False teaching by separating Scripture from Scripture

[Journey_man]

Paul was not a reprobate when writing Heb 11, and speaking of himself with us believers. He was an apostle and holy man of God writing Scripture of God to we the people of faith.

We can ignore our Lord's warning of not being transgressors with the unbelievers of the world, but that does not make us justified believers in Jesus Christ. By our own transgressions we make ourselves unjustified with the unbelievers of the world.

The Lord Jesus Christ will judge us all by our works, whether good or evil, and without any respect to our personal belief about our own salvation and justification.

2Co 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Forsaking the fear of the Lord's equal and righteous judgment of works, and dismissing it as bad theology; Is not having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, but only decieved faith in ourselves and our own personal gospel alone.

Both born-again believers and unbelievers—will stand before the same final judgment seat of Christ, but they will not be judged in the same way or with the same outcome. While everyone gives an account based on their deeds, believers are acquitted because of Christ's righteousness, whereas unbelievers are condemned for their sin.

Unbelievers are judged according to their works to demonstrate the full measure of their guilt against God’s holy law. Because their names are not found in the Book of Life, their works and unrepented sins result in a just, eternal condemnation and punishment in the lake of fire.

Believers also appear before the throne, and their earthly deeds are examined to reveal the fruit and proof of their genuine faith. However, their eternal salvation and legal standing are secure. They do not face a verdict of life or death, because the penalty for all their sins was fully paid by Christ on the cross.

 

[GWH]

We are saved through faith. (Eph. 2:8-9) And believing and obedience to what God's word states about water baptism in the name of Jesus brings about the reality of having one's sins remitted. Paul points out that not all obey the gospel. (Rom. 10:16) How does one obey the gospel message of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus? There is a obvious parallel. Believers die to themselves through repentance, are buried with Jesus into His death in obedience to water baptism in His name, and receive resurrection power after becoming indwelt with His Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

As for Romans 3:20–5:11 it teaches that no one can earn justification through works of the Mosaic law. It does not teach that saving faith is merely an inward belief in Christ’s atonement, followed later by baptism as an outward good work.

Sinners are saved when they satisfy God's requirement for salvation, which is lifelong faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord,
and willingness to cooperate with God's loving Holy Spirit is manifested by various fruit/works that may include water baptism,
but no specific work is sacramental/salvific.

 

[ATG]

Your supporting my argument.

Love of others as I have loved you is the commandment which means the concern for others comes first.

The goal of all Christian instruction is that agape love of others.

Correct. We shouldn't be seeking to lord it over other Christians by our own personal rules.

Mar 7:7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Tit 1:14
Not giving heed to commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

1Pe 5:1
Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready heart; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

 

[ATG]

How do you define "sin"?

How do you define "the law of Christ"?

Christians seeking to establish their own law over others, certainly wouldn't know the difference between law of Christ written by the apostles, and their own law written by themselves alone.

As I said, if you want to debate drinking wine and strong drink, then we certainly can from the Scripture.

But so long as you leave the argument to make yourself judge and accuser of the brethren, then you've already made up your own mind, and wouldn't hear the Scritptures anyway.

 

[ATG]

Peter did not command already “newborn people” to be baptized sometime after salvation. When convicted sinners asked what they must do, he answered:

“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:38).

Already answered about the first gospel preaching to devout Jews obedient to the law, and commanding them to repent and be baptised in Jesus' name for remission of sins.

Never again in Scripture is water baptism preached by Peter nor any other aposlte, whether to Jew or Gentile, for remission of sins.

Modern baptismal water commandoes notwithstanding...

Also, Ananias told the believing, repentant, and praying Saul, “Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22:16).

Act 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Paul was already a believer chosen by the Lord for apostleship to the nations. And was filled with the Holy Ghost when recieving his sight, before arising to be water baptised.

Already corrected any kind of semi-newbirth by the Holy GHost, waiting on men's hands for the Holy Ghost to have effect.

Dittoes for any kind of nearly-chosen vessel by the Lord, waiting on water to be really chosen.

