... but what does the Bible say about sin?

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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#21
E.G. have you ever heard me once insist that I was perfect or advocate sinless perfection? You coudn't have because I never have.

I was just responding and adding problems I see in the church.


I take Romans 8 very seriously, that if we seek to walk in the Spirit then we should be able to turn from the lusts of the flesh because we draw our strength directly from Him. Our eyes are set on His love for us and we respond to Him and others in like manner. That's not to say that we won't stumble from time to time and that's what repentance / forgiveness is for. However, if we truly abide in Him, then there is no excuse for intentional - premeditated sin.
I agree. However. Sin does not happen by accident. It happens only because we want it to (we might not but our flesh does. And our flesh sometimes is strong.

The indwelling Holy Spirit is the very essence of grace, in us and through us. I just don't see how a person can come to the conclusion that one can be both Completely Depraved and Filled with the Holy Spirit simultaneously. Contrary to popular belief, the Holy Spirit is not a bunji cord keeping us from falling into hell as we fulfill our own selfish desires.
We can't be in the flesh and in the spirit at the same time. I have never claimed this. nor does anyone I know. That is what Paul spoke of in John 7. He flesh r=wrestles against the spirit, and out of it comes sin..

Rom 8 is telling us how we can victory.

And it works!!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#22
However, holiness is actually a close intimate relationship with the author our of our salvation (Christ) who downloads His Divine nature (which is grace) into our very being.
show me a 'download" (infusion) of Christ's Divine nature defined as Grace in the following passage:

New International Version(©1984)
and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

New Living Translation(©2007)
Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.

English Standard Version(©2001)
and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

New American Standard Bible(©1995)
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

International Standard Version(©2008)
By his grace they are justified freely through the redemption that is in the Messiah Jesus,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And are made right by grace without charge and by the redemption that exists in Yeshua The Messiah,

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

American King James Version
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

American Standard Version
being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Bible in Basic English
And they may have righteousness put to their credit, freely, by his grace, through the salvation which is in Christ Jesus:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption, that is in Christ Jesus,

Darby Bible Translation
being justified freely by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

English Revised Version
being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Webster's Bible Translation
Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ:

Weymouth New Testament
gaining acquittal from guilt by His free unpurchased grace through the deliverance which is found in Christ Jesus.

World English Bible
being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;

Young's Literal Translation
being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

~

Infused righteousness forms the basis for the doctrine of justification in the Roman Catholic Church and it rooted in the theology of Thomas Aquinas. The doctrine states that through keeping the commands of Christ, regular confession and penance, and receiving the sacraments, God’s grace/righteousness is “infused” in believers more and more over time, and their own “righteousness in the flesh” becomes subsumed into God’s righteousness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infused_righteousness
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#23
E.G. have you ever heard me once insist that I was perfect or advocate sinless perfection? You coudn't have because I never have.

I take Romans 8 very seriously, that if we seek to walk in the Spirit then we should be able to turn from the lusts of the flesh because we draw our strength directly from Him. Our eyes are set on His love for us and we respond to Him and others in like manner. That's not to say that we won't stumble from time to time and that's what repentance / forgiveness is for. However, if we truly abide in Him, then there is no excuse for intentional - premeditated sin.

The indwelling Holy Spirit is the very essence of grace, in us and through us. I just don't see how a person can come to the conclusion that one can be both Completely Depraved and Filled with the Holy Spirit simultaneously. Contrary to popular belief, the Holy Spirit is not a bunji cord keeping us from falling into hell as we fulfill our own selfish desires.
if you take Romans 8 seriously, please seriously exegete it and show it is describing Spiritual Christians who "walk in the Spirit" compared to Carnal Christians who walk in the flesh.

Romans 8
Life in the Spirit
1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set youb free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,c he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Heirs with Christ
12So then, brothers,d we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sonse of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Future Glory
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, becausef the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,g for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can beh against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.i 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#24
For the record, I talk about grace a lot. I simply view grace differently than many of you.

To me, the grace of God is more than something we receive, it us also something that we give. Grace is both alive and active in our lives, changing the way we think and feel toward God and others. To me you can not receive grace from God without that grace manifesting in your actions toward others.

I will be the first to admit that in the past, understanding grace was never my strong point. I have seen so many abuse grace that for years, I tuned anything they had to say about grace because it was obvious to me that their understanding clearly conflicted with the Bible's teaching of grace.

