The elephant in the room

[Citizen]

Why is it oppressive? for defending the sovereignty of their people or for protecting their religious laws?

Clearly you and apparently @Churchgoer don't view child marriage [pedophilia], honor killings of women and girls, extreme discrimination against women, torture and abuse of citizens including children as wrong or a problem.

Christians do. If you're here to convince us these things aren't evil and oppressive, you're wasting your time.

Beyond the hijab: discrimination against women pervades Iranian law

Camel-denominated blood money and minutes-long temporary marriages are among the peculiar features of a medieval theocratic legal system by which Iran systematically enforces second-class citizenship on women.

www.iranintl.com

Iran's brutal protest crackdown: Child detainees subjected to torture

Children, some as young as 12 years old, have been subjected to torture, including flogging, electric shocks, rape and other forms of sexual violence, all to suppress their participation in nationwide protests.

www.amnesty.org

Torture in Iran

The Iranian government has used torture to create fear and suppress political dissent for decades. Read our report documenting the widespread use of Torture in Iran since the 1980s and as recently as 2015.

www.freedomfromtorture.org

"Iran: Former child bride faces execution by hanging" - Women Living Under Muslim Laws calls for action

"Iran: Former child bride faces execution by hanging" - Women Living Under Muslim Laws calls for action

www.girlsnotbrides.org

https://mei.edu/ar/publication/iranian-women-campaign-stop-rise-honor-killings/

The trend of girl child marriage in Iran based on national census data - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Gender Apartheid in Iran is Crushing Women’s Lives and Futures

This International Women’s Day, the World Must Declare Gender Apartheid a Crime Against Humanity March 6, 2025 — In Iran, women are second-class citizens—systematically oppressed by laws and policies that serve only one purpose: to entrench the power of the government. For over four decades, the...

iranhumanrights.org

World Report 2024: Rights Trends in Iran

www.hrw.org

Iran: New compulsory veiling law intensifies oppression of women and girls

Update 17 December 2024:**On 14 December 2024, state media reported that the promulgation of the law has been temporarily paused.** Iranian authorities have adopted a new draconian law that further erases the human rights of women and girls, imposing the death penalty, flogging, prison terms and...

www.amnesty.org

 

[Citizen]

I am a Christian JESUS CHRIST IS LORD and I pray for the Iranian people but I pray against their oppressive government.

Exactly. I hope and pray for the freedom of the citizens.

 

[Komentaja]

That was not the reason.

It is because too many churches in Europe are weak and pathetic in teaching sound Bible doctrine.

Jesus said if believers keep learning sound doctrine and obey Him? (as taught in good churches). That they become the salt of the earth.

In Jesus' day, salt was used as a preservative! Thus, having enough strong believers will preserve their land by God blessing their national security because of those positive believers.

But? Jesus also warned that if believers become weak in their lack of understanding of God's Word?
That the salt will lose its savor.
Which in turn, will become good for nothing, and thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. (by Islam)

“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? ​

It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men." Matthew 5:13​

Europe has many pathetic churches. The USA is heading that way as well!

NO SALT? Then Islam creeps in like mold on the bread.

.......

We aren't here to preserve political nations or empires. Think about what you are saying. Jesus said this during the pagan Roman Empire. The strongest 1st century Christians weren't in it to preserve the Roman Empire or even change it. We are to call people out of it, out of the world and into His kingdom

 

[Genez]

We aren't here to preserve political nations or empires. Think about what you are saying. Jesus said this during the pagan Roman Empire. The strongest 1st century Christians weren't in it to preserve the Roman Empire or even change it. We are to call people out of it, out of the world and into His kingdom

In spite of the political party in power.. We are here to preserve the security and peace of the land we live in, if that nation has enough believers who desire sound doctrine. Too much religion sinks the ship every time.

 

[Genez]

We aren't here to preserve political nations or empires. Think about what you are saying. Jesus said this during the pagan Roman Empire. The strongest 1st century Christians weren't in it to preserve the Roman Empire or even change it. We are to call people out of it, out of the world and into His kingdom

Look again, please?

​

“You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again?
It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot." Matthew 5:13​

That is why nations are destroyed in God's judgment!