Niether the Lord Himself nor His work of the Spirit, is bound by men's hands nor any natural thing, before having affect.

Paul later explained that those baptized into Christ were baptized into His death, buried with Him, and raised to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:3–4; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12).

Already corrected the difference between the Spirit's baptism, and water baptism.

Christians certainly can be filled with the Holy Ghost coming out of baptismal water, but by the Scriptural record not necessary.

Receiving Jesus involves faith, but biblical faith does not separate believing from obeying what Christ commanded. Jesus “became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him” (Hebrews 5:9).

Already corrected the difference between born again believers obeying commanded works, and waiting to be 'fully' born again by a commanded work.

Lasting, Nehemiah 8:8 does not teach us to quote isolated verses. It says they “gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.” That requires allowing all the relevant Scriptures to speak—not redefining baptism as something commanded only after the new birth when Scripture never says that.

That's the tile of the thread alright. You're preaching to the choir.

And we're also warned against twisting Scriptures, ibn order to make them fit our own personal beliefs and rules.

In all the Scriptures you've quoted, you only preach one of them correctly, Acts 2:38. Every other scripture you seek to force-mould them to your own religion created out of Acts 2:38.

And yet, you also twist Acts 2:38 into a for all newborn believers, whether Jew or Gentile, and not only to those law-keeping devout Jews, that were gathered together from afar at Jerusalem for Pentecost.

 

[Inquisitor]

Christians seeking to establish their own law over others, certainly wouldn't know the difference between law of Christ written by the apostles, and their own law written by themselves alone.

As I said, if you want to debate drinking wine and strong drink, then we certainly can from the Scripture.

But so long as you leave the argument to make yourself judge and accuser of the brethren, then you've already made up your own mind, and wouldn't hear the Scritptures anyway.

I will get to judge the world.

 

[Journey_man]

Heb 10 is warning against transgression. Heb 6 is warning of apostasy without repentance.

Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10 is for Paul and us, who still believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If we should transgress with the world, then we shall be counted as unbelievers with judgment to come, except we repent and confess our transgression with Jesus the Advocate for the world.

1Jo 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

For if we do transgress against our Lord, we are not cast away as reprobates. Rather as in Rom 11, the Jews transgressing against Jesus the Christ, could repent by faith and be grafted again into the Israel of God, so can we Christians, who are not the natural branches.

Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 6 is not for Paul and us, but for those that do fall away by transgression without repentance. They harden their hearts to conviction of the Spirit and judgment of works, so that as with blaspheming the Holy Ghost, it is impossible for them to repent and beleive Jesus Christ for saving grace and forgiveness of sins.

2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

We are judged as an unbeliever for transgression. We are cast off as a reprobate by unrepentance. Both are guilty by transgressions, but only the latter is hardened to godly sorrow, and can no more repent at all.

We do not need doctrine to transgress, nor to harden our hearts. We only need ignore the gospel warnings against transgression. However, there are certain destructive teachings that do lead into more transgressions, and even to fallen apostacy.

The doctrine of presumptive sinning without guilt, first sets aside any need to keep God's commandments for justification, as well as any need of repentance from transgressions for reconciliation with God.

Our repentance and confession can become presumptive and vain. We are sorry about sinning, but we are not godly sorrowful to repent of our transgressions. Our hearts become hardened altogether against any such pretence of sorriness in the first place. Our trangressions continue with no godly confession at all.

Is 63:17
O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Jer 7:26
Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.

Heb 3:13
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Hebrews 10:26 does not mean a truly born-again believer can lose their salvation. Instead, it describes "deliberate sin" as apostasy—a total, permanent rejection of Christ by someone who professed faith outwardly but was never truly regenerate. But God preserves His elect to the end.

1 John 2:1 anticipates the reality that believers will sin. But a regenerate person’s life is characterized by a general direction toward righteousness and quick repentance, whereas an unregenerate person lives as a "slave to sin" without a new nature.

When believers sin, we are not judges as unbelievers. So you got that wrong, I have already explained why Hebrews 6:4 is not speaking about regenerate believers. The Lord doesn't save a person, only to lose them. He shall lose none of those the Father gave Him.

