does not replace the Law, love is a summery of the Law. Do the positive (Love) and you'll also do the negative (thou shall not-Law) by default. Jesus said the same thing. It's not a justification statement, it's a statement for those striving to be Christlike. consider "Oh Galatians , who has bewitched you?"

In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so if Jesus had fulfilled the law for us instead of graciously teaching us to fulfill it, then he would have been removing his gift of salvation from us, so thankfully he did not do that.

You could not do this unless you were already justified.

Only the doers of the Law of God will be justified (Romans 2:13), so being judged by the law is much preferable than perishing. In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before Him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so the reason why our salvation requires us to be a doer of the Law of God has nothing to do with trying to earn it as the result, but rather Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

EVIDENCE! It's not a difficult concept.

 

[Soyeong]

Why did Jesus need to be the Lamb without blemish? The reason that we do not need to have perfect obedience is because we trust in the One who was perfectly obedient, Jesus.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20)

The issue of the way to acquire righteousness is different than the issue of what describes the behavior of the righteous. The only way to become righteous is through faith in Christ apart from being required to have first done enough righteous works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to be righteous is to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of Moses (1 John 3:4-7, Isaiah 51:7). We can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of Moses (Romans 4:1-5), but rather it was given in order to describe the behavior of the righteous as it describes the behavior of Christ, so it is what we get to experience by being given the gift of righteousness through faith. Paul also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the Law of Moses will be declared righteous (Romans 2:13), so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of Moses other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous by faith apart form works also upholds it (Romans 3:28-31). In other words, we become someone who has faith, someone who will be declared righteous, and someone who is a doer of the Law of Moses all at the same time and anyone who is not one of those is also not the others, but we do not become righteous as the result of our our obedience.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was declared righteous (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he was a doer of righteous works (Genesis 18:19), and that he believed God, so he obeyed the command to offer Isaac, so the faith by which he was declared righteous was also embodied through his works, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his works. In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as they embodied his faith but not insofar as they were earning it as a wage.

And love does not replace the Law, love is a summery of the Law. Do the positive (Love) and you'll also do the negative (thou shall not-Law) by default. Jesus said the same thing. It's not a justification statement, it's a statement for those striving to be Christlike. consider "Oh Galatians , who has bewitched you?"

Everything in the Law of Moses is either in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them. If someone thought that they just needed to love God or their neighbor, so they did not need to refrain from committing idolatry or favoritism, then they would have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love God and our neighbor and the same is true for everything else commanded in the Law of Moses. The greatest two commandments are much easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us the rest of the Law of Moses in order to flesh out what it looks like to correctly obey them. Someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the rest of the Law of Moses because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. Moreover, in Deuteronomy 6:4-7, the way to obey the greatest commandment in the Bible is essentially by being zealous for teaching obedience to the Law of Moses.

EVIDENCE! It's not a difficult concept.

The only way to acquire a character trait is through faith, but what it means to have a character trait is to be a doer of works that embody that trait. So the only way to become courages is through faith, but it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works. Someone being a doer of courageous works is what it means to be courageous, not evidence that they are courageous. The same is true for acquiring righteousness and every other character trait.

 

[Soyeong]

The Scripture you cited teaches the exact opposite of what you said.

Please explain how it teaches the opposite of what I said.

It is wrong for Messianic Jews to believe obeying the Torah is how they are saved.

While we can't become saved as the result of our obedience to the Torah, being a doer of the Torah is intrinsically part of the concept of being saved from not being a doer of it and it is contradictory for someone to want salvation from not being a doer of the Torah while not wanting to be a doer of it.

Yes, the OT/Torah prepared the way for the NT Gospel and sometimes the OT moral laws of Moses overlap/are reaffirmed by the new command of Jesus (love).

Legislator give laws in accordance with their understanding of morality, so to claim that some of God's laws are not moral laws is to claim that God made a moral error about what ought to be done when He gave those laws and is therefore to claim to have greater moral knowledge than God. Everything in the Torah is either in regard to how to love God or our neighbor, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the rest of the Torah.

However, the issue per NT teaching is that Torahism or obedience of laws is the old/childish/immature/inferior way of describing the relationship between God and believers.

The NT notably does not describe the Torah in that way but rather it describes it as being God's instructions for how to have an intimate relationship with Him on the deepest level.

Christianity is the new/mature/superior and thus superseding way per the NT (e.g. Heb. 7:11-10:10) is cooperation/consensus/mutual submission/love of the Holy Spirit.

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in the Spitit/howq to walk obedience to the Law of Moses and Christianity is about following Christ's example, not about refusing to follow him.

