Calvinism is Gospel !

[GWH]

The entire Bible is only about the Lord Jesus, from cover to cover. I'm not sure what you're trying to say by suggesting that I rip out the OT from my Bible.

I don't see the need to "re-evaluate what I supposedly couldn't see" and you haven't identified any faults in my theology. There has only ever been one audience throughout bible history. God made a covenant with His chosen/elect people, they have always consisted of Jew and Gentile alike.

I have never proclaimed an unbiblical version of the Lord Jesus, so I don't know why you raise the subject of "Christology".
And I have never read something into a text that wasn't in it's proper historical context, so I don't know why you mention "Eisegesis". You're not making your point clear, it sounds like you get frustrated when others don't agree with your private views.

Well, the Bible is about God's salvation, but Jesus is not named/identified until the NT,
so possibly that was meant by the experiment of considering only the NT.

TULIP is a perverse version of the Lord's Gospel, because it demeans/ignores divine omnilove and justness.

 

[brightfame52]

That's my point isn't it? We so easily dismiss the human perspective as if it wasn't real. I agree with you that God chooses the elect before the foundation of the world, and that He does not elect someone because he foresees their faith.

The personal, existential dimension of salvation is not a footnote to soteriology—it is the arena in which salvation is actually experienced. The grand, cosmic sweep of redemption is glorious, but it is never abstract. Scripture refuses to let salvation remain a mere doctrine; it continually presses it into the lived, embodied, Spirit‑shaped life of the believer.

Salvation is never merely a system; it is an existential reality that unfolds in the life of every consecrated believer. God does not redeem humanity in the abstract—He redeems persons, and those persons are drawn into a life where grace becomes visible, embodied, and practiced. The saints participate in their salvation not as merit‑earners but as Spirit‑formed people whose hearts have been reshaped by divine love. A consecrated believer mourns, forgives, prays, seeks the kingdom, loves enemies, and walks in humility—not to earn life, but because new life has taken root within them. This is the existential core of salvation: God’s gracious act produces a transformed existence. Soteriology is not only about what God does for us; it is also about what God does in us, and therefore what God enables us to do as redeemed people.

It is a significant step forward that you now concede that God chooses His elect before the foundation of the world, and that He does not elect anyone based on foreseen faith. By abandoning the conditional election paradigm, you have admitted that human free will is not the moving cause of God's eternal decrees.

However, your attempt to shift the focus to the "personal, existential dimension" of salvation introduces a subtle but dangerous error. You claim that salvation is an arena where saints "participate in their salvation." While it is true that a regenerated believer actively walks in good works during sanctification, we must be absolutely clear: the sinner contributes zero participation to their actual salvation. Salvation and justification are entirely objective, finished, legal realities accomplished by Christ's death alone on the cross.

When you state that soteriology is about what God does in us, and therefore what God enables us to do, you are blurring the vital line between the root and the fruit. What God does for us at Calvary is the sole, exclusive determiner of our eternal destiny. What He does in us by the Spirit is merely the passive, guaranteed consequence of that finished work. The "existential reality" of a believer's life is not a component of salvation; it is the evidence of it.

We must reject any framework that turns a believer's gaze inward toward their own subjective experiences, feelings, or practices for their standing before God. A consecrated believer does not look to their own ability to mourn, forgive, or love enemies as part of the arena of salvation. They look exclusively outward to the cross where their sins were legally expunged while they were still ungodly enemies. Salvation is not a system of human participation; it is an absolute, unshakeable legal triumph executed by Christ alone.

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[Roger316]

It is a significant step forward that you now concede that God chooses His elect before the foundation of the world, and that He does not elect anyone based on foreseen faith. By abandoning the conditional election paradigm, you have admitted that human free will is not the moving cause of God's eternal decrees.

However, your attempt to shift the focus to the "personal, existential dimension" of salvation introduces a subtle but dangerous error. You claim that salvation is an arena where saints "participate in their salvation." While it is true that a regenerated believer actively walks in good works during sanctification, we must be absolutely clear: the sinner contributes zero participation to their actual salvation. Salvation and justification are entirely objective, finished, legal realities accomplished by Christ's death alone on the cross.