2 Cor 7:10 is also speaking about Gods elect, He brings sorrow into our lives and it causes us to turn to Him. While the unbelievers do not turn to the Lord, they blaspheme His Name when they experience sorrow.

 

[Journey_man]

While there are certainly unbelieving members of churches, having no faith in the Lord for saving forgiveness and cleansing, the Scritures record honest believers, that do forsake the Lord by transgression, beginning with Adam the son of God. The anointed King Saul. And of course the chosen apostle Judas Iscariot.

And that includes all the believing Jews, that forsook the Lord at the cross, and were all cut off from the Israel of God as unbelievers.

And so, the warning of Heb 10 and Rom 11 is the same for Paul and us all, that we should not be highminded in our faith, and presume our own justification and guiltlessness by faith, while likewise transgressing after the manner of Adam.

Rom 11:18
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

We see once again, how that the disobedient Jews were counted as unbelievers by forsaking Jesus, but are grafted in again by repentance and faith toward Jesus for saving mercy and grace. So also we are warned, that we too can be cut off by transgression against Jesus, but can also repent likewise and be grafted in again.

However, if we become presumtpive in our own transgression by highmindedness in our own faith, then we will not humble ourselves with the guilty called to repentance. Rather in our own decpetive faith and doctrine, we can remain condemned with the unrepentant transgressors of the world.

1Jo 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sinning unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

If we are transgressing and seeking saving mercy and foriveness from Jesus Christ, we can pray for ourselves and others likewise. But, if we are unrepentant without godly sorrow, then we will not pray to God, nor are we to pray for others that likewise harden themselves and repent not.

I can see you struggling to make sense of your theology, because it doesn't line up with the Bible. You're still holing on to the idea that, sinners are saved by the "name it and claim it, version of the gospel". While the truth is, sinners don't get to choose or claim anything, because they are dead in their sin.

You still haven't accepted the the fact that God is absolutely sovereign over every single aspect of His creation. He predestined the salvation of every single one of His elect. He wrote our names in His book before the world was created. The book was closed back then and no new names can be added or removed, it's a done deal and it's not negotiable.

 

[Journey_man]

Psa 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that is doing righteousness at all times.

God's righteousness is at all times.

1Jo 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is doing unrighteousness is not of God, neither he that is not loving his brother.

If we are doing unrighteousness at any time, we are not doing righteousness of God. If we are not loving a brother or sister at any time, we are not loving them at all.

If we are stealing at any time, we are a thief at the time. Any thief committing theft at any time, is committing to stealing at the time.

Eph{4:28}
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

God's commanded repentance for His mercy's sake, is to steal no more, not to steal less than before.

God's righteousness is not the relative righteousness of man, that presumes to outweigh present evil doing with practices in general.

The righteous God's balance sheet of judgment is the work we are doing is judged. Not yesterday's work, nor tommorrow's that may not come.

Eccl 12:14
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
1 Peter {1:15}
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judges according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:


We ought not inject whole doctrines into specific words, that say nothing of them.

In any case, if we believers wiluflly sin and reject Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice in favour of returning to an alternative system like Temple Judaism....Then there remains no more sacrifice for us believers, who have made ourselves unbelievers by transgressing the Lord's commandment.

1Co 10:12
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Psa 19:13
Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

Whether we presume we shall not be guilty of transgression, by transgressing the Lord's commandments, or presume we shall never transgress again, we are presuming on the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ to wash and save us, whether we are doing good or evil.

Pro 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.


The preumption to judge someone we once heartily loved as a brother and sister in the Lord, to have been nothing but a dirty dog and pig all along, is also highminded pride leading to our own fall:

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Though many were unbelievers in Jesus Christ, there were certainly believing disiciples cut off at the cross, for forsaking Him. Notably Peter:

Mat 26:75
And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

And if such highminded judgment of them that fall away, is in order to justify a tradition of no 'true' believer ever forsook the Lord. That shows it's a presumptive tradition itself that leads to pride before a fall ourselves. As well as being contrary to the Scriptural record and doctrine of truth.

