The New Perspective on Paul

[zone]

from: Monergism.com

October 24, 2011

Dr. Riddlebarger's Lectures on the New Perspectives on Paul

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Why a New Perspective on Paul? What's Wrong With the Old Perspective? (MP3)

The Attack Upon the "Lutheran" Paul -- Krister Stendahl and the "Introspective Conscience" (MP3)

Pelagian Jews? E. P. Sanders, Grace v. Works and Second Temple Judaism (MP3)

Why Can't We All Get Along? James D. G. Dunn on Jews and Gentiles in the Apostolic Church (MP3)

N. T. Wright's Perspective on Paul: An Introduction to N. T. Wright's Approach to Paul." (MP3)

An Interesting Dialogue Between James Dunn and N. T. Wright." (MP3) <-- i skipped this one.

A Response to the New Perspectives on Paul -- Part One" (MP3)

A Evaluation of the New Perspectives on Paul -- Part Two" (MP3)

http://www.monergism.com/mp3/

~

for anyone with a little familiarity with 'The New Perspective on Paul', this is an outstanding lecture series by Kim Riddlebarger (one of my favs).

its fast-moving and he covers a lot of ground - close attention required (stayed up all night i enjoyed them so much)

the intro starts by introducing the players and many names and groups/movements. anyone outside of, or not aware of Lutheran & Reformed doctrines won't get much of that...makes no difference:
once past that he get to the matter.

this issue has really far-reaching consequences: in a nutshell, the proponents of this New Perspective have to do away with core doctrines (naturally)...if anyone does listen, you'll be quite amused and/or shocked to discover what those doctrines are, and why this movement has taken hold.

you'll also recognize many patterns we hear 'round these parts regularly, coming from what seem unlikely sources...helpful in the building up of faith to see there really are just the same few ways the Gospel can be attacked, though astonishing to see how its done.

this isn't for everyone - they are academic lectures and as mentioned are fast-paced: but i was VERY blessed and learned much: lots of church history, the other denoms are covered, and he touches on trends in evangelicalism.

part of the overall message is a very comforting one for we Lutheran & Reformed: the reformers are vindicated yet again in their understanding of Paul's message..... in spite of the relentless propaganda campaigns, and this 'new' frontal assault.

z.

 

[AnandaHya]

hmmm interesting...

New Perceptive

1. Luther got Paul wrong?

 

[distinctiveministry]

You two may be the least tolerant people I know. ANYTHING but reformed doctrine and you declare WAR. There is no discussion with either of you, only debates, wars of words, and, eventually, insulting comments, pictures and the like.

At least have the decency to respect that other people who disagree with you may occasionally be intelligent Christians with profound insight and deep faith. Invite people to participate in DISCUSSION, where things can be intelligently examined and no conclusions are required, much less your usual insults.

 

[jimmydiggs]

You two may be the least tolerant people I know. ANYTHING but reformed doctrine and you declare WAR. There is no discussion with either of you, only debates, wars of words, and, eventually, insulting comments, pictures and the like.

How come you attack them but not me? That's not fair! They don't deserve all the attention.

At least have the decency to respect that other people who disagree with you may occasionally be intelligent Christians with profound insight and deep faith. Invite people to participate in DISCUSSION, where things can be intelligently examined and no conclusions are required, much less your usual insults.

You may have something intelligent to say, but if it disagrees with the bible then no way jose. So that whole, non-trinitarian thing... yeah... no way jose.


EDIT: I didn't know ananda was reformed now.... :/

 

[zone]

hmmm interesting...

New Perceptive

1. Luther got Paul wrong?

no...the NP guys got Luther wrong

 

[zone]

You two may be the least tolerant people I know. ANYTHING but reformed doctrine and you declare WAR. There is no discussion with either of you, only debates, wars of words, and, eventually, insulting comments, pictures and the like.

At least have the decency to respect that other people who disagree with you may occasionally be intelligent Christians with profound insight and deep faith. Invite people to participate in DISCUSSION, where things can be intelligently examined and no conclusions are required, much less your usual insults.

uh....

i count 3 posts to yours.
the OP where i simply offered a lecture series.

then ana who asked a simple question.

then this from you. like....wait. what?
are you serious?

debate and discuss away DM. did you listen to the lectures or....do you want to discuss the NP?
go for it.

