Are you a monergist or a synergist?

[Cameron143]

reneweddaybyday said:

please explain how "knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death" equals "man continually" responding to God "ignorantly".​

do not agree they are "ignorant of their true estate before God". Romans 1:32 makes it quite clear they know the "judgment of God" ... they know they are "worthy of death" and they continue to rebel against God and take pleasure in those who do the same things.

"Ignorance" on the part of those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness is not what is indicated in Romans 1.

Romans 1:18-19 indicates "that which may be known of God is manifest in them for God hath shewed it unto them").

The words "manifest (Greek = phaneros)" and "hath shewed (Greek = phaneroō)" in verse 19 reveal that those who actively suppress the truth in unrighteousness have been shown. The verses emphasizes "for God hath shewed it unto them".

Romans 1:32 indicates "who knowing the judgment of God" ... the word "knowing" is translated from the Greek word epiginōskō which is the complete opposite of "ignorance".

The prefix epi intensifies the verb ginōskō which means to know, to possess knowledge; epiginōskō signifies a deep, thorough, and precise recognition.

Those who reject do not act out of "ignorance" ... they know their actions result in death and separation from God, and they continue to remain unwilling to submit to what God has revealed to them ... and then further, they encourage others to join with them in their reprobate activities and partner with them in their rebellion.

You are free to continue to insist these folks "live in ignorance", but you would not be in alignment with what is clearly revealed in Scripture.

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I tell someone to stop or they will fall over a cliff. They continue and fall to their death. Did they continue in ignorance? Yes and no. They understood what I said, so they continued knowingly. But they continued because they didn't believe they were actually going to die. They were ignorant of what would actually transpire. Unless you believe they willingly committed suicide.

 

[Journey_man]

Grace is always the cause, faith is always the means, and Scripture never merges them into one blended concept.
THATS WHAT I SAID, BECAUSE THATS WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS

No, that's not what scripture says at all. Both grace and faith are gifts that God sovereignly bestows upon His elect, when He regenerates us.

The Bible reveals that humans are spiritually dead because of sin. A dead person cannot choose God on their own. God must first give new life (regeneration). Once God changes the heart, He also gives the gift of faith. Ephesians 2:8–9, says faith is not from ourselves, but is a gift of God.

This means God does 100% of the work to save a person. Because grace and faith are both gifts, people cannot take any credit for saving themselves. God gets all the glory.

 

[OMC]

No, that's not what scripture says at all. Both grace and faith are gifts that God sovereignly bestows upon His elect, when He regenerates us

Paul says we are “justified freely by His grace” (grace = cause), yet he also says we are “justified by faith” (faith = means), and he never merges those two into a single mechanism; instead, he keeps them conceptually separate so that grace remains God’s action and faith remains the instrument by which the sinner receives it.

 

[Journey_man]

Run away?

There is much more to know and understand than the slice of pie you keep stuffing yourself with over and over.

You don't want to know what makes you think beyond what is simple for you to grasp.

Thank you for confirming what I always suspected, "ignorance is bliss".

 

[Journey_man]

You don't know what you need to know to know what the truth is.

Simple minds want simple solutions....
Not to grow, because instinctively they don't become a threat to the devil.

Quitters want to establish themselves in a comfort zone that makes them feel sure of themselves.
That is why the Devil pretty much leaves Calvinists and Arimians alone these days since they have built their own prison walls.

That sound like how you think?

Thanks for enlightening me with your wonderful philosophy, just when I thought I'd seen it all

 

[Journey_man]

Do not rely on your intellect to understand the revelation of Christ.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish
but for all to come to repentance.

It is not our Lord's desire or wish that anyone perish.

Why did you remove Gods Word out of the text and insert your word. Let me guess, you did it because you reject what God has said, as it exposes your "saved by works" version of the gospel.

2 Peter 3:9 does not say "It is not our Lord's desire or wish that anyone perish". Why did you change "any" to "anyone"??? and who was this spoken to? was it spoken to the reprobate? or believers. You handle the Word of God flippantly, that's why you always end up lost in confusion.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes. God demonstrates His power and even those who oppose Him end up praising Him.

I do not believe satan will ever praise God. I know satan will bow ... but I do not believe satan will ever offer praise to God.

Another example is Nebuchadnezzar. Read Daniel 4. See how highly He regards God once God has directed His life.