Which Scriptures have already been given abundantly here, for anyone to read, believe, and be warned.

Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

The Bible reveals that believers are "dead to sin". In Romans 6:2 and Romans 6:11, the Apostle Paul asks, "How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" and instructs believers to "consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus".

Believers are spiritually joined to Jesus. When Christ died on the cross, His death counted as the believer's death. Therefore, the old self was crucified with Him.

This is a once-for-all radical break from the dominion of sin. The regenerate person's fundamental status changes; sin is no longer our legal master.
Paul first states an absolute truth (indicative: you are dead to sin) before giving a command (imperative: therefore, consider yourselves dead to sin and stop yielding to it). Action flows from your new identity.

Being dead to sin does not mean a believer stops sinning entirely. It means sin no longer holds absolute tyranny or final ownership over the heart, allowing the believer to choose righteousness through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Journey_man]

No Scripture says salvation is won. We don't preach winning nor losing salvation, but only overcoming temptation by Jesus Christ, or falling from grace by transgression.

2 Peter 1:3
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

You don't don't get to win salvation, nor do you have the power to overcome temptation. If the Lord Jesus didn't do it for you, and if it wasn't given to you as a gift, then you don't have it.

If you have it, you can never lose it. If you weren't predestined for salvation by God, then your profession of faith is like a house built on sand. It will not stand when the storm comes.

 

[Journey_man]

Already corrected.


Finish the Scripture.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The error of separating Scripture from Scripture of course includes cutting Scripture off mid-verse.



Already corrected.


Already corrected.

Rom 16:18
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

The gospel of sinning without guilt, only leads to more transgressions without repentance.

Mat 15:14
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Not "Already corrected", more like "Already rejected that truth"

 

[ATG]

Both born-again believers and unbelievers—will stand before the same final judgment seat of Christ,

The judgment seat of Christ is us who name His name, when He comes again to sparate the wheat from the tares.

2Co 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the works done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

Heb 10:29
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

If we are found doing good, He will first resurrect us into the air to reign with Him on earth. If we are found doing evil, He will leave us on earth apopointed to wrath with the hypocrites.

Mat 24:45
Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

Mat 24:48
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming, And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The great white throne judgment of God, is a thousand years later, with all the rest of dead judged by works unto everlasting life or everlasting shame.

but they will not be judged in the same way or with the same outcome.

Of course not. Unfortunatly, not all men do good, but also not all do evil. And so the judgment of God separates the good from the evil, first from His judgment seat on earth, and at the end from His judgment throne in heaven.

While everyone gives an account based on their deeds, believers are acquitted because of Christ's righteousness,

Transgressors are not acquitted by God without repentance. Jesus' righteousness is not with evil doing.

Nah 1:3
The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked:

Job 10:14I
If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.

whereas unbelievers are condemned for their sin.

Rom 2:3
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?...For there is no respect of persons with God.

The hypocrisy gospel of justifying oneself by faith, while condemning others doing the same, will fall at the grave.

Mat 15:14
They be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

If we that name Christ are found doing evil, we will be condemned greater than the world.

The sons of perdition are betrayers of Jesus Chist by unrighteous deeds, beginning with Judas Iscariot, not the heathen that knew not God.

Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Unbelievers are judged according to their works to demonstrate the full measure of their guilt against God’s holy law.

True. All transgressors are unbelievers found guilty by their works.

And, as we've seen already, if we also wilfully sins against our Lord, then we also make ourselves unbelievers without Christ. If we repent not with the hardened of the world, then we condmen ourselves unto the judgment of the righeous Judge Jesus Christ.

Only if we are keeping His commandments faitfhully, are we counted the judtified believers of the Lord.

Because their names are not found in the Book of Life, their works and unrepented sins result in a just, eternal condemnation and punishment in the lake of fire.

Correct. No unrepented transgressors is found written in the Lamb's Book of Life at His great white thrown judgment.