However, God Himself has been dealing with me about grace, especially how grace is more than merely forgiveness of sin, but rather, how grace is the essence of our entire Christian experience. To limit grace as nothing more than forgiveness of sin a limited, humanistic perspective of grace, not a divine, spiritual perspective.

As I read about the Holy Spirit and His Divine attributes, it has become crystal clear to me why Christ refers to Him as "another comforter'. Every single attribute lines up with the grace of God. This tells me that the Holy Spirit is the embodiment of grace in our lives and that, if we are to truly understand and walk in grace, the indwelling Holy Spirit is our source. This also tells me that to walk in the Holy Spirit is to walk in grace also.

I am also confident that if we are willing embrace the Divine nature, seldom will we fulfill the desires of the flesh. How? Because our actions are fueled by the grace of God and not our own sense of selfishness. Wouldn't you agree that's hard to wish bad things on someone (inspired by flesh) when you desire nothing but the best for them (inspired grace)?

It is my hope that you all can see where I'm coming from concerning this point. By no means am I advocating legalism or attempting to exalt the flesh. My intentions are to help others view grace from an entirely different perspective than they might be used to. A perspective where it is the grace of God which is the power to overcome sin in our lives.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#25
grace and love....a little muddled here..but i see what your experiencing.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#26
As I read about the Holy Spirit and His Divine attributes, it has become crystal clear to me why Christ refers to Him as "another comforter'. .


New International Version(©1984)
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

New Living Translation(©2007)
The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

English Standard Version(©2001)
who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

New American Standard Bible(©1995)
who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


QUESTION:
did God send the Comforter as a guarantee/earnest?


QUESTION:
what is a guarantee?

728. arrabón

arrabón: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)​
Original Word: ἀρραβών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: arrabón
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-hrab-ohn')
Short Definition: an earnest, earnest-money
Definition: an earnest, earnest-money, a large part of the payment, given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards.

728 arrhabṓn – properly, an installment; a deposit ("down-payment") which guarantees the balance (the full purchase-price).

728 /arrhabṓn ("down-payment pledge") is the regular term in NT times for "earnest-money," i.e. advance-payment that guarantees the rest will be given. 728 (arrhabṓn) then represents full security backed by the purchaser who supplies sufficient proof they will fulfill the entire pledge (promise).

[728 (arrhabṓn) is common in the papyri for "down payment/earnest money" and hence frequent in business documents and agreements.]


QUESTION:
can God be trusted in a 'transaction' such as this?


QUESTION:
when are you going to get honest and admit that you are trying to tell most of us we simply are not saved because we do not "walk in the Spirit"?
 
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C

Crossfire

Guest
#27
Zone,

I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what I say, you will contradict me, regardless of what I say is true or not. Your agenda against anyone who believes that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still for today is duly noted.

I don't respond to your posts because I don't read them. The reason I don't read them is because the bulk of them are usually inflammatory and I am not here to argue with you or anyone. Can you say the same?


Anyways, my heart does go out to you. I pray that you will desire to know God on an personal, intimate level rather than through the writings of your preferred theologians. I used to do that and it made me cold and bitter. Thankfully, God is both graceful and faithful. He personally saw fit to pull me out of the quagmire that is spiritually dead religion which can only result in sin and complacency, and He set both my eyes and my heart on Him and I am completely captivated by Who and What He is.

I do pray He will do the same for you.
 
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damombomb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2011
3,801
68
48
#28
matt6:24 says we can,t serve two masters, we will love one and hate the other, so if we love Jesus we will have the fruit, he will also convict us and
chastise whom he loves
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#29
grace and love....a little muddled here..but i see what your experiencing.
Thank you. For me, grace is but an extension of His Divine love thus there really is no separation. But that's just my take. :)
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#30
matt6:24 says we can,t serve two masters, we will love one and hate the other, so if we love Jesus we will have the fruit, he will also convict us and
chastise whom he loves
I couldn't agree more. :)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#31
Zone,

I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what I say, you will contradict me, regardless of what I say is true or not. .
nonsense.
if what you say is true i will agree.

Your agenda against anyone who believes that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still for today is duly noted. .
agenda?
charismatic/continuationist theology is false doctrine.
it's the problem with most of your teaching.