When you state that soteriology is about what God does in us, and therefore what God enables us to do, you are blurring the vital line between the root and the fruit. What God does for us at Calvary is the sole, exclusive determiner of our eternal destiny. What He does in us by the Spirit is merely the passive, guaranteed consequence of that finished work. The "existential reality" of a believer's life is not a component of salvation; it is the evidence of it.

We must reject any framework that turns a believer's gaze inward toward their own subjective experiences, feelings, or practices for their standing before God. A consecrated believer does not look to their own ability to mourn, forgive, or love enemies as part of the arena of salvation. They look exclusively outward to the cross where their sins were legally expunged while they were still ungodly enemies. Salvation is not a system of human participation; it is an absolute, unshakeable legal triumph executed by Christ alone.

---

The believer’s standing before God rests exclusively upon the objective, once‑for‑all, substitutionary work of Christ. Scripture locates justification in the external, forensic act of God, who declares the ungodly righteous solely on the basis of Christ’s obedience and atoning death. Therefore, any theological framework that directs the believer’s confidence toward their own subjective experiences, affections, or practices as contributing to this standing must be rejected as a category error. The ground of salvation is wholly extra not—outside the self.

Regeneration is not a legal fiction but a divine act that produces real ontological change in the human person. The Spirit’s work does not merely alter the believer’s status before God; it transforms the believer’s nature, affections, and capacities. To deny this transformation is to deny the biblical doctrine of the new heart and the indwelling Spirit.

Although justification and sanctification are distinct in nature—one forensic, the other transformative—they are inseparable in effect. The same grace that justifies also sanctifies. Thus, while sanctification contributes nothing to the legal basis of salvation, it is an inevitable consequence of union with Christ. A theological model that affirms justification without acknowledging its sanctifying effects fails to account for the unified work of God in salvation.

If a believer were to look inward to their mourning, forgiving, or enemy‑loving as grounds for assurance, they would be substituting mutable human experience for the immutable work of Christ. This inversion undermines the gospel by relocating confidence from Christ’s finished work to the believer’s fluctuating spiritual condition. Therefore, subjectivism must be rejected.

However, to deny the existential reality of Spirit‑wrought transformation is equally erroneous. It is a refusal to acknowledge what God actually accomplishes in the redeemed. If regeneration produces no real change, then regeneration is meaningless; if sanctification is nonexistent, then the Spirit’s indwelling is functionally denied. A theology that affirms forensic justification while denying existential transformation contradicts the biblical witness and collapses into an abstract legalism divorced from reality.

Salvation is the unshakeable legal triumph executed by Christ alone. Yet this triumph, once applied by the Spirit, necessarily manifests in the believer’s lived existence. The believer’s mourning, forgiving, and enemy‑loving are not components of salvation’s ground but evidences of salvation’s reality. To affirm the former without the latter is to affirm a salvation that never touches the human person—a contradiction of Scripture and of the nature of redemption itself.

Therefore, a coherent soteriology must affirm both the exclusive objectivity of justification and the unavoidable existential transformation that flows from regeneration. Any theological model that denies either dimension fails to account for the full biblical doctrine of salvation.

 

[Journey_man]

What do you think "friend" means?

The word is used in various contexts in the Bible. Unlike human friendships, God remains the Holy Sovereign. Believers are elevated from "servants" to "friends" by Christ (John 15:15), yet this status depends entirely on Christ's mediation and joyful, principled obedience to His commands.

We need to be careful when speaking of God as a "friend," we need to ensure that His absolute holiness and majesty are never compromised, by speaking too casually about Him as a friend.

 

[brightfame52]

Therefore, a coherent soteriology must affirm both the exclusive objectivity of justification and the unavoidable existential transformation that flows from regeneration. Any theological model that denies either dimension fails to account for the full biblical doctrine of salvation.