Believers also appear before the throne, and their earthly deeds are examined to reveal the fruit and proof of their genuine faith.

True.

Only the wheat will be found doing good at the judgment seat of Christ. The tares doing evil are appointed to wrath.

However, their eternal salvation and legal standing are secure.

The only sure eternal salvation for any person, is the believer obeying Jesus Christ:

Heb{5:8}
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

They do not face a verdict of life or death, because the penalty for all their sins was fully paid by Christ on the cross.

No person must pay for our transgressions, if we repent for Jesus' forgiveness, washing, and sactification in holy obedience to the Lord:

1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Both born-again believers and unbelievers—will stand before the same final judgment seat of Christ, but they will not be judged in the same way or with the same outcome. While everyone gives an account based on their deeds, believers are acquitted because of Christ's righteousness, whereas unbelievers are condemned for their sin.

Unbelievers are judged according to their works to demonstrate the full measure of their guilt against God’s holy law. Because their names are not found in the Book of Life, their works and unrepented sins result in a just, eternal condemnation and punishment in the lake of fire.

Believers also appear before the throne, and their earthly deeds are examined to reveal the fruit and proof of their genuine faith. However, their eternal salvation and legal standing are secure. They do not face a verdict of life or death, because the penalty for all their sins was fully paid by Christ on the cross.

And so, in review, we see not one Scripture for all this speech. Nor one word of obedience with all the grand words of faith words.

If we only preach faith, and not obedience of the faith, then we preach faith with more disobedience to God.

Rom 16:18
By good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Rev 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;

 

[ATG]

I will get to judge the world.

Well now. Can hardly wait. But not with the bad judgment you have now.

If we don't judge according to Scripture, then we shall be judged by Scripture.

1Co 4:6
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Luk 7:33
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

The Lord will not have anyone judging the world, that judges Himself a sinner for drinking wine. The Lord rebuke your false accusation.

 

[Wansvic]

Sinners are saved when they satisfy God's requirement for salvation, which is lifelong faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord,
and willingness to cooperate with God's loving Holy Spirit is manifested by various fruit/works that may include water baptism,
but no specific work is sacramental/salvific.

Jesus said all will be judged by the Word. And it states water baptism is an essential element of salvation:

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:15-16

"Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord...." Acts 10 43, 47-48

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16

 

[ATG]

Hebrews 10:26 does not mean a truly born-again believer can lose their salvation.

No wilfull transgressor having no more sacrifice for sin, is believing on Jesus Christ, nor has any salvation from sin.

Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

If we are disobeying the Lord with the world, we are friends of the world and adversaries of God.

Jas 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Jesus Christ eternally saves only His obedience saints.

Heb{5:8}

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Instead, it describes "deliberate sin" as apostasy—a total, permanent rejection of Christ by someone who professed faith outwardly but was never truly regenerate.

Deliberate sinning unrepented of, is deliberating sinning unto the grave. Dying in our deliberate sinning is eternal separation from Jesus Christ:

Jde 1:12
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

But God preserves His elect to the end.

True. Jesus' elect are the obedient saints keeping His commandments unto the end.

2 pet 1:4
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:1 anticipates the reality that believers will sin.

Scripture is written that we sin not. Scripture also says we can repent and be forgiven if we do sin.

Scripture does not preach sinning to the people of God, but preaches sinning not.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is repent and believe on Him to sin not.

The gospel of another Christ is believe and sin more.

Rom 16:18
By good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

But a regenerate person’s life is characterized by a general direction toward righteousness and quick repentance, whereas an unregenerate person lives as a "slave to sin" without a new nature.

The sinful religious person's life is generally less sinful than before. The irreligious sinful person's lfe is sinning without pretence.

The new creature's life in Christ Jesus is the pure religion of doing good and not evil:

2Co 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

Jas 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

When believers sin, we are not judged as unbelievers.

If we transgress, we make ourselves unbelievers. But are judged worse than unbelievers that name not Christ.


2Pe 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:21
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

If we are transgressing God's commandments, we are not believing on Jesus Christ to do good and not evil.