I don't respond to your posts because I don't read them..
that's fine. i don't need you to like me or read my posts, your lack of response to requests such as to properly divide Romans 8 shows where you're coming from.

The reason I don't read them is because the bulk of them are usually inflammatory..
that's a word.
it means you don't like cessationism, and you don't like refutation of carnal christian heresy.
you don't like Jezebel coming against the New Apostles.

and I am not here to argue with you or anyone..
if agenda is the word of the day: you have your own.

Can you say the same? ..
about you? not really.

Anyways, my heart does go out to you. I pray that you will desire to know God on an personal, intimate level rather than through the writings of your preferred theologians. I used to do that and it made me cold and bitter..
that's sweet. thank you.

re: your theologians -
finneyian theology will do that to a man.

Thankfully, God is both graceful and faithful. He personally saw fit to pull me out of the quagmire that is spiritual dead religion which can only result in sin and complacency, and He set both my eyes and my heart on Him and I am completely captivated by Who and What He is.

I do pray He will do the same for you.
yes.
well, something pulled you into the NAR and apostles and prophets and finney.
it wasn't God.

experientialism makes a man very proud of his achievements.
 
Oct 2, 2011
416
3
0
#32
Zone,

I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what I say, you will contradict me, regardless of what I say is true or not. Your agenda against anyone who believes that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still for today is duly noted.

I don't respond to your posts because I don't read them. The reason I don't read them is because the bulk of them are usually inflammatory and I am not here to argue with you or anyone. Can you say the same?


Anyways, my heart does go out to you. I pray that you will desire to know God on an personal, intimate level rather than through the writings of your preferred theologians. I used to do that and it made me cold and bitter. Thankfully, God is both graceful and faithful. He personally saw fit to pull me out of the quagmire that is spiritually dead religion which can only result in sin and complacency, and He set both my eyes and my heart on Him and I am completely captivated by Who and What He is.

I do pray He will do the same for you.
This is said but true

To Zone, eg, or anyone else this may apply to, If one who claims to know Jesus attacks one who truly seeks to honor Him and live holy there is a problem.

Why do you attack all who speak of love, obedience, righteousness, and holiness?
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#33
nonsense.
if what you say is true i will agree.



agenda?
charismatic/continuationist theology is false doctrine.
it's the problem with most of your teaching.



that's fine. i don't need you to like me or read my posts, your lack of response to requests such as to properly divide Romans 8 shows where you're coming from.



that's a word.
it means you don't like cessationism, and you don't like refutation of carnal christian heresy.
you don't like Jezebel coming against the New Apostles.



if agenda is the word of the day: you have your own.



about you? not really.



that's sweet. thank you.

re: your theologians -
finneyian theology will do that to a man.



yes.
well, something pulled you into the NAR and apostles and prophets and finney.
it wasn't God.

experientialism makes a man very proud of his achievements.

Zone,

When the fruit of His Divine grace becomes evident your posts, then we will talk.

 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#34
This is said but true

To Zone, eg, or anyone else this may apply to, If one who claims to know Jesus attacks one who truly seeks to honor Him and live holy there is a problem.

Why do you attack all who speak of love, obedience, righteousness, and holiness?
you have zero credibility.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#36
matt6:24 says we can,t serve two masters, we will love one and hate the other, so if we love Jesus we will have the fruit, he will also convict us and
chastise whom he loves
that's right.
but if we do not sin, there's no chastisement.
if there is no chastisement, we are not His.

who here is without sin?
several apparently.

no truth in them.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#38
Zone,

When the fruit of His Divine grace becomes evident your posts, then we will talk.
thanks.
if that means pretending i'm an apostle or prophet, no thanks.
 
Oct 2, 2011
416
3
0
#39
ever read a book by this man?

Lou Engle
TheCall

you're sinless....yes or no.
Im not sure what you point is, do you like him or despise him? If you like him I am sure I would not want to read any book he has written. If you despise him then my guess would be he is a great man of God
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#40
thanks.
if that means pretending i'm an apostle or prophet, no thanks.
Seldom do I even mention my views concerning Continuationism except when they are under assault by someone else. I don't push my views because I don't feel that they are requirement for salvation. The same with my views on eschotology.

The way I see it, if we are incapable of expressing the love of God for others then we have no business attempting to teach anyone anything. Regardless if our words are true, our bitter actions will only drive them away thus we become a bigger hinderence to both the truth and the cause of Christ than a help.