If Torahists would speak of walking in the Spirit instead of obeying the Torah (applying John 3:30),
they could avoid the charge of seeming to be Pharisaic/legalists and there would be no problem.

I regularly speak about walking in the Spirit. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies f God who refuse to submit to the Torah. You are taking John 3:30 out of context.

 

[Soyeong]

IMO, the word "Torah" has been habitually thrown out and misrepresented as the law. I've engaged in a light study of The Hebrew and even the introductory exposure to it reveals a great deal. Each letter is also a picture as well as a number and no other written language offers this 'three that perfectly agree' component to it so that, if understood correctly, the meaning of "Torah" encompasses so much more than just the law. This is the "picture of it" that I see, roughly translated considering the clumsiness of translating spirit into the natural; the righteous cross the ruler breathed out.

"Torah" means "instruction", though it can also be translated as "law" when it refers to instructions that we are obligated to follow.

This is an example of throwing the word Torah around while misrepresenting it. I don't have the energy to expend at the moment to address all the error. I'll leave that fun for someone that might have the time to spare.

The Bible uses "Torah" to refer to the Law of Moses, so I am not misrepresenting it. In Deuteronomy 30, it forms the basis for the New Covenant by prophesying about a time when the Israelites would return from exile, God would circumcise their hearts, and they would return to obedience to the Torah, which is what Jeremiah 31:33 and Ezekiel 36:26-27 are in regard to.

 

[Soyeong]

Good Morning Dave;

Dave, I think the question has shifted away from what Jesus actually said. You know, The Jesus who is the son of God, having all authority in Heaven and on earth? Yes that man, the main character in the bible with God whose words are eternal life!
I did not ask whether anyone keeps the commandments perfectly. None of us has, except Jesus. We all need God's mercy.My question was much simpler: Did Jesus teach those who want eternal life to keep God's commandments?

Jesus answered that Himself. "And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16-17, ASV). That is Jesus' answer, not mine.

Then notice that Jesus immediately began quoting from the Ten Commandments. "Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." (Matthew 19:18-19, ASV). If Jesus believed the commandments no longer mattered, this was the perfect time to say so. Instead, He pointed directly to them. You quoted, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

Let's read that in context. Jesus was speaking about salvation being impossible by human effort alone. He was not saying obedience no longer matters. In fact, only a few verses earlier He had already told the rich young ruler to keep the commandments.

Jesus also said: If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. (John 14:15, ASV)

He did not say, "You cannot keep them, so do not worry about them." He said that love for Him is shown by obedience.

Again He said: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him. (John 14:21, ASV)

And again: If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15:10, ASV)

Notice that Jesus presents Himself as the example. He kept His Father's commandments and calls us to do the same.

Jesus also warned that merely calling Him "Lord" is not enough. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Luke 6:46, ASV)

Jesus concluded the Sermon on the Mount with these solemn words: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21, ASV)

The apostles whom Jesus personally chose taught exactly the same: And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:3-4, ASV) So no, I am not saying we earn salvation by perfect obedience. Jesus never taught that.

I am saying exactly what Jesus taught: We are sinners who need God's grace, and those who truly believe in Him repent, follow Him, and keep His commandments. Obedience is not the cause of salvation, but neither is it optional. Jesus made obedience one of the marks of a true disciple.

My concern is very simple. Whenever there seems to be a conflict between someone's interpretation and the plain words of Jesus, I choose to stay with Jesus, I explained why at the beginning of my reply to you. What we have to do is simple Dave, it's to try to keep them as best we can and Ask God to help and he certainly will.

The way to love God is by embodying His character traits, such as the way to love justice is by being a doer of justice, the way to love holiness is by being a doer of God's instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. In other words, the goal of everything that God has instructed in the Torah is to teach us how to love different aspects of God's character traits, which is why the Bible repeatedly states in both the OT and the NT that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments. The Son is the radical of God's glory and the exact likeness of his character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how walk in obedience to the Torah, so the way to love the Son is exactly the same as the way to love the Father. In John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, if we don't love him, then we will not obey his teachings, and that his teachings are not his own but that of the Father, and in John 15:10, he used a parallel statement to equate his commands with those of the Father. Similarly, the way to know the Father is by embodying His character traits in obedience to the Torah (Exodus 33:13), which is exactly the same as the way to know the Son (Matthew 7:23, 1 John 2:6, 1 John 3:4-6), and which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3).

 

[Mem]

"Torah" means "instruction", though it can also be translated as "law" when it refers to instructions that we are obligated to follow.