If we are transgressing God's commandments, and we are believing on a Christ to do more sinning, then we are believing in an unrighteous Christ, not the only true Christ Jesus.

So you got that wrong, I have already explained why Hebrews 6:4 is not speaking about regenerate believers.

I've already given abundanct Scriptures that regernate believers make ourselves degenerate transgressors, if we keep not the Lord's Holy commandment.

Contrary to the many 'explanations' of them that preach more sinning against God, with justification of their Christ.

The Lord doesn't save a person, only to lose them. He shall lose none of those the Father gave Him.

The righteous Lord only saves a person to sin not. He only loses them that repent not.

Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2 Cor 7:10 is also speaking about Gods elect, He brings sorrow into our lives and it causes us to turn to Him.

The true God does not bring sorrow to anyone, but only assurance, comfort, and hope of everlasting life.

Sorrow is brought by the hardhsips of natural life in a wicked world.

God brings judgment and shame and tribulation on His people that transgress His commandment, that we may repent and return to His saving grace and fellowship in the light.

Isa 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

While the unbelievers do not turn to the Lord, they blaspheme His Name when they experience sorrow.

All trasngressors are unbelieving toward God, and the hardened repent not and blaspheme His gospel of righteousness by fair words and enticing to sin more.

Once again, you preach no Scripture nor obedience to the Lord, that we may sin not. But only more and more explanations of how we can sin more and more, and yet always being saved and justified by another Christ.

Psa 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that is doing righteousness at all times.

Blessed are they always doing righteousness, not they only believing in being saved and justified at all times.

 

[Wansvic]

Already answered about the first gospel preaching to devout Jews obedient to the law, and commanding them to repent and be baptised in Jesus' name for remission of sins.

Never again in Scripture is water baptism preached by Peter nor any other aposlte, whether to Jew or Gentile, for remission of sins.

Modern baptismal water commandoes notwithstanding...


Act 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Paul was already a believer chosen by the Lord for apostleship to the nations. And was filled with the Holy Ghost when recieving his sight, before arising to be water baptised.

Already corrected any kind of semi-newbirth by the Holy GHost, waiting on men's hands for the Holy Ghost to have effect.

Dittoes for any kind of nearly-chosen vessel by the Lord, waiting on water to be really chosen.

Niether the Lord Himself nor His work of the Spirit, is bound by men's hands nor any natural thing, before having affect.


Already corrected the difference between the Spirit's baptism, and water baptism.

Christians certainly can be filled with the Holy Ghost coming out of baptismal water, but by the Scriptural record not necessary.


Already corrected the difference between born again believers obeying commanded works, and waiting to be 'fully' born again by a commanded work.




That's the tile of the thread alright. You're preaching to the choir.

And we're also warned against twisting Scriptures, ibn order to make them fit our own personal beliefs and rules.

In all the Scriptures you've quoted, you only preach one of them correctly, Acts 2:38. Every other scripture you seek to force-mould them to your own religion created out of Acts 2:38.

And yet, you also twist Acts 2:38 into a for all newborn believers, whether Jew or Gentile, and not only to those law-keeping devout Jews, that were gathered together from afar at Jerusalem for Pentecost.

The message originally preached at Pentecost was ultimately carried to individuals in every group of humanity; Jew, Samaritan, and Gentile (Acts 2, 8. 10, 19). None was exempt, all believers in Jesus were required to repent, be water baptized to have their sins washed away, and to receive the Holy Ghost as well.

I see it's of no use to continue going around in circles. But you may want to revisit the NT rebirth accounts. And the reason to do so is found in the following scriptures: (2 Tim. 3:16, Matt. 22:29, Heb. 4:12, Psa. 119:105).

 

[Inquisitor]

But not with the bad judgment you have now.

How do you know I have bad judgement?

If we don't judge according to Scripture, then we shall be judged by Scripture.

We are led by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit teaches us to love others as Christ has loved us.

1 Thessalonians 4:9
Now as to the love of the brothers and sisters, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught
by God to love one another.