We are more than conquerors in Christ. That's an odd phrase...more than conquerors. Why not just conquerors? Because God allows adversity into our lives so that He can overcome them on our behalf by using what the enemy was using to destroy us to give us victory. We have to go no further than, you guessed it, the book of Daniel. The 3 Hebrew children were in quite the predicament. But God used that situation to improve their standing. Same with Daniel. Same with you and me.

God allows evil people to exercise power so He might show Himself strong on our behalf.

yes, I understand this ... when we are going through times of adversity, God works within us to perfect, establish, strengthen, settle us (1 Peter 5:6-11). The chastening of God results in the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who endure (Hebrews 12:6-11).

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[Cameron143]

I do not believe satan will ever praise God. I know satan will bow ... but I do not believe satan will ever offer praise to God.





yes, I understand this ... when we are going through times of adversity, God works within us to perfect, establish, strengthen, settle us (1 Peter 5:6-11). The chastening of God results in the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who endure (Hebrews 12:6-11).

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Does creation praise God? It does. Does it do so with intention? No.

Does Satan praise God? Yes. Does he do so with intentionality? No.

All things exist to glorify God.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I tell someone to stop or they will fall over a cliff. They continue and fall to their death. Did they continue in ignorance? Yes and no. They understood what I said, so they continued knowingly. But they continued because they didn't believe they were actually going to die. They were ignorant of what would actually transpire. Unless you believe they willingly committed suicide.

In the case of Romans 1:18-32, I believe they willingly do not receive truth.

As far as your "suicide" remark, it's kind of a paradox ... "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it" ...

.

 

[OMC]

Does creation praise God? It does. Does it do so with intention? No.

Does Satan praise God? Yes. Does he do so with intentionality? No.

All things exist to glorify God.

Creation does indeed “declare the glory of God” (Psalm 19:1), but Scripture never calls that praise in the intentional sense — it is non‑volitional witness, not worship. Creation reflects God’s glory because He designed it to do so, not because it chooses to.
Satan does not “praise God.”
He acknowledges God’s power (James 2:19), he obeys God’s limits (Job 1–2), and he confesses truth when forced (Mark 1:24), but Scripture never calls any of that praise.
Praise is always volitional, joyful, God‑directed exaltation — something Satan is incapable of.
What Satan does is reluctant recognition, not worship.
Creation displays His glory without intention.
Satan displays His defeat without intention.
Believers display His worth with intention.
That distinction matters, because Scripture reserves true praise for those who love, choose, and delight in God — never for impersonal creation and never for rebellious spirits.

 

[Cameron143]

In the case of Romans 1:18-32, I believe they willingly do not receive truth.

As far as your "suicide" remark, it's kind of a paradox ... "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it" ...

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Sure. There is intentionality on their part. There is also a level of understanding. There is also a level of ignorance, not truly understanding their fate both in this age and the age to come.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Does creation praise God? It does. Does it do so with intention? No.

While I agree creation exhibits God's glory (Psalm 19:1) and God's infinite power (Romans 1:20), I also know that "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now" (Romans 8:22).

Does Satan praise God? Yes. Does he do so with intentionality? No.

I understand what you are saying ... please show me one verse in Scripture which indicates satan, after his fall, ever praised God.

All things exist to glorify God.

Agree.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

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[Cameron143]

Creation does indeed “declare the glory of God” (Psalm 19:1), but Scripture never calls that praise in the intentional sense — it is non‑volitional witness, not worship. Creation reflects God’s glory because He designed it to do so, not because it chooses to.
Satan does not “praise God.”
He acknowledges God’s power (James 2:19), he obeys God’s limits (Job 1–2), and he confesses truth when forced (Mark 1:24), but Scripture never calls any of that praise.
Praise is always volitional, joyful, God‑directed exaltation — something Satan is incapable of.
What Satan does is reluctant recognition, not worship.
Creation displays His glory without intention.
Satan displays His defeat without intention.
Believers display His worth with intention.
That distinction matters, because Scripture reserves true praise for those who love, choose, and delight in God — never for impersonal creation and never for rebellious spirits.

Thought that's what I said, though not as elegantly.

 

[Cameron143]

While I agree creation exhibits God's glory (Psalm 19:1) and God's infinite power (Romans 1:20), I also know that "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now" (Romans 8:22).





I understand what you are saying ... please show me one verse in Scripture which indicates satan, after his fall, ever praised God.





Agree.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

.