Okay if that's what you believe, everyone Jesus died for shall be Justified legally, and regenerated Spiritually and believe. So you admit if one is never regenerated, Jesus Christ could not have died for them.

 

[Journey_man]

We are made in the image of God. We are His children. Jesus is our Brother. We will be united with Him in such intimacy that it like husband and wife. We are partakers of the divine nature. We are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ. We have the indwelling life of Christ. Our lives are hidden in Christ with God.

Don't misunderstand "respecter of persons". It does not mean that God despises us. He called Abraham friend. Lord Jesus calls us His friends, if we obey Him. He even called Judas friend. What it means is that God does not play favourites. Another misleading translation from the KJV.

Equal? No. Blessed and privileged beyond comprehension? For sure.

We were made in the image of God, but that image was severely defaced and corrupted by human sin, but not totally erased. While the "narrow" sense of the image (original righteousness, true holiness, and spiritual knowledge of God) was lost in the Fall, the "broader" structural capacities (reason, conscience, personhood) remain, though tainted by rebellion.
Through redemption, God begins to actively restore the spiritual likeness of the image in believers, a process that will be fully completed upon glorification. He doesn't do this for the unbelievers, so their image remains corrupted.

We know that God loves His elect, but He also hates some like Esau. So we need to consider the fact that God doesn't love everyone. The reality is that God will cast most of mankind into hell, only His elect are saved.

So God does play favourites, He chose a some for salvation while leaving the rest in their fallen, condemned state.

 

[Journey_man]

That's my point isn't it? We so easily dismiss the human perspective as if it wasn't real. I agree with you that God chooses the elect before the foundation of the world, and that He does not elect someone because he foresees their faith.

The personal, existential dimension of salvation is not a footnote to soteriology—it is the arena in which salvation is actually experienced. The grand, cosmic sweep of redemption is glorious, but it is never abstract. Scripture refuses to let salvation remain a mere doctrine; it continually presses it into the lived, embodied, Spirit‑shaped life of the believer.

Salvation is never merely a system; it is an existential reality that unfolds in the life of every consecrated believer. God does not redeem humanity in the abstract—He redeems persons, and those persons are drawn into a life where grace becomes visible, embodied, and practiced. The saints participate in their salvation not as merit‑earners but as Spirit‑formed people whose hearts have been reshaped by divine love. A consecrated believer mourns, forgives, prays, seeks the kingdom, loves enemies, and walks in humility—not to earn life, but because new life has taken root within them. This is the existential core of salvation: God’s gracious act produces a transformed existence. Soteriology is not only about what God does for us; it is also about what God does in us, and therefore what God enables us to do as redeemed people.

If I understand you correctly, you agree that a believer contributes nothing to their salvation except the sin that made it necessary. Salvation—from sovereign election and the new birth to faith and final perseverance—is entirely a free, unearned gift accomplished by God.

God the Holy Spirit acts first to make a person alive (regeneration), which logically and causally precedes faith. Even the faith and repentance needed to receive Christ are given by God, not generated from human free will.

Faith is the passive instrument that receives Christ’s righteousness, but it is not a meritorious work that earns favour. Good works do not cause or secure salvation, but they naturally follow as the necessary fruit and proof of a genuine transformed heart.

 

[Journey_man]

Well, the Bible is about God's salvation, but Jesus is not named/identified until the NT,
so possibly that was meant by the experiment of considering only the NT.

TULIP is a perverse version of the Lord's Gospel, because it demeans/ignores divine omnilove and justness.

Your teacher failed to inform you that Genesis 3:15 is speaking about the Lord Jesus. As I already told you, the entire Bible is only about the Lord Jesus, because He created everything that exists for Himself and for His own glory.

I'm not here to give you a free Bible lesson, so perhaps you ought to find yourself a faithful teacher before you embarrass yourself any further by exposing your ignorance.