 

[distinctiveministry]

I've tried talking about the NP before. You discredit it out of hand or tell me to go look at this or that article/sermon/lecture. The point is that you don't post this stuff to invite discussion, you post it to draw the NP people into a debate and try to persuade them that they are wrong. Be honest, you have zero interest in NP in terms of actually learning about it- your mind is long since made up. Your OP is nothing but an invitation to do theological battle.

 

[distinctiveministry]

How come you attack them but not me? That's not fair! They don't deserve all the attention.



You may have something intelligent to say, but if it disagrees with the bible then no way jose. So that whole, non-trinitarian thing... yeah... no way jose.


EDIT: I didn't know ananda was reformed now.... :/

You're right about ananda- I should have mentioned abiding, but otherwise the point stands about all three of them- they are picking fights not engaging people in honest conversation.

 

[zone]

I've tried talking about the NP before. You discredit it out of hand or tell me to go look at this or that article/sermon/lecture. The point is that you don't post this stuff to invite discussion, you post it to draw the NP people into a debate and try to persuade them that they are wrong. Be honest, you have zero interest in NP in terms of actually learning about it- your mind is long since made up. Your OP is nothing but an invitation to do theological battle.

hi DM.
well....is there a possibility i have learned about it and that's why i discuss it?

i don't discredit anything out of hand DM. i learn about it first, as do you.

this thread is simply called

Re: The New Perspective on Paul

so by all means, it would be good to have somebody from the NP camp personally post on it.

Your OP is nothing but an invitation to do theological battle

uh. i posted lectures by Kim Riddlebarger.
i mentioned the core (reformed) doctrines which must be collapsed or ignored or reworked for the NP to 'work'. so?

do as you like.

 

[Abiding]

You're right about ananda- I should have mentioned abiding, but otherwise the point stands about all three of them- they are picking fights not engaging people in honest conversation.

I seen this and thought:
hmm i dont know you so i had to go back to see any dialogue with you. What i found was that i did
post a (kind brief)response to your op and you came back to me with first an attempt to be witty...then this:

Does beastiality tempt you? Crack cocaine? Abortion?

So i quit your socalled "honest conversation" Therefore unless there was another time i dont remember
im clueless(show me) what your talking about. I agree with zone...you can start an honest convo here.

 

[AnandaHya]

You're right about ananda- I should have mentioned abiding, but otherwise the point stands about all three of them- they are picking fights not engaging people in honest conversation.

does picking fights mean making a stand in what we believe?

even though the three of us do NOT agree about everything. We are willing to discuss our beliefs with those who wish to engage in dialog.

Are you being honest with yourself or did you jump in this thread to pick a fight?

what does "honest conversation" mean to you?

where you lie to each other and pretend you agree even if you don't for the sake of false "unity"? where you remain silent when you believe another is deluding themselves because of fake "compassion" or "friendship"? You know where I stand on various topics and if you don't you can ask me and I will either answer, tell you I don't know, or that its none of your business. I don't believe in pretending to agree with someone who is teaching things that go against the Bible. I ask questions to better understand others positions. If that is considered "picking fights" then how about you show us how its done? why don't you engage in this "honest conversation" you preach instead of "picking fights."

You are making a thread that has nothing to do with you into a personal attack against yourself so that you feel the need to have an unwarranted outburst of anger. have you read Galatians 5: 20?

why are you scared of actually saying what you mean and believe about the BIBLE and JESUS and His salvation but would rather make personal ad hominem attacks?

I take it from your reaction you believe in the New Perspective movement?

 

[cronjecj]

You two may be the least tolerant people I know. ANYTHING but reformed doctrine and you declare WAR. There is no discussion with either of you, only debates, wars of words, and, eventually, insulting comments, pictures and the like.

At least have the decency to respect that other people who disagree with you may occasionally be intelligent Christians with profound insight and deep faith. Invite people to participate in DISCUSSION, where things can be intelligently examined and no conclusions are required, much less your usual insults.