The Bible uses "Torah" to refer to the Law of Moses, so I am not misrepresenting it. In Deuteronomy 30, it forms the basis for the New Covenant by prophesying about a time when the Israelites would return from exile, God would circumcise their hearts, and they would return to obedience to the Torah, which is what Jeremiah 31:33 and Ezekiel 36:26-27 are in regard to.

God differentiate the Torah He's speaking about in Jer 31:33 from the one He refers to in Jer 31:32. But you treat them as one and the same, which brings into question your skill in rightly dividing the word of truth. The rich young ruler claimed that He kept the law from his youth and Jesus said that He had sell all he had and give it to the poor, where's that in the law that you only know by reading the "Torah"?

 

[DavidLamb]

Just for your information Martin was born under his father's last name which was Luder. Martin later changed his name.
Martin Luther changed his last name from "Luder" to "Luther" in the mid-1510s. This change was significant for several reasons:

Scholarly Identity: By adopting the name "Luther," he distanced himself from his peasant roots and aligned himself with the scholarly and reformative movements within the Church

Meaning of the Name: The name "Luther" is thought to be derived from the Latin "Eleutherius," meaning "the free one," which resonated with his beliefs about Christian freedom

Historical Context: The name change had already occurred by the time he posted his Ninety-Five Theses in 1517, indicating its importance in his public identity as a reformer

According to Ancestry.com the German surname Luther does not mean "the free one":

"Luther Surname Meaning​

German: from a personal name composed of the ancient Germanic elements liud ‘people tribe’ or hlūd ‘clamoring famous’ + heri hari ‘army’."

According to an AI overview:

"The name Luther means "army of the people" or "famous warrior". It comes from ancient Germanic roots combining liut (people/tribe) and heri (army)"

 

[GWH]

Why did Jesus need to be the Lamb without blemish? The reason that we do not need to have perfect obedience is because we trust in the One who was perfectly obedient, Jesus.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.



And love does not replace the Law, love is a summery of the Law. Do the positive (Love) and you'll also do the negative (thou shall not-Law) by default. Jesus said the same thing. It's not a justification statement, it's a statement for those striving to be Christlike. consider "Oh Galatians , who has bewitched you?"



You could not do this unless you were already justified.



EVIDENCE! It's not a difficult concept.

Well, love summarizes moral laws, but the Levitical laws are NOT reaffirmed in the NT
and are specifically superseded per Heb. 7:11-10:10.

 

[rewriter]

Well, love summarizes moral laws, but the Levitical laws are NOT reaffirmed in the NT
and are specifically superseded per Heb. 7:11-10:10.

The Levitical laws were never for the entire people but only for the priestly class. It was an error by the Jews when they chose to apply them to everyone.

 

[GWH]

The Levitical laws were never for the entire people but only for the priestly class. It was an error by the Jews when they chose to apply them to everyone.

Yes, but the NT's main point is that the doctrine of works/legalism/salvation via obeying the Torah has been superseded
following its fulfillment by Jesus by faith in His atonement (Rom. 3:20-5:11) and filling with His HS.
Thus, Torahists are treading on thin ice.

 

[Vucesa]

The content of a gift can be the experience of getting to do something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to experience driving it, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it as the result. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done enough of those works in order to earn our salvation as the result, but rather we are intrinsically required to be a doer of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation. If someone is participating in that training, but then they reject the content of their gift of salvation by becoming a doer of what is ungodly and renouncing doing what is godly, righteous, and good, then they are no longer participating in that training.

You are teaching heresy, you are teaching salvation by works. I read your message history. I hope you embrace the Gospel and get saved.

The gift is eternal life and eternal life cannot end, otherwise it was not eternal. Jesus says the sheep will NEVER perish. So if you are a sheep you will never perish and will not follow a stranger.

 

[mailmandan]

there are NO examples in these links you think i did not check? you probably just Cannot give me one. am I right?

I gave you three examples of legalism from scripture. In Matthew 7:22, we see legalism in which these many people try to use their works as a resume to earn God's favor to receive eternal life. Jesus rejects them and with these words, "I never knew you; depart from me you who practice lawlessness," (which means they were never saved) and shows they were trusting in their works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. Their outward religious acts were not a substitute for a personal relationship with the Lord (John 17:3) or doing the will of the Father. (John 6:40) In context, Jesus warns about false prophets (Matthew 7:15) and contrasts good trees which bear good fruit with bad trees that bear bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17)

In Luke 18:9-12, Jesus exposes legalism and self-righteousness through the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. The Pharisee boasts in his strict religious performance, fasting twice weekly and tithing, while looking down on others, which shows how legalism breeds spiritual pride instead of a right relationship with the Lord. Luke 18:13 - And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you; this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

In Romans 10:1-4, Paul addresses legalism by explaining that religious zeal and rule following cannot earn a person with a right standing with God. He points out that Israel had a zeal for God but not according to knowledge. By trying to set up their own standard of righteousness through the law, they failed to submit to the righteousness of God and accept that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Those verses don't show that obedience is legalism.