 

[GWH]

We were made in the image of God, but that image was severely defaced and corrupted by human sin, but not totally erased. While the "narrow" sense of the image (original righteousness, true holiness, and spiritual knowledge of God) was lost in the Fall, the "broader" structural capacities (reason, conscience, personhood) remain, though tainted by rebellion.
Through redemption, God begins to actively restore the spiritual likeness of the image in believers, a process that will be fully completed upon glorification. He doesn't do this for the unbelievers, so their image remains corrupted.

We know that God loves His elect, but He also hates some like Esau. So we need to consider the fact that God doesn't love everyone. The reality is that God will cast most of mankind into hell, only His elect are saved.

So God does play favourites, He chose a some for salvation while leaving the rest in their fallen, condemned state.

Jesus is the perfect image of God (1Cor. 11:7, 2Cor. 4:4, Col. 1:15), so restoration consists of becoming more like Christ morally via the sanctification process indicated in Eph. 4:11-15, 5:1-2, Col. 2:6-7, Phil. 2:5&12-15.

Yes, unrepentant sinners remain corrupted/sinful, but they reap what they sow/the just consequence sin rather than God arbitrarily casting them into hell (Rom. 2:5-13). God's hatred for Esau expresses this justice: God hates sins, which grieves Him (Eph. 4:30, Isa. 63:10, Matt. 23:37, Ezek. 33:11).

It is blasphemy to contradict the clear teaching of God that He does NOT show favoritism!
(Rom. 2:11, Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17). Better let the Holy Spirit teach yourself, J-man.

 

[Mem]

The word is used in various contexts in the Bible. Unlike human friendships, God remains the Holy Sovereign. Believers are elevated from "servants" to "friends" by Christ (John 15:15), yet this status depends entirely on Christ's mediation and joyful, principled obedience to His commands.

We need to be careful when speaking of God as a "friend," we need to ensure that His absolute holiness and majesty are never compromised, by speaking too casually about Him as a friend.

The bow the neck thing (as opposed to bending the knee) is meant to signify of a sort of nod of acknowledgment, not any sort of subservience. He lifts my head, Himself, and honors me with such a status (John 15:15).

 

[HeIsHere]

I hear you. But your objection is resolved in a more complete understanding of God's providence.

Predestination is not merely the outcome of God’s choice; it is the outworking of a story God is telling, and it is a good story. God’s sovereignty is not mechanical but narrative—He not only ordains the final moment in history, He shapes every moment along the way to serve His redemptive purpose. Joseph’s life is the prime example. His brothers’ betrayal was genuinely evil, yet God wove every scene—from the pit, to Potiphar’s house, to prison, to Pharaoh’s court—into a trajectory that fulfilled His will and preserved His people. The point is not to speculate about how God accomplishes this but to recognize the essential truth Scripture insists upon: God is in control, and He is good. Predestination is not cold determinism; it is the assurance that the Author of history is writing a story in which even the darkest chapters serve His righteous and gracious ends.

Predestination, properly understood, is hopeful, encouraging, and fulfilling.


I am uncertain as to your reasoning, so I will not try to evaluate your stated position. You simply assert that “regeneration does not precede faith” and that “sanctification cannot precede justification,” but you never explain why you believe these things.

So, please allow me to make a few assumptions to keep the conversation moving in a positive direction. I am going to assume that your assertions come with certain typical assumptions, so correct me if I am wrong. For example, sanctification is often reduced to moral improvement, as though it were merely the gradual shaping of character. But biblically, sanctification is first and foremost consecration—God’s act of setting apart an individual for Himself and for His purposes. And the marker of that consecration is not moral achievement but belief in what God has said. When God sanctifies someone—sets them apart for Himself—the first evidence of that divine act is faith. In that sense, sanctification in its consecrating dimension can indeed precede justification, because faith itself is the sign that God has already claimed and set apart the person who now believes.

As I say, my intent is not to set up a straw man. So correct me where I went wrong.

We already had this conversation.

No sanctification is not at all moral improvement.

It is absolutely clear in scripture that regeneration cannot precede justification and justification is a status to those who have exercised faith in Christ Jesus for salvation.