I appreciate the discussion, but there is nuance you either don't understand or don't care to.

Grace and peace.

 

[OMC]

Thought that's what I said, though not as elegantly.

Yes, I was helping to clarify your point

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Sure. There is intentionality on their part. There is also a level of understanding. There is also a level of ignorance, not truly understanding their fate both in this age and the age to come.

the same holds true on the part of those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when the gospel of Christ is revealed to them.

The life of the born again one begins in spiritual ignorance. We start out as infants, feeding on the milk of the Word of God (1 Peter 2:2) and mature to full age eating meat (Hebrews 5:14). At that point we should no longer be "children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive" (Ephesians 4:14).

And even when we are no longer tossed to and fro, there is still a "level of ignorance, not truly understanding their fate both in this age and the age to come" because "it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2).

While we may understand our fate, we will never, in this lifetime, be able to fully comprehend what it will be like to be like Him. We may catch glimmers and glimpses when God graciously reveals to us, but to fully understand is beyond our limited capabilities at this point.

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[reneweddaybyday]

I appreciate the discussion, but there is nuance you either don't understand or don't care to.

Grace and peace.

No misunderstanding of nuance by me and if I did not care, I would not engage in the discussion.

hope/pray you have a blessed day.

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[Journey_man]

Paul says we are “justified freely by His grace” (grace = cause), yet he also says we are “justified by faith” (faith = means), and he never merges those two into a single mechanism; instead, he keeps them conceptually separate so that grace remains God’s action and faith remains the instrument by which the sinner receives it.

According to the Bible faith comes from God as a gift.
I know you don't believe what the Bible says, when it goes against what your Denominations Ministers teaches.

The Bible teaches that faith does not originate from inside a person or through good deeds. Ephesians 2:8-9 states that salvation is by grace through faith, and even that faith is a gift from God so no one can boast.

Hebrews 12:2 calls Jesus the "author and perfecter of our faith," meaning he initiates and completes it.

There is no way around these truths, without rejecting Gods Word and making Him a liar.

 

[OMC]

According to the Bible faith comes from God as a gift.
I know you don't believe what the Bible says, when it goes against what your Denominations Ministers teaches.

The Bible teaches that faith does not originate from inside a person or through good deeds. Ephesians 2:8-9 states that salvation is by grace through faith, and even that faith is a gift from God so no one can boast.

Hebrews 12:2 calls Jesus the "author and perfecter of our faith," meaning he initiates and completes it.

There is no way around these truths, without rejecting Gods Word and making Him a liar.

The Bible teaches two truths at the same time:
(1) salvation is “by grace” — God is the cause and source of salvation — and
(2) salvation is “through faith” — the means by which the sinner receives what grace provides; these are never merged into one thing, because Paul keeps them conceptually distinct so that grace remains God’s action and faith remains the human reception.

Now, does Scripture teach that faith is “a gift”? Yes — but not in the way you are claiming.

Ephesians 2:8 does not grammatically say that faith is the gift; the “gift” is salvation by grace, and the Greek demonstrative touto (“that”) is neuter, while “faith” (pistis) and “grace” (charis) are feminine, meaning touto cannot grammatically refer to faith.

Hebrews 12:2 calling Jesus the “author and finisher of faith” means He is the originator of the faith‑path, the pioneer of the way of believing — not that He implants faith into individuals apart from their response to the Word.

Scripture consistently teaches that faith comes by hearing (Romans 10:17), meaning God provides the message, and the human heart responds; God enables, draws, convicts, and enlightens — but He does not “believe for you.”

So the biblical harmony is simple: grace is God’s cause, faith is the human means, and salvation is the gift — not the faith itself. This preserves God’s glory, human responsibility, and Paul’s entire argument in Romans 3–5.

You’re free to disagree with my understanding of Scripture, but you’re not free to accuse me of rejecting God or accuse me of calling Him a liar simply because I don’t accept your interpretation.
Scripture commands us to correct one another with meekness, not accusations (2 Tim 2:24–25).
If you believe I’m wrong, show me the text, show me the context, and show me the Scripture itself — not your frustration.
I will gladly examine the Word with you, but I will not respond to personal attacks. Truth doesn’t need insults to defend it.

 

[Aaron56]

I always appreciate our discussions. Take your time.

I just returned from my trip. I will give this topic my attention. However, it seems this thread went another direction. I may simply send what I write to you via PM's.

Blessings