Those verses show that seeking salvation by works (self-righteousness/legalism) is not obedience. Unlike genuine obedience from a right relationship with God is not legalism.

In Matthew 7:22-23, Jesus condemns those who practiced lawlessness while claiming to serve Him.

Claiming to serve Jesus apart from doing the will of the Father which instead results in practicing lawlessness stems from legalism.

In Luke 18:9, He condemns self-righteousness, not obedience. Neither passage says that keeping God's commandments is legalism.

So I'll ask again: what specific command of Jesus would become "legalism" if someone simply obeyed it? Jesus said, "If thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17, ASV) and "If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments." (John 14:15, ASV)

Self-righteousness is not obedience. Keeping the commandments becomes legalism when obedience shifts from a loving response to Jesus into a performance-based effort to earn God's favor, secure righteousness and measure one's spiritual superiority over others. Keeping the commandments is designed as an expression of love from a relationship with the Lord and not as a legalistic prescription to earn salvation.

In regard to Matthew 19:17, Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping even the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37) The rich young ruler confidently and (self-righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation (John 3:18) so he has not kept the commandments from his youth up. The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (Matthew 19:21-23). He went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

 

[2Christ]

I gave you three examples of legalism from scripture. In Matthew 7:22, we see legalism in which these many people try to use their works as a resume to earn God's favor to receive eternal life. Jesus rejects them and with these words, "I never knew you; depart from me you who practice lawlessness," (which means they were never saved) and shows they were trusting in their works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. Their outward religious acts were not a substitute for a personal relationship with the Lord (John 17:3) or doing the will of the Father. (John 6:40) In context, Jesus warns about false prophets (Matthew 7:15) and contrasts good trees which bear good fruit with bad trees that bear bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17)

In Luke 18:9-12, Jesus exposes legalism and self-righteousness through the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. The Pharisee boasts in his strict religious performance, fasting twice weekly and tithing, while looking down on others, which shows how legalism breeds spiritual pride instead of a right relationship with the Lord. Luke 18:13 - And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you; this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

In Romans 10:1-4, Paul addresses legalism by explaining that religious zeal and rule following cannot earn a person with a right standing with God. He points out that Israel had a zeal for God but not according to knowledge. By trying to set up their own standard of righteousness through the law, they failed to submit to the righteousness of God and accept that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Those verses show that seeking salvation by works (self-righteousness/legalism) is not obedience. Unlike genuine obedience from a right relationship with God is not legalism.

Claiming to serve Jesus apart from doing the will of the Father which instead results in practicing lawlessness stems from legalism.

Self-righteousness is not obedience. Keeping the commandments becomes legalism when obedience shifts from a loving response to Jesus into a performance-based effort to earn God's favor, secure righteousness and measure one's spiritual superiority over others. Keeping the commandments is designed as an expression of love from a relationship with the Lord and not as a legalistic prescription to earn salvation.

In regard to Matthew 19:17, Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping even the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37) The rich young ruler confidently and (self-righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation (John 3:18) so he has not kept the commandments from his youth up. The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (Matthew 19:21-23). He went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

Look Dan, ill know what you mean if you answer this question but will you?

Do you believe what Jesus said that to enter into life one has to Keep the Ten Commandments or not? just answer this one and I will know what you believe.

 

[Roger316]

Yes, but the NT's main point is that the doctrine of works/legalism/salvation via obeying the Torah has been superseded
following its fulfillment by Jesus by faith in His atonement (Rom. 3:20-5:11) and filling with His HS.
Thus, Torahists are treading on thin ice.

In addition to what you just said I would like to add this. According to Paul, salvation has always been by faith even in the OT times. He quotes Moses saying, "

For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:5-10​

​

You see, even during OT times, a person was saved by faith according to Moses.

 

[Roger316]

Look Dan, ill know what you mean if you answer this question but will you?

Do you believe what Jesus said that to enter into life one has to Keep the Ten Commandments or not? just answer this one and I will know what you believe.