 

[GWH]

Jesus said all will be judged by the Word. And it states water baptism is an essential element of salvation:

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:15-16

"Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord...." Acts 10 43, 47-48

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16

I know what Acts says, and I know what Paul taught, and here once again is my harmonization:

Actsists believe that the history of the early church in Acts 1-10 (and Mark 16:16-17) makes water baptism (WB) mandatory for Christians. Folks need to stop worshipping the physical symbols and focus on what they represent. Like physical circumcision (PC) water baptism is an outward work that is appropriate, but optional. It is the faith by which we receive the Holy Spirit that is required and manifested by loving fruit. God’s Word enters His people’s hearts when they repent of sins including legalism and accept Jesus as Messiah and Lord incarnate. He indwells believers as the Holy Spirit. Moral law describes what “living in the spirit” looks like.

The astute note that in Matt. 4:7 Jesus said “It is also written”, interpreting what Satan had quoted in light of another passage, which is called harmonizing Scripture and is what we should do, but some Judaizers want to require SB, just as the Pharisees required PC. Paul warned Christians to beware of Judaizers, who revert to teaching justification by observing the law (Gal. 4:8-5:12). In Phil. 3:1-9 Paul said, “Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord!… Watch out for those… mutilators of the flesh. For it is we who are the circumcision [cf. Rom. 2:29]… If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more:… in regard to the law, a Pharisee… as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ… I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ–that comes from God and is by faith.”

Jesus taught that his righteousness (Matt. 5:10&20) surpassed and superseded that of those who obeyed and taught the law (cf. Matt. 12:5-12, 19:3-9, Heb. 7:18-10:1). The law is represented by John the Baptist in Matt. 3:11a, “I baptize you with water [WB] for repentance” [forgiveness of sins indicated in the Torah, cf. Rom. 7:4-8:17], and Spirit baptism (SB) is indicated in Matt. 3:11b, “but after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”

The book of Acts does not teach foundational Christian doctrine but merely records what occurred during the early days of the church era as the revelation of God's requirement for salvation (GRFS) transitioned from OT beliefs to the NT doctrine that is taught in the epistles, which never command WB as essential for salvation, but only SB (Gal. 8:6, 1Cor. 12:13).

The transition can be seen as occurring in Acts 16:31-34, where Paul told the jailer to believe in the Lord Jesus in order to be saved, NOT to believe and be WB in order to be saved. However, the jailer and others in his family who believed in God were WB.

Then in Acts 17:30-34 Paul told the Athenians to repent, which some did, but whether they were WB is not mentioned.
Then in Acts 19:1-6 Paul encountered some disciples of John who had been WB but had not been taught about SB, so they received SB when Paul placed his hands on them.
Then in Acts 26:16-18, when Paul recounted his calling to King Agrippa, he quoted Jesus as saying, “I am sending you to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.” WB was not mentioned, which continued to be the case in Paul’s epistles.

The foundation cited in 1Corinthisans 3:11 is Christ, referring to faith in Christ’s atonement (Rom. 3:12-5:1). Instructions about baptisms are mentioned in Hebrews 6:2, which logically, semantically, and mathematically had to be that WB is a sign or rite portraying a soul has been SB (Col. 2:12), since there is only one baptism (Eph. 4:5) into one body (Eph. 4:4, 1Cor. 12:13). This understanding was held by Christians generally until RC perverted it by practicing infant sprinkling, which was corrected by the Anabaptists during the Protestant Reformation.

By the last of Paul’s epistles, WB came to be understood as a good but non-essential work or rite, like physical circumcision, and the basis for believing folks are filled with the HS is reflecting God’s love for everyone (Matt. 22:37-40, 1John 4:7-21, John 13:35, Rom. 5:5, Gal. 5:6 & 22, etc.). Then, like now, the rite is performed as an apt way of portraying saving faith in the atonement of Christ, even though the work is not required, just as PC was not required for salvation either per Paul in Romans 3:21-5:1.