It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."​

​

......​

 

[Citizen]

We aren't here to preserve political nations or empires. Think about what you are saying. Jesus said this during the pagan Roman Empire. The strongest 1st century Christians weren't in it to preserve the Roman Empire or even change it. We are to call people out of it, out of the world and into His kingdom

God Himself blesses and keeps [preserves] faithful nations, and will punish nations that disobey and reject Him. Do you think God-fearing nations should let themselves slide into apostasy and lawlessness without striving to preserve their faith? God says no, and there are consequences for not keeping faith -

Psalm 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord,
The people He has chosen for His own inheritance.

Jer 4:1 “If you will return, Israel,” declares the Lord,
“Then you should return to Me.
And if you will put away your detestable things from My presence,
And will not waver,
2 And if you will swear, ‘As the Lord lives,’
In truth, in justice, and in righteousness;
Then the nations will bless themselves in Him,
And in Him they will boast.”

Deut 28 “Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the Lord your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I am commanding you today, that the Lord your God will put you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings will come to you and reach you if you obey the Lord your God:

Deut 28:15 “But it shall come about, if you do not obey the Lord your God, to be careful to follow all His commandments and His statutes which I am commanding you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you...

Isa 10-23 Judgment and pronouncements against kingdoms/empires/nations

Isa 60: 12 For the nation and the kingdom which will not serve you will perish,
And the nations will be utterly ruined.

Just as God commands individuals to repent, turn to Him, and remain faithful, the same applies to nations.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

God Himself blesses and keeps [preserves] faithful nations, and will punish nations that disobey and reject Him. Do you think God-fearing nations should let themselves slide into apostasy and lawlessness without striving to preserve their faith? God says no, and there are consequences for not keeping faith -

Psalm 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord,
The people He has chosen for His own inheritance.

Jer 4:1 “If you will return, Israel,” declares the Lord,
“Then you should return to Me.
And if you will put away your detestable things from My presence,
And will not waver,
2 And if you will swear, ‘As the Lord lives,’
In truth, in justice, and in righteousness;
Then the nations will bless themselves in Him,
And in Him they will boast.”

Deut 28 “Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the Lord your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I am commanding you today, that the Lord your God will put you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings will come to you and reach you if you obey the Lord your God:

Deut 28:15 “But it shall come about, if you do not obey the Lord your God, to be careful to follow all His commandments and His statutes which I am commanding you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you...

Isa 10-23 Judgment and pronouncements against kingdoms/empires/nations

Isa 60: 12 For the nation and the kingdom which will not serve you will perish,
And the nations will be utterly ruined.

Just as God commands individuals to repent, turn to Him, and remain faithful, the same applies to nations.

That's why Europe was conquered without firing a shot when they put themselves under the control of the EU.

The US is in trouble too if we keep watering down the gospel with cheap grace.

 

[Genez]

That's why Europe was conquered without firing a shot when they put themselves under the control of the EU.

The US is in trouble too if we keep watering down the gospel with cheap grace.

It is not the Gospel that causes salt of the earth.
No one is going to perish when it comes to salvation....

What produces "salt of the earth' are Christians who will not refuse to accept sound doctrine and the corrections which must come our way. On the road to what would lead us to maturity in Christ. It is distorted teachings and emotional rebellion that cause too many believers to fall short of entering into spiritual maturity.

Without sound doctrinal teachings we will not have a clue as to what is to be learned and walked in by means of grace in the Spirit.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Isaiah 55:8-9

 

[OMC]

It is not the Gospel that causes salt of the earth.
No one is going to perish when it comes to salvation....

What produces "salt of the earth' are Christians who will not refuse to accept sound doctrine and the corrections which must come our way. On the road to what would lead us to maturity in Christ. It is distorted teachings and emotional rebellion that cause too many believers to fall short of entering into spiritual maturity.