It seems you maintain a dual nature of God (doing good and evil) I reject that completely.

 

[HeIsHere]

Well, the Bible is about God's salvation, but Jesus is not named/identified until the NT,
so possibly that was meant by the experiment of considering only the NT.

TULIP is a perverse version of the Lord's Gospel, because it demeans/ignores divine omnilove and justness.

TULIP should have never been allowed in the ekklesia, it should have been considered anathema.

They have huge issues with the God who is Love.

Interesting the seeds were planted in a time when sound scriptural knowledge was limited to a few, in this way it could be preached

to the ignorant, however, not sure what excuse present day Christians have since it has all be refuted over and over again by actual

bible believers.

 

[Roger316]

Okay if that's what you believe, everyone Jesus died for shall be Justified legally, and regenerated Spiritually and believe. So you admit if one is never regenerated, Jesus Christ could not have died for them.

No, I don't see the atonement the way you do. The doctrine of Limited Atonement is based on a transactional salvation, but the Bible teaches that salvation is transformative, not transactional. I will attempt to use bold and itemize ideas to clarify my point.

The entire debate is framed as if salvation were a transaction, and once you see that, the usual Calvinist vs. Arminian arguments start to feel like they’re answering the wrong question.

1. A transactional model assumes salvation is a legal exchange​

In the transactional frame:

• Christ pays a price
• God accepts the payment
• The payment is applied to individuals
• Faith is the mechanism by which the payment is transferred
• The debate becomes: When does the transfer occur? and For whom was the payment made?

This is the logic behind both:

• Calvinist definite atonement (payment applied to the elect)
• Arminian universal atonement (payment available to all, applied to believers)

Both sides assume a transactional atonement model.

But the New Testament’s dominant imagery is not transactional—it is transformational.

2. The Bible’s primary soteriological categories are transformational​

Look at the verbs Scripture uses:

• regeneration (παλιγγενεσία) — new birth
• new creation (καινὴ κτίσις) — ontological change
• calling — divine summons that creates what it commands
• sanctification — consecration and renewal
• union with Christ — participatory transformation
• indwelling Spirit — God inhabiting the person
• adoption — relational re-identification
• resurrection life — participation in Christ’s life

None of these are transactional categories. They are personal, relational, ontological, covenantal categories.

The Bible’s soteriology is not “God changes your legal status,” but “God changes you.”

3. Once salvation is seen as transformation, the debate shifts​

If salvation is fundamentally transformative, then the real question is:

When does God transform the person?

Calvinism:​

Transformation → Faith → Justification → Life(regeneration precedes faith)

Arminianism:​

Faith → Transformation → Justification → Life(faith precedes regeneration)

But both sides still assume a transactional atonement underneath the transformation.

I'm arguing that this assumption is the real problem.

4. A transformational model reframes the atonement itself​

In a transformational frame:

• The atonement is not a payment waiting to be applied.
• The atonement is the means by which God re‑creates a people.
• The cross is not a transaction but a covenant‑making event.
• Christ’s death is not a legal mechanism but a life‑giving act that produces a new humanity.
• Expiation is not a transfer but a purification that makes union possible.

This is Hebrews’ logic:

“He purified sins.”“He perfected those being sanctified.”“He opened a new and living way.”

Purification is not a transaction—it is a transformation of the worshiper.

5. So what is the right question?​

Not:

• “When is the transaction applied?”
• “For whom was the transaction made?”

But:

How does God’s saving work transform a person, and when does that transformation occur?
This reframes the entire debate around regeneration, union with Christ, and participation in Christ’s death and resurrection—the categories Paul and John actually use.

6. My insight is theologically significant​

The debate is misframed because it treats salvation as a legal transaction rather than a divine transformation.

This is a deeply biblical critique, and it aligns with:

• John’s emphasis on new birth
• Paul’s emphasis on new creation
• Hebrews’ emphasis on purification
• Jesus’ emphasis on abiding and union
• Ezekiel’s emphasis on new heart and new spirit

The Bible’s soteriology is personal, relational, transformational, and covenantal—not merely juridical.