This why the harmonization of Acts with the Epistles is this: Sinners are saved when they satisfy God's requirement for salvation, which is lifelong faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord, and willingness to cooperate with God's loving Holy Spirit is manifested by various fruit/works that may include water baptism, but no specific work is sacramental/salvific.

 

[ATG]

I can see you struggling to make sense of your theology, because it doesn't line up with the Bible.

I can see you are now struggling to continue ignoring the Scriptures given and taught.

You're still holing on to the idea that, sinners are saved by the "name it and claim it, version of the gospel".

And so, you now therefore throw around senseless straw.

The only sinners that 'name it and claim it', are those saying they are 'saved and justified', while transgressing the Lord's commandment.

While the truth is, sinners don't get to choose or claim anything, because they are dead in their sin.

True. If we are transgressing the Lord's commandment, we are dead in our sin.

Rather than choosing to claim salvation and justification, we must repent and be saved and justified by Jesus Christ Himself.

You still haven't accepted the the fact that God is absolutely sovereign over every single aspect of His creation.

True. All His natural creation is ruled by His natural law.

God is not ruling the evil doers, that rule themselves by their own will alone. However, God does have preeminence over all living things, and so chooses to have have daily mercy on the natural bodies of transgressors, not to die in sin.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If we are transgressing the Lord, tomorrow is not promised; Therefore we ought repent today, while today is. For all natural bodies are just smoke, and the trasngressor can die in any moment of time.

2 Cor 6:2
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Heb 4:7
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Heb 3:13
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Jas 4:14
Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

He predestined the salvation of every single one of His elect. He wrote our names in His book before the world was created.

Well then, there we have it. Never met a predeterminator, that was not one of the pre-elect before born. Nor one that didn't condemn other non-pre-chosen people, while doing the same unrighteousness as they.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Mar 2:17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mat 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

All are called unto repentance, the few that repent are chosen.

The book was closed back then and no new names can be added or removed, it's a done deal and it's not negotiable.

Exo 32:33
And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Rev{3:4}
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The names of all men and women created in the image of God, are written in the Book of Life. All that sin and transgress against God are blotted out of the book of life.

Rev 21:25
And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

All that repent from our transgressions are born again and written in the Lamb's Book of Life. All that die in our unrepented sin and transgression, remain blotted out of the Book of life forever.

Rev{20:12}
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works….And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[ATG]

The Bible reveals that believers are "dead to sin". In Romans 6:2 and Romans 6:11, the Apostle Paul asks, "How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" and instructs believers to "consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus".

Believers not doing unrighteousness, are dead to sin. Doers of unrighteousness are dead to God.

Trasngressors 'considering themselves' dead to sin and alive to God, are not dead to sin and alive to God in deed and in truth, but only in mouth and tongue.

1Jo 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Believers are spiritually joined to Jesus. When Christ died on the cross, His death counted as the believer's death. Therefore, the old self was crucified with Him.

No man was crucified with Jesus on His cross.

We all that have sinned, were counted as the unbelieving crucifies of Jesus on the cross, not just the wicked hands that slew Him.

Psa 51:4
Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Act 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

If we are transgressing against Him today, we are crufying Him to ourselves afresh.

Only if we repent and mortify our own wicked deeds, do we take up our own cross and crucify ourselves for Christ's sake.

Mar 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This is a once-for-all radical break from the dominion of sin.

If we are sinning against Christ, we are servant to sin of the devil.

Jhn 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever is committing sin is the servant of sin.

1Jo 3:8
He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil is sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Peter{2:19}
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Action flows from your new identity.

Wicked action only flows from wicked hearts.

1Sa 24:13
As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:

Mat 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

We are what we do. We are not what we identify ourselves apart from our works. We are wholly new creatures in Christ Jesus, not new identities.

Not identities are not new creatures, but old creatures with new identity. Identity Christianity is for transgressors identifying themselves with Christ in name, but not walking with Jesus in deed and in truth.

Being dead to sin does not mean a believer stops sinning entirely.

Rom 16:18
By good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
A sinner can take on the identity of the righteous, but we can only be righteous by doing righteousness:
1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.