We understand Jesus from within the passage where he said it. The rich young ruler appears in Matthew 19:16–22, Mark 10:17–22, and Luke 18:18–23, and in each account Jesus is speaking to a Jewish man living under the Old Covenant, obligated to the Mosaic Law as the covenant terms of life and blessing. This matters because Jesus’ command, “keep the commandments,” is not a universal gospel formula but a covenant‑specific response to someone who believes he has already fulfilled Torah righteousness. Jesus meets him on his own ground: a son of Israel appealing to the Law for eternal life. By directing him to the commandments—and then exposing the one command he cannot keep (wholehearted love of God expressed through relinquishing his wealth)—Jesus reveals that the Law, though good, cannot produce the righteousness required for the kingdom. The encounter only makes sense because the man is an Old‑Covenant Jew; Jesus is not giving a New‑Covenant path of salvation but using the Law to expose the man’s heart and drive him to the need for grace.

 

[2Christ]

The way to love God is by embodying His character traits, such as the way to love justice is by being a doer of justice, the way to love holiness is by being a doer of God's instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. In other words, the goal of everything that God has instructed in the Torah is to teach us how to love different aspects of God's character traits, which is why the Bible repeatedly states in both the OT and the NT that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments. The Son is the radical of God's glory and the exact likeness of his character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how walk in obedience to the Torah, so the way to love the Son is exactly the same as the way to love the Father. In John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, if we don't love him, then we will not obey his teachings, and that his teachings are not his own but that of the Father, and in John 15:10, he used a parallel statement to equate his commands with those of the Father. Similarly, the way to know the Father is by embodying His character traits in obedience to the Torah (Exodus 33:13), which is exactly the same as the way to know the Son (Matthew 7:23, 1 John 2:6, 1 John 3:4-6), and which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3).

Yes, Soyeong, God wants us to be Holy, just as He is Holy. Jesus was our example. Everything Jesus did was the Father's will, and we are to do the same by following what He has given us.

Certainly, those who truly love Him will be with Him at the return of Christ. Then Jeremiah's prophecy will be completely fulfilled, just as it was intended when he said:

“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My Law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people. No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.” (Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Jesus did begin the New Covenant, and in Mark 4 He described how the Kingdom would begin small and grow over time:

(30) Then He asked, “To what can we compare the Kingdom of God? With what parable shall we present it? (31) It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest of all seeds sown upon the earth. (32) But after it is planted, it grows to be the largest of all garden plants and puts forth great branches, so that the birds of the air nest in its shade.” (33) With many such parables Jesus spoke the word to them, to the extent that they could understand. (34) He did not tell them anything without using a parable. But privately He explained everything to His own disciples. (Mark 4:30-34)

It is evident today that many believe the Law has been "fulfilled," meaning "ended," according to their own interpretation. This directly contradicts what Jesus said, that the Law will not pass away (Matthew 5:17-19). Some also stubbornly deny that Jesus said to keep the Ten Commandments in order to enter eternal life (Matthew 19:17).

It is therefore evident from the fruit being shown that many have received only a small measure of the work of the Holy Spirit, while others have received a greater measure according to God's purpose. That is why some continue to reject what Jesus plainly taught. This is also why some of us must continue teaching our fellow men and women, calling them back into the Fold while there is still time. The time is now short. Events have already been set in motion, and from this point forward the world will continue to decline until the return of Christ.

 

[2Christ]

God differentiate the Torah He's speaking about in Jer 31:33 from the one He refers to in Jer 31:32. But you treat them as one and the same, which brings into question your skill in rightly dividing the word of truth. The rich young ruler claimed that He kept the law from his youth and Jesus said that He had sell all he had and give it to the poor, where's that in the law that you only know by reading the "Torah"?

what is the difference Mem? a change of the contents of the Covenant or rather disobedience VS. obedience through the Holy Spirit

 

[2Christ]

We understand Jesus from within the passage where he said it. The rich young ruler appears in Matthew 19:16–22, Mark 10:17–22, and Luke 18:18–23, and in each account Jesus is speaking to a Jewish man living under the Old Covenant, obligated to the Mosaic Law as the covenant terms of life and blessing. This matters because Jesus’ command, “keep the commandments,” is not a universal gospel formula but a covenant‑specific response to someone who believes he has already fulfilled Torah righteousness. Jesus meets him on his own ground: a son of Israel appealing to the Law for eternal life. By directing him to the commandments—and then exposing the one command he cannot keep (wholehearted love of God expressed through relinquishing his wealth)—Jesus reveals that the Law, though good, cannot produce the righteousness required for the kingdom. The encounter only makes sense because the man is an Old‑Covenant Jew; Jesus is not giving a New‑Covenant path of salvation but using the Law to expose the man’s heart and drive him to the need for grace.

you have it all wrong reverting to the Mosaic Law that was added later, the Covenant God declares IS the Ten Commandments, as written at lease 4 times in the O.T.

You also have it all wrong pitting Jews versus gentiles, Jesus was sent as a light to the gentiles also , all peoples, it is written. it is a grave error to say otherwise.