 

[HeIsHere]

But Calvinism teaches that people do not choose to remain dead, they have no choice. They remain dead unless God arbitrarily decides to regenerate them.

So, no matter how you squirm and twist, or run to AI to agree with you, Calvinism necessarily blames God for why a sinner never repents.

Again, if Calvinism is correct, an unsaved sinner can face judgment with the assertion that he did not repent and trust Jesus because God did not put repentance into him.

Thus, Calvinism makes a mockery of God’s justice.

True Christianity teaches that people have free will — and are personally accountable for rejecting the gospel or accepting it.


Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Agree and thank you!!

People are not guilty because of Adam... that is lie to make the system work and is never established in scripture.

People are born separated from God because of Adam, but they do not carry Adam's guilt.

 

[Roger316]

We already had this conversation.

No sanctification is not at all moral improvement.

It is absolutely clear in scripture that regeneration cannot precede justification and justification is a status to those who have exercised faith in Christ Jesus for salvation.

It seems you maintain a dual nature of God (doing good and evil) I reject that completely.

I don't think I claimed that God has a dual nature. I maintain that God is a creator of all things: persons, places, things, and events. The order of salvation doesn't matter because salvation isn't a mechanical process; it's a creative process. God not only creates people, he creates entire lives from start to finish, from birth to death.

 

[HeIsHere]

I don't think I claimed that God has a dual nature. I maintain that God is a creator of all things: persons, places, things, and events. The order of salvation doesn't matter because salvation isn't a mechanical process; it's a creative process.

I am quite sure you have stated that God is responsible for evil, correct?

 

[HeIsHere]

Tulipism blames God for not favoring everyone with forced election.
And you just accused God of damning humanity because of Adam rather than allowing them to repent.
Choosing has everything to do with praising God for His omnilove and justness.

Imagine how super special they are being picked to escape Adam's guilt everyone else has to bear.

Yeah another false doctrine of theirs.

 

[Cameron143]

Agree and thank you!!

People are not guilty because of Adam... that is lie to make the system work and is never established in scripture.

People are born separated from God because of Adam, but they do not carry Adam's guilt.

If they don't carry Adam's guilt, why are they born under condemnation?

 

[Roger316]

I am quite sure you have stated that God is responsible for evil, correct?

When I say God is “responsible” for all that exists, I am speaking in the biblical sense of God as Creator, Author, and Sustainer of reality. Scripture teaches that nothing exists apart from His will, and nothing unfolds outside His sovereign governance. In that sense, God is the ultimate cause of the world’s story. But Scripture also teaches that God is not the moral cause of the evil His creatures commit. He does not perform evil, delight in evil, or coerce creatures into evil. The Bible distinguishes between God as the ultimate cause of the world’s existence and creatures as the proximate cause of their own sinful actions. When people first encounter this distinction, they often collapse the categories and imagine I’m saying God personally commits atrocities. I’m not. I’m simply affirming the biblical truth that God is sovereign over all things while creatures remain fully responsible for the evil they do. God authors the story, but He is never morally guilty of the sins committed within it.

 

[Roger316]

If I understand you correctly, you agree that a believer contributes nothing to their salvation except the sin that made it necessary. Salvation—from sovereign election and the new birth to faith and final perseverance—is entirely a free, unearned gift accomplished by God.

God the Holy Spirit acts first to make a person alive (regeneration), which logically and causally precedes faith. Even the faith and repentance needed to receive Christ are given by God, not generated from human free will.

Faith is the passive instrument that receives Christ’s righteousness, but it is not a meritorious work that earns favour. Good works do not cause or secure salvation, but they naturally follow as the necessary fruit and proof of a genuine transformed heart.

Let me put it this way. Someone might ask, "How does Jesus save sinners?" Another person might ask, "How does Jesus save ME?" I try to be careful to remember that the Gospel isn't some abstract idea, it's personal and relevant to our lives.