Without sound doctrinal teachings we will not have a clue as to what is to be learned and walked in by means of grace in the Spirit.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Isaiah 55:8-9

Jesus teaches that His disciples are the “salt of the earth” (Matt. 5:13), and this saltiness is expressed through steadfast obedience, doctrinal faithfulness, and a life shaped by the Spirit. Yet Scripture is clear that it is the Gospel itself that saves—“the power of God unto salvation” (Rom. 1:16). Sound doctrine strengthens believers, but it does not replace the Gospel as the cause of salvation. Likewise, Scripture warns that many will perish apart from Christ (Matt. 7:13; John 3:18), so it is not true that “no one is going to perish.” What is true is that believers must cling to sound teaching, because distorted doctrine and rebellion hinder spiritual maturity (Eph. 4:14; 2 Tim. 4:3). Without the truth of Scripture, we cannot grow in grace or walk in the Spirit. Thus, the Gospel saves, sound doctrine preserves, and the Spirit matures—together producing the true “salt of the earth.”

 

[Genez]

Jesus teaches that His disciples are the “salt of the earth” (Matt. 5:13), and this saltiness is expressed through steadfast obedience, doctrinal faithfulness, and a life shaped by the Spirit. Yet Scripture is clear that it is the Gospel itself that saves—“the power of God unto salvation” (Rom. 1:16). Sound doctrine strengthens believers, but it does not replace the Gospel as the cause of salvation. Likewise, Scripture warns that many will perish apart from Christ (Matt. 7:13; John 3:18), so it is not true that “no one is going to perish.” What is true is that believers must cling to sound teaching, because distorted doctrine and rebellion hinder spiritual maturity (Eph. 4:14; 2 Tim. 4:3). Without the truth of Scripture, we cannot grow in grace or walk in the Spirit. Thus, the Gospel saves, sound doctrine preserves, and the Spirit matures—together producing the true “salt of the earth.”

Gospel is one thing.
Growing in grace and knowledge is another.

2 Peter 3:18 Weymouth New Testament

But be always growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
To Him be all glory, both now and to the day of Eternity!​

It is our acceptance of knowledge of sound doctrine that makes one into becoming "salt."

Jesus - who only taught sound doctrine - was speaking to his disciples, who were learning from him every day.
That is why He said they were "salt."

But we need to keep in mind something else!
He also warned them about losing their ability to be "salt."

When we submit to poor teachings?
Teachings designed to appeal to a believer's preferred and assumed way of seeing things?
He will end up becoming useless to God in His plan.

“You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again?
It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot." Mat 5:13


.......​

 

[OMC]

Gospel is one thing.
Growing in grace and knowledge is another.

The distinction you’re making is exactly the one Scripture itself insists on.
The Gospel is the once‑for‑all foundation, while growth in grace and knowledge is the lifelong process built on that foundation

 

[DavidLamb]

That's why Europe was conquered without firing a shot when they put themselves under the control of the EU.

The US is in trouble too if we keep watering down the gospel with cheap grace.

But membership of the EU is voluntary. Not all countries in the continent of Europe are members. Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, and the UK are not members. Some countries, like Norway, have never been members. The UK was in the EU, but voted to leave, and is no longer a member. So there is no "conquest" involved.

 

[GWH]

Islam is going to take over Europe that is for certain. Nothing can stop it as the europeans want open borders and the birth rates are abysmally low.

What changed since 1948? The state of Israel and the expulsion of the Arab population in the land. They say it belongs to them, the Jews say it belongs to them as well. Britain didn't do anyone any favors by basically double talking to both Jews and Arabs.

So true. How much better it would have been for the world to make Palestinians wealthy via paying them top dollar for legal title to property from the start rather than causing a much more expensive war that can only be ended by paying them now in accordance with Trump's vision for peace by making the area a tourist mecca.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

But membership of the EU is voluntary. Not all countries in the continent of Europe are members. Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, and the UK are not members. Some countries, like Norway, have never been members. The UK was in the EU, but voted to leave, and is no longer a member. So there is no "conquest" involved.

The Scandinavian countries were never part of the Roman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire.

The Bible said that three kings were subdued (no battle but political or economic control). I think the UK will be drawn back in as one of those subdued kings, kicking and screaming perhaps, but nevertheless subdued. This doesn't happen until the antichrist gains enough power so it's not happening right now.

I get that you don't want to believe it because you're in Europe, but please watch and build up your faith to endure to the end.

 

[DavidLamb]

The Scandinavian countries were never part of the Roman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire.