They never compromise truth even if it means more enemies.

 

[AnandaHya]

You two may be the least tolerant people I know. I have patience with people just not all the lies people like to pretend are the truth.

ANYTHING but reformed doctrine and you declare WAR. ??? sorry one out of three people you named is reformed, though I agree with a lot of their doctrines, I don't declare war on others.

There is no discussion with either of you, have you actually tried?

only debates, you have some selective reading glasses?

wars of words, mmm is that how you define discussion?

and, eventually, insulting comments, yes you are very good at flinging those...

pictures and the like.

At least have the decency to respect that other people who disagree with you may occasionally be intelligent Christians with profound insight and deep faith. actually all the people I engage conversation with I believe to be intelligent. whether they are Christian, have deep faith or profound insight must be determined by an individual basis.

Invite people to participate in DISCUSSION, where things can be intelligently examined and no conclusions are required, much less your usual insults.

so that is where you and I disagree.

how can you intelligently examine things and "no conclusions are required" be your basis of what you call a discussion. no matter if you admit it or not you will come to a conclusion. whether you share it or not you will decide one way or another.

otherwise you are lukewarm without any convictions. Standing for nothing and falling for everything.

If you find that insulting it was not meant to be. It is merely a statement of truth. God demanded for us to choice whom we shall serve.

He did not ask for us to compromise and pander to the feelings of the world but to stand for HIM and His truth.

If I am wrong I would rather someone tell me that I'm wrong and give me Bible verses to support why, then pretend to be my friend as I shipwreck because I believed lies. That is not true friendship, that is not true love.

 

[jimmydiggs]

You're right about ananda- I should have mentioned abiding, but otherwise the point stands about all three of them- they are picking fights not engaging people in honest conversation.

Hey! That's not fair. You keep attacking and criticising them and not me! Can't you see the avatar bro?

 

[AnandaHya]

Hey! That's not fair. You keep attacking and criticising them and not me! Can't you see the avatar bro?

lol Jimmy don't you know you got to do a little more than that,

you have to loudly proclaim that there is a ABSOLUTE TRUTH that GOD reveals and people are sometimes WRONG and should be told they are wrong so that they might repent and turn from their sins to the TRUTH found in Christ Jesus and His holy revealed words as found in the BIBLE. that other religions are WRONG and pretending that they are ok and might lead to GOD for the sake of "peace" and getting alone with others is sinful and deceptive. that some people are mixing other religious thoughts into Christianity and pretending it is Biblical is also WRONG and should be spoken against.

keep doing that for a few days and the postmodernists will be all over insulting and attacking you.

 

[distinctiveministry]

I seen this and thought:
hmm i dont know you so i had to go back to see any dialogue with you. What i found was that i did
post a (kind brief)response to your op and you came back to me with first an attempt to be witty...then this:

Does beastiality tempt you? Crack cocaine? Abortion?

So i quit your socalled "honest conversation" Therefore unless there was another time i dont remember
im clueless(show me) what your talking about. I agree with zone...you can start an honest convo here.

I asked questions to which the answer is obviously "no" in order to make a point about temptation. Your refusal to answer is why you didn't understand the question.

Also, we've got a much more extensive history on CC than you acknowledge.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Ananda, I just don't like not being attacked for standing on the bible. It makes me feel like I haven't done something right for a few days.

 

[distinctiveministry]

Hey! That's not fair. You keep attacking and criticising them and not me! Can't you see the avatar bro?

I don't have a problem with people prefering reformed theology. I have a problem with the attitudes of some people and their incessant belittling and demeaning of others on CC.

 

[jimmydiggs]

I don't have a problem with people prefering reformed theology. I have a problem with the attitudes of some people and their incessant belittling and demeaning of others on CC.

It's not a preference.

 

[Descyple]

Greetings Zone. Thank you for posting all those links about "The New Perspective on Paul", I will definitely check them out. I've only heard one discussion on the topic thus far, but I found it very insightful and helpful. It is a 5-person panel discussion with Albert Mohler leading the talk. They deal specifically with N.T. Wright's view of justification. The video link is below:

N.T. Wright and the Doctrine of Justification: A Panel Discussion