The Rejection of Obedience

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I do wonder why the rich young ruler went away from Jesus sad, with exact knowledge of the source of that sadness in his heart. I mean, I would think that if he chose his riches, then he'd go away happy that he still had them.
The cost of being a disciple of Christ is too great for most people. Majority of people want Heaven just to escape the torment of the lake of fire. 1 John 4:18 When Heaven is knowing God more. Corinthians 13:12 There is a reason God tests people, it's to show where their heart is.
 
The cost of being a disciple of Christ is too great for most people. Majority of people want Heaven just to escape the torment of the lake of fire. 1 John 4:18 When Heaven is knowing God more. Corinthians 13:12 There is a reason God tests people, it's to show where their heart is.
Wouldn't God lead your heart to bless and curse not (Ro 12:14)?
 
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It's been taught that Jesus was implying that the rich young ruler having disobeyed the 1st commandment when he told him to sell all that He had and follow Him, like Jesus was defining the first commandment more succinctly or something. So then, have the rest of us failed to keep that first commandment if we also do not do exactly that? The difference is the difference in stone and flesh. And flesh is made up of, what, 98% water isn't it? So, writing on the heart would be somewhat like writing on a pool of water however more tactile, so that you would continually be writing on it rather than copy from the stone and pasting on the heart.
i just think when the heart is mentioned its the soul or spirit that is implied, we have a body and A soul, anyways its my take on it

Blessings
 
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i just think when the heart is mentioned its the soul or spirit that is implied, we have a body and A soul, anyways its my take on it

Blessings
I think of it as the root of our "being", the core of our soul which consists of our spirit and body. Scripture speaks of the mind of the flesh and the mind of the spirit, and this is how it's possible that one and the same soul might either walk in the spirit or walk in the flesh and God has the capability to search our hearts (Jer 17:10; Rev 2:23) and can help us at that core (Ro 8:27) not just on the surface. And we don't just need but have to have the Spirit of God to come alongside ours to help in our weakness against the power of the flesh (Ro 8:26). I don't just want God's word, I want God's word to 'seep into' my being. I want to become one with it. With that said, "Every word that proceeds..." implies that I should be more concerned with finding the ever-flowing source of each word and interested in the 'freshest,' most current word, i.e. my daily bread. God's provision for me Today (Isa 55: 9-11).
 
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explain please.
God brings His word to our memory, if we ask Him for wisdom (James 1:15). That verse is given in the context of Rejoicing in Trials, where James 1:14 exhorts us to allow perseverance to finish its work. We can't know exactly what God would be pleased that we do, what is exactly right in His eyes, if we don't ask Him, and just go on our own judgment, so we should always be seeking His wisdom, in everything really and, ideally, every step, whether toward or away.
 
God brings His word to our memory, if we ask Him for wisdom (James 1:15). That verse is given in the context of Rejoicing in Trials, where James 1:14 exhorts us to allow perseverance to finish its work. We can't know exactly what God would be pleased that we do, what is exactly right in His eyes, if we don't ask Him, and just go on our own judgment, so we should always be seeking His wisdom, in everything really and, ideally, every step, whether toward or away.
God's wisdom guiding me in real time... I don't know why ;) but I came back to check on my citations...
And realize that I didn't cite them correctly, it should read James 1:5 and James 1:4, respectively. :giggle:
Yet another small triumphant victory in Him. :love:
 
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notice I always add proper scripture when I write posts, its important to do so, Jesus did say salvation van be lost look into the book of Life and why names can be taken out if it, I don't make this up its scripture, for this one ill let you find it it should be easy to find, the best way to know it is to search for it sometimes.

Citing scriptures is generally speaking insufficient, what is necessary is to understand what those scriptures mean withing the first principles of God's revelation to us.

And a first principle is saved is eternally saved..it is my contention it is not possible to interpret scripture correctly unless one has this first principle which is firmly established in scripture.

No one gains spiritual salvation by their deeds, nor does anyone loose their spiritual salvation by their deeds.

There is no debate, this is the foundation of the Gospel.
 