The Bible said that three kings were subdued (no battle but political or economic control). I think the UK will be drawn back in as one of those subdued kings, kicking and screaming perhaps, but nevertheless subdued. This doesn't happen until the antichrist gains enough power so it's not happening right now.

I get that you don't want to believe it because you're in Europe, but please watch and build up your faith to endure to the end.

When the UK joined the EU, it was voluntary. The EU didn't force us to join. When the UK population voted to leave the EU, we left. The EU didn't force us to stay. Nothing to do with kings being subdued. No country is dragged kicking and screaming into the EU. I am not quite sure what the antichrist has to do with it. The antichrist is mentioned just four times in the Bible:

NKJV 1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

None of those verses say anything about countries being dragged into, or back into, the EU after the appearance of the antichrist.

 

[Churchgoer]

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Ouch......

 

[Komentaja]

God Himself blesses and keeps [preserves] faithful nations, and will punish nations that disobey and reject Him. Do you think God-fearing nations should let themselves slide into apostasy and lawlessness without striving to preserve their faith? God says no, and there are consequences for not keeping faith -

Psalm 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord,
The people He has chosen for His own inheritance.

Jer 4:1 “If you will return, Israel,” declares the Lord,
“Then you should return to Me.
And if you will put away your detestable things from My presence,
And will not waver,
2 And if you will swear, ‘As the Lord lives,’
In truth, in justice, and in righteousness;
Then the nations will bless themselves in Him,
And in Him they will boast.”

Deut 28 “Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the Lord your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I am commanding you today, that the Lord your God will put you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings will come to you and reach you if you obey the Lord your God:

Deut 28:15 “But it shall come about, if you do not obey the Lord your God, to be careful to follow all His commandments and His statutes which I am commanding you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you...

Isa 10-23 Judgment and pronouncements against kingdoms/empires/nations

Isa 60: 12 For the nation and the kingdom which will not serve you will perish,
And the nations will be utterly ruined.

Just as God commands individuals to repent, turn to Him, and remain faithful, the same applies to nations.

There are no faithful nations. There has never been. You can say Israel in the past but look what happened to them?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

When the UK joined the EU, it was voluntary. The EU didn't force us to join. When the UK population voted to leave the EU, we left. The EU didn't force us to stay. Nothing to do with kings being subdued. No country is dragged kicking and screaming into the EU. I am not quite sure what the antichrist has to do with it. The antichrist is mentioned just four times in the Bible:

NKJV 1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

None of those verses say anything about countries being dragged into, or back into, the EU after the appearance of the antichrist.

Of course those verses don't say anything about any kings being subdued - the verses are in Daniel 7.

Daniel 7:20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

...

Daniel 7:23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.


Incidentally, the UK currently wants closer ties to the EU post-Brexit (click on title for article):

Labour seeking ‘deeper relationship’ with EU under Burnham, new minister says​

 

[DavidLamb]

Of course those verses don't say anything about any kings being subdued - the verses are in Daniel 7.

I was particularly referring to you comments about certain things happening after the appearance of the antichrist.

Daniel 7:20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

...

Daniel 7:23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

So you think Daniel 7 is referring to the EU? Do you really imagine the EU devouring the whole earth and crushing it?

Incidentally, the UK currently wants closer ties to the EU post-Brexit (click on title for article):

Labour seeking ‘deeper relationship’ with EU under Burnham, new minister says​

A "deeper relationship" with the EU certainly does not mean that the UK will be dragged kicking and screaming back into membership of the EU. I followed your link and the article is not saying that the minister concerned is advocating that the UK should rejoin the EU.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I was particularly referring to you comments about certain things happening after the appearance of the antichrist.

So you think Daniel 7 is referring to the EU? Do you really imagine the EU devouring the whole earth and crushing it?

A "deeper relationship" with the EU certainly does not mean that the UK will be dragged kicking and screaming back into membership of the EU. I followed your link and the article is not saying that the minister concerned is advocating that the UK should rejoin the EU.

Subdued means controlled. The UK doesn't need to be a member of the EU to be controlled. But I find it interesting that under the new prime minister, the UK wants to have closer ties to the EU.

And yes, I think Daniel 7 is referring to the EU when the antichrist rises to power - not now. Watch the EU elections in 2029. He might arise from that group of politicians.