1 Peter 1:13-25
Therefore, preparing your minds for action,[b] and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile,18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; 24 for

“All flesh is like grass
and all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
and the flower falls,
25 but the word of the Lord remains forever.”
And this word is the good news that was preached to you.
One more time.

Why was He required to be without blemish?
 
Citing scriptures is generally speaking insufficient, what is necessary is to understand what those scriptures mean withing the first principles of God's revelation to us.

And a first principle is saved is eternally saved..it is my contention it is not possible to interpret scripture correctly unless one has this first principle which is firmly established in scripture.

No one gains spiritual salvation by their deeds, nor does anyone loose their spiritual salvation by their deeds.

There is no debate, this is the foundation of the Gospel.
What can i do, you have made a set of rules for yourself. I agree that no one gains spiritual salvation by their deeds, however what jesus said clearly demonstrates that one can lose salvation and not many would make it, i know it is uncomfortable but this is what Jesus said, not me.
 
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Forgiveness of sin alone does not make a person righteous. It only removes the guilt from the sin. The Law/justification requires a positive record of perfect obedience. The Law was given for the purpose of showing that it's impossible for us to not sin. The standards of righteousness that we are judges by are God Himself. The Law is a reflection of His holy character. He's flawless. Perfectly righteous and perfectly sinless. That's the standard that He must judge us by without compromising who He is. If He gives one sin a pass without that sin facing His justice, then He would no longer be just, then He also would no longer holy, then He also would no longer righteous. It all falls down and collapses. I said it before, God is constrained by His attributes. He cannot tell a lie, He cannot sin, He is just, not 'just' in a nice happy way, but just in a legal way, perfectly holy justice. That's why Jesus had to do it for us. We can't do it. It's impossible for us (the purpose of the Law is to show us that it's impossible for us). Jesus did it for us. What is impossible for man is possible for God. As a man, Jesus was perfect in His obedience, perfect in His righteousness, that's the righteousness of God that is imputed to us and legally justifies us. His perfect sinlessness made Him an acceptable sacrifice for us to atone for our sin. We cannot even atone for our own sin because we are blemished. Jesus does not fill in the blanks, He's the whole offering on our behalf. All Jesus, none of ourselves, that's the only way the offering passes God's perfect, holy and righteous standards, the Law. Knowing this, listen to Paul....


Romans 3:19-31 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Galatians 3:10-29 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Thankyou Jesus

Romans 10:1-13 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them." But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down from above) or, " 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
 
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Forgiveness of sin alone does not make a person righteous. It only removes the guilt from the sin. The Law/justification requires a positive record of perfect obedience. The Law was given for the purpose of showing that it's impossible for us to not sin. The standards of righteousness that we are judges by are God Himself. The Law is a reflection of His holy character. He's flawless. Perfectly righteous and perfectly sinless. That's the standard that He must judge us by without compromising who He is. If He gives one sin a pass without that sin facing His justice, then He would no longer be just, then He also would no longer holy, then He also would no longer righteous. It all falls down and collapses. I said it before, God is constrained by His attributes. He cannot tell a lie, He cannot sin, He is just, not 'just' in a nice happy way, but just in a legal way, perfectly holy justice. That's why Jesus had to do it for us. We can't do it. It's impossible for us (the purpose of the Law is to show us that it's impossible for us). Jesus did it for us. What is impossible for man is possible for God. As a man, Jesus was perfect in His obedience, perfect in His righteousness, that's the righteousness of God that is imputed to us and legally justifies us. His perfect sinlessness made Him an acceptable sacrifice for us to atone for our sin. We cannot even atone for our own sin because we are blemished. Jesus does not fill in the blanks, He's the whole offering on our behalf. All Jesus, none of ourselves, that's the only way the offering passes God's perfect, holy and righteous standards, the Law. Knowing this, listen to Paul....


Romans 3:19-31 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

...

You have written a long defense of a theological system, but you have not answered the words of Jesus. Instead, you continually appeal to Paul to reinterpret Christ. That is the very problem.

Jesus never taught that His perfect obedience would be legally transferred to believers while their own obedience became unnecessary. That doctrine cannot be found in the Gospels. What Jesus repeatedly taught was repentance, obedience, perseverance, and keeping God's commandments.

When asked how to enter life, Jesus did not say, "Trust in My imputed righteousness." He said, "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17)

When speaking about the final judgment, He did not say people would be accepted because His perfect record had been credited to them. He said, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

He then warned that many professing believers would be rejected because they practiced lawlessness (Matthew 7:23).

Those are the words of Christ. They are plain. They require no theological gymnastics.

You claim the Law was given simply to prove obedience is impossible. Jesus never taught that. Quite the opposite. He said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15). He also said, "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love." (John 15:10). Why would Jesus command what He knew His followers were never expected to do?

You present a gospel that says Christ obeyed so we do not have to. Jesus preached a gospel that says He forgives sinners, changes their hearts, and calls them to follow Him in obedience.

The New Covenant does not abolish God's law. God promised, "I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts." (Jeremiah 31:33). The law is moved from stone to the heart, not discarded.

Your argument repeatedly replaces the direct teachings of Jesus with later theological conclusions. That should concern every Christian. The Father did say, "This is My beloved Son... hear Him!" (Matthew 17:5).

You accuse those who obey Christ of trying to establish their own righteousness. Yet Jesus Himself commanded obedience. Are you now calling the teachings of Christ legalism?

Jesus never warned people about "works righteousness." He warned them about refusing to obey God. He warned about lawlessness. He warned about hearing His sayings and not doing them. He warned about servants who failed to do their Master's will. He warned that only those who endure to the end will be saved. Those are His warnings, not mine.

The tragedy is that many Christians know Paul's letters better than they know the words of Jesus. When Paul's writings are used to contradict Christ instead of harmonizing with Him, something has gone horribly wrong.

Peter himself warned that Paul's writings contain things that are hard to understand and that unstable people twist to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:15-17). That warning has proven true.

I will continue to stand with the clear words of Jesus. If a doctrine requires me to explain away His commands, redefine obedience, or make His warnings meaningless, I reject the doctrine and keep the words of my Lord.

Christ is the Judge. His words will judge us on the last day (John 12:48), not our ability to construct a theological system that excuses disobedience.

I pray that you stop filtering Jesus through Paul and instead read Paul through Jesus, because the Son of God is the One we were commanded to hear.
 
You should google your quote. I think that you'll find it interesting. But I get what you're saying, some of it was specifically for Aarons descendants, the priests, and does not carry over. Leviticus 19:18 for example, does. Love your neighbor as yourself. There were big arguments over who ones neighbor was. That's the reason for the parable of the good Samaritan. Anyways, that same idea is expressed and explained in Romans by Paul on how that positive command summarizes and fulfills the negative command of the Law.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 5:13-14 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

To your point, Christ's eternal Priesthood replaced the earthly Levitical priesthood. Animal sacrifices end because Jesus offers one final, perfect sacrifice for sin, as Hebrews 10:14 tell us. "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." The curtain in the Temple tears down the middle. The whole OT sacrificial system ended with Jesus' death. We no longer need the priesthood, as believers will have Jesus, the High Priest, living in them in the NT.

Paul spends the entire letter of Galatians telling us that we cannot justify ourselves by our works. What Paul means by "fulfilled" in Galatians 5:13-14 and Romans 13:8-10 is that the law is summarized and currently accomplished through active love, not that a person has achieved sinless perfection to earn justification. Paul argues that Christian freedom is expressed through serving others in love, which captures the ultimate goal and moral intent of the entire law.

On the other hand...

Galatians 3:10-14 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Deuteronomy 27:26)

In fact we are told that one sin pronounces us guilty before God, (James 2:10).
Dave123:
I see you you like to quote the bible where and as it fit your metanarrative. "Christ's eternal Priesthood replaced the earthly Levitical priesthood. However their Priesthood code did endure into the age of Christianity. Their code of "the Just will live by faith"
Romans 1:17: This verse states, "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" This emphasizes that faith is foundational to righteousness and salvation.

Galatians 3:11: Here, it is reiterated that "the just shall live by faith," highlighting the importance of faith in the life of believers

Hebrews 10:38: This verse also quotes the phrase, stating, "But My righteous one will live by faith; and if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him." This underscores the necessity of perseverance in faith

Theological Implications
Faith as a Way of Life: The phrase suggests that living justly is intrinsically linked to a life of faith, indicating that believers are called to trust in God continually in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament and learn how to live in faith.

The New Testament reinforces the Old Testament roots of this phrase, establishing it as a cornerstone of Christian faith, where living by faith is essential for righteousness and spiritual life in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament.

I would to also note that when it came to the Christian Church's requirements for Gentile conversion, these were 4 Hebrew Bible "levitical" requirements that New Christian converts were to keep. These Levitical requirements of Christians included:
1. No sexual immorality
2. No eating anything offered to idols (Paul "rescinded this one)
3 No eating of blood (Paul "rescinded this one.)
4. Eat nothing strangled (Paul "rescinded this one)

Thus a portion of the Levitical Code doe apply to Christians other than those converted by Paul.
 
Maybe some people have just never thought about it. They react in the way they've been taught to react by their denomination. I have no problem differentiating between obedience and works, but not everyone has reached a place where they can do that. There are an astounding number of people who call themselves Christian who don't seek the truth for themselves; they just lap up whatever doctrine or creed that is thrown at them.
Lots of Christians do not have the ability to understand the New Testament they are literally sheep.

Lot's of churches have a combination of tradition and scripture which makes understanding the apostolic teaching,
near impossible to decipher.

Christian Forums is a perfect example of a never ending array of different gospels.

There is no clear solution to this very complex problem.
 
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Dave123:
I see you you like to quote the bible where and as it fit your metanarrative. "Christ's eternal Priesthood replaced the earthly Levitical priesthood. However their Priesthood code did endure into the age of Christianity. Their code of "the Just will live by faith"
Romans 1:17: This verse states, "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" This emphasizes that faith is foundational to righteousness and salvation.

Galatians 3:11: Here, it is reiterated that "the just shall live by faith," highlighting the importance of faith in the life of believers

Hebrews 10:38: This verse also quotes the phrase, stating, "But My righteous one will live by faith; and if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him." This underscores the necessity of perseverance in faith

Theological Implications
Faith as a Way of Life: The phrase suggests that living justly is intrinsically linked to a life of faith, indicating that believers are called to trust in God continually in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament and learn how to live in faith.

The New Testament reinforces the Old Testament roots of this phrase, establishing it as a cornerstone of Christian faith, where living by faith is essential for righteousness and spiritual life in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament.

I would to also note that when it came to the Christian Church's requirements for Gentile conversion, these were 4 Hebrew Bible "levitical" requirements that New Christian converts were to keep. These Levitical requirements of Christians included:
1. No sexual immorality
2. No eating anything offered to idols (Paul "rescinded this one)
3 No eating of blood (Paul "rescinded this one.)
4. Eat nothing strangled (Paul "rescinded this one)

Thus a portion of the Levitical Code doe apply to Christians other than those converted by Paul.
A very strong post and thanks for posting Acts 15:28-29

It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond these essential requirements:
You must abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.
You will do well to avoid these things
.

James laid out the commands that the Gentiles are to obey but everyone for some reason, has another set of
commandments.

Meaning of course, that if you follow the advice of James and his essential requirements you are damned.

No one ever mentions those four commands given to the Gentiles, as if Acts 15 it's only about a physical circumcision.

Still trying to work out what's happening here?

Either the revelation of Jesus and His commandments is a progressive revelation or it's not.
 
1. No sexual immorality
2. No eating anything offered to idols (Paul "rescinded this one)
3 No eating of blood (Paul "rescinded this one.)
4. Eat nothing strangled (Paul "rescinded this one)

Thus a portion of the Levitical Code doe apply to Christians other than those converted by Paul.
Is James quoting Noah's law or Leviticus?
 
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The argument assumes that because God’s character is eternal, every command He ever gives must express an eternal moral truth. But that is not how Scripture treats commands. Many divine commands are covenantal obligations, not eternal moral principles. The flaw is simple: it treats all divine instructions as moral revelations, even though Scripture itself distinguishes between moral realities and covenant‑specific requirements.
The fact that God's character traits are eternal means that everything that God's commands to us about how to embody His character traits is eternal, so that is not an assumption. Scripture never lists which laws are moral laws and never even refers to the category of moral law.

Conceivably, there are any number of commands that God could have given, but there is reason and purpose to the commands that God specifically chose to give that teach us about who He is, what He values, about what his vision of humanity is, and about how to experience an intimate relationship with Him, so everything that God's commands teach us about Him is eternally true. For example, if God had commanded to commit theft, then that would have taught us something very different about who He is than commanding against it, so God's stance on whether or not we should commit theft teaches us something that is eternally true about Him. The Bible often describes the Mosaic Covenant in terms of being a marriage between God and Israel, such as with God describing Himself as her husband (Jeremiah 31:31), so its purpose is not to give us arbitrary obligations but to teach us how to have an intimate relationship with God.

The view that someone has of the Law matches the view that they of the Lawgiver for giving it, so someone who views the Law as being wise also views the Lawgiver as being wise, someone who views the Law as being trustworthy also views the Lawgiver as being trustworthy, someone who views the Law as being not of faith also views the Lawgiver as not being of faith, someone who loves the Law also loves the Lawgiver, someone who views the Law as putting us into bondage also views the Lawgiver as putting us into bondage, and so forth. This is also why the Bible frequently uses the same terms to describe the character of the Law as it does to describe the character of the Lawgiver, such as with the Law being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23). The Psalms express an extremely positive view of obeying the Law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, which certainly matched his view of the Lawgiver, and everyone who considers the Psalms to be Scripture should also share the view of obeying the Law that they express. Moreover, the Apostles should be interpreted in light of the fact that they were in complete agreement with the Psalms.

God's way is the way to know Him and Jesus by embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Torah. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah.

The argument treats Romans 5:13 (“sin was in the world before the law was given”) as if Paul were saying, “All moral norms existed eternally and the Law merely revealed them.” But that is not Paul’s point. Paul is explaining the reign of death and Adam’s transgression—not the continuity of moral norms across covenants. Romans 5 is about how sin and death entered the world through Adam, not about the content or universality of moral commands.
I agree that Paul was using his statement to make a different point than what I made, his statement also supports the point that I made.
 
You've convinced only yourself that the new covenant is the old covenant, and that you are empowered to 'imitate' God's character by observing Moses' law. Something that Paul claimed gives sin its power (1Cor 15:56) and provides opportunity for sin and without which "sin is dead (Ro 7:8)." You keep looking at Moses' law, while I will keep my eyes on Christ.
I do not agree that the New Covenant is the Mosaic Covenant. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses. It is contradictory to keep your eyes on Christ instead on the example that he set for us to follow.

In Romans 7:8-2, Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and that he served it with his mind in contrast with the law of sin, which was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which was waging war against the law of his mind, which he served with his flesh, and which the Law of the Spirit has freed us form. In Romans 8:3-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. So verses that refer to something that would be absurd for people to delight in doing should not be interpreted as referring to the Law of God, while verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, that hinders us form obeying the Law of God should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin.

For example, in Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which clearly is not describing something that is the good that Paul wanted to do, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. Likewise, it would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:5 as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In regard to 1 Corinthian 15:56, a law that is the strength of sin is clearly not describing the good that Paul wanted to do, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In regard to Romans 7:8, it is apart from the law of sin stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death that sin lies dead. We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around.
 
Hello! Just as this passage indicates I think these are the days we're living in:

Judges 21:15 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit.

In my experience churches and Christians often disagree on many things and definitions in denominations can shift. The day is coming when the Lord Jesus will return and be king over the whole earth, then there will be unity and obedience. That day is soon but not yet. God Bless All :)
 
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Forgiveness of sin alone does not make a person righteous. It only removes the guilt from the sin. The Law/justification requires a positive record of perfect obedience. The Law was given for the purpose of showing that it's impossible for us to not sin. The standards of righteousness that we are judges by are God Himself. The Law is a reflection of His holy character. He's flawless. Perfectly righteous and perfectly sinless. That's the standard that He must judge us by without compromising who He is. If He gives one sin a pass without that sin facing His justice, then He would no longer be just, then He also would no longer holy, then He also would no longer righteous. It all falls down and collapses. I said it before, God is constrained by His attributes. He cannot tell a lie, He cannot sin, He is just, not 'just' in a nice happy way, but just in a legal way, perfectly holy justice. That's why Jesus had to do it for us. We can't do it. It's impossible for us (the purpose of the Law is to show us that it's impossible for us). Jesus did it for us. What is impossible for man is possible for God. As a man, Jesus was perfect in His obedience, perfect in His righteousness, that's the righteousness of God that is imputed to us and legally justifies us. His perfect sinlessness made Him an acceptable sacrifice for us to atone for our sin. We cannot even atone for our own sin because we are blemished. Jesus does not fill in the blanks, He's the whole offering on our behalf. All Jesus, none of ourselves, that's the only way the offering passes God's perfect, holy and righteous standards, the Law. Knowing this, listen to Paul....
In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes as the result of perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe. Even if someone managed to have perfect obedience to the Law of God, then they still would not earn their righteousness as the result because it was never given a a way of earning our righteousness in the first place (Romans 4:1-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of why we should obey it. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for sinless obedience. If we needed to have sinless obedience, then repentance would not have any value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have sinless obedience. Everyone who has been been and will be declared righteous has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, which again demonstrates that righteousness does not require sinless obedience.

If you agree that the Law of God teaches us how to reflect God's holy character and that we should reflect God's holy character, then you should agree that we should obey it. Nowhere does the Bible state that the purpose of the Law of God is to show us that it is impossible for us to not sin. It doesn't even make sense for God to command someone to do something for the purpose of showing them that He can command something that they can't perfectly obey. Nowhere does the Bible state that Jesus was a doer of righteous works or that we are imputed with righteousness so that we don't have to be a doer of righteous works. The gift of righteousness is getting to experience being a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God, so it does not work for someone to want the gift of righteousness apart from the content of that gift. Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God and he was a doer of righteous works because he believed God, so it doesn't work for someone to want to be labeled as righteous while not wanting that label to accurately describe their works.

Romans 3:19-31
While Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness as the result of our works, he also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the Law of God will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be a doer of the Law of God other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are are declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31)

Galatians 3:10-29
According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage, but rather the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that we should continue to do everything in it, which is why those who rely on "works of the law" instead come under that curse. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Law of God shall attain life by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Law of God, unlike those who rely on "works of the law", which are not of faith. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the Law of God but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God (Acts 21:20) while the way to reject what he accomplished is by returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from.

The Law of God is how the children of Abraham know how to be blessed by walking in His way (Psalm 119:1-3), so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and by teaching them to obey the Law of God in accordance with spreading the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which is also in accordance with Jesus being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26). It is contradictory for someone to want the blessing of Abraham while not wanting to follow God's instructions for how to be blessed. The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so it is also contradictory for someone to want to receive the Spirit while not wanting to follow Christ's example of waking in obedience to the Law of God. The promise is not earned as the result of our works, but rather the only way to inherit it is through faith, however, the content of what is promised is in regard to our works. The promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that, and because they did that in obedience to the Law of God (Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:4-5, Deuteronomy 30:16). Abraham did not just mentally affirm the truth of the promise but actively worked in order to bring it about.

New covenants do not nullify the promises of covenants that have already been ratified, so God's covenants are eternal cumulatively valid. The Hebrew concept of "until" can mean "up to this point" without implying a change, so this is not suggesting that Jesus came as the promised seed to curse us by freeing us to become doers of what the Law of God reveals to be wickedness, but rather he came with the message of repentance and of returning sinners to obedience to it.

Every aspect of someone being children of God, through faith, in Christ, and children of Abraham and heirs of the promise is directly connected with them being doers of the Law of God. Those who are not doers of righteous works obedience to the Law of God are not children of God (1 John 3:10). In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds the Law of God. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doers of the same works as him.

Romans 10:1-13
In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites failed to attain righteousness because they had the same misunderstanding of the goal of the law that you have, but at least they were obeying it. In Romans 10:5-16, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey, in regard to proclaiming that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are committing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead for salvation, and in regard to the way to believe